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Only dorks read the Bible?

Editor: So I'm a dork for reading the Bible? And I'm judgemental for telling you what the Bible says? Hmmm. How convenient for these two articles to be in the paper on the same day. Or, was it a left wing conspiracy to see what would come of it? Well, not to make this a full-blown sermon, but. If one believes in God, then one has to believe in what He says in the Bible. Yes? And if one believes in the Bible, then one has to believe what is said in the Bible. Yes?

So, if the Bible says what it says about killing, or stealing, or lusting, or adultery, or homosexuality and so forth, then one has to abide with what is said. Yes? The simple truth is you either believe or you don't. You either obey God or you don't. When the time comes, each of us will be rewarded with eternal life; in either one place or the other. Finally, how many dorks are in this world? Well, I'm happy to say I'm a dork, because I read the Bible. How about you?

Henry Ramirez

Hanford

(Oct. 27, 2007)

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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 27, 2007 1:44 AM:

" You summed it up nicely Mr. Ramirez: "The simple truth is you either believe or you don't." It is your right to believe in whatever you so desire. However, a belief system does not grant a person a universal monopoly over morality and truth. Each person has her/his own belief system which stipulates how or how not to lead her/his life. I find it great that you own up to your dorkiness and have chosen a belief system that works for you. If you choose to believe in the Bible, then of course you wold logically believe what is written in the Bible. Others choose not to believe in the Bible, and that is their choice to make. That is the beauty of religion, it is based on faith, not on truth, so every standpoint and argument is valid. You are not judgemental for telling us what the Bible says. However, you are judgemental if you condemn others for not believing the same as you. We are all dorks, Mr. Ramirez, believers and non-believers alike. "

Nadine wrote on Oct 27, 2007 2:26 PM:

" I am a dork Henry and PROUD of it! Jesus IS LORD! "

HUMANKIND LOST wrote on Oct 27, 2007 9:15 PM:

" So atheists cannot be dorks, right Scott? I wonder if a Satanist could be a dork? Nah, diversity is the belief system for some, eh Scott? "

I'm a Dork wrote on Oct 28, 2007 11:48 AM:

" Thank-you! Holy Father! I too am a Dork! "

Karen wrote on Oct 28, 2007 11:28 PM:

" VERY COOL, Henry, I totally agree with your letter. You either believe and obey God, or you don't. A few reasons for others’ consideration, as to why I as one individual believe Christianity as Absolute Truth: As the Bible, God’s revelation and instruction manual for man, promises, my life (heart and mind) became transformed when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior; I have a peace in my heart that transcends all understanding despite circumstances; the holy spirit is a constant presence within - like a down payment - that continually confirms my hope of eternal life in heaven. Many religions are based solely on FAITH; however, Christianity is also verifiable as TRUTH based on 1) very personal experience, as I testify in just these three examples, 2) abundant archaeological and historical evidence, and 3) an incredible number of fulfilled Bible prophesies. Christian does not mean perfect/sinless (or judgmental), but forgiven. John 3:16, Romans 1:20. For more truth, check out Christian radio 1130 AM (central Calif. listening area) "

Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 29, 2007 6:06 AM:

" Eh, "HUMANKIND LOST"? Let me repeat myself: We are all dorks, believers and non-believers alike. That includes athiests, satanists, and any other belief system you care to dream up. "

Henry for City Council wrote on Oct 29, 2007 9:54 AM:

" Another well put letter Henry. It always surprises me when groups claiming to be christians decide to pick their favorite parts of the Bible and ignore the parts that offend them. They usually do this by committe. If you are a christian, follow the Bible. It doesn't matter what the council or yearly conference decides - follow the Bible. If your "leaders" are telling you something that is not in the Bible - you are not a christian. That's like claiming to be an American and denying the authority of the Constitution. "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Oct 29, 2007 10:26 AM:

" I'm not kidding - I actually have a magnet on my refrigerator that says "I Love Dorks." Not that it has any relevance to the Letter... Like Henry, I too find it irritating when people look to folks that aren't practicing what they preach as an example of why they should be able to belittle my faith (not criticize, belittling by language used). I've not seem many articles about Muslims, Jews, Buddists that resort to name-calling the majority of practioners because a particular person misrepresents it. There are rabid Zionists, Islamofascist terrorists, peaceful Monks getting into fistfights, and Westboro Baptists out there aplenty to criticize that bring derision on themselves by failing to live their faiths - but no Sentinel articles criticizing Judiasm, Islam, or Buddism as a whole. But its ok for Christianity? The Sentinel posted an opinion of someone whose research for the piece was sitting down with a practitioner that didn't understand a central tenet of his own faith, ignoring countless books on the subject of sin, judgement, and Hell (what the article was about). Maybe I should write criticizing all journalists - I read a Thrifty Nickel once. "

Not so Mad in Nevada at the moment wrote on Oct 29, 2007 11:41 AM:

" That so does not surprise me Devil's Advocate, that you would have that magnet on your fridge. lol. Let me just add my two cents here. While the teachings of God and Christ are perfect and correct. Unfortunately we as people are not. And I think that is where our problems lay. We forget that people have the right to worship as they choose and therefore end up stepping on toes when we try to say that they are wrong in what they believe in their hearts and minds to be true. We are all equal in the eyes of God, no matter our religion. We just have to stand firm in what we know to be true, it's an everlasting battle that is not going to end till Christ's comes again, so in the meantime we just have to continue to fight because there is always going to be someone telling us we're wrong. "

Magenta wrote on Oct 29, 2007 12:31 PM:

" Could the Sentinel come up with some balance on this issue, like do an article on atheism or other belief systems? Your readers are intelligent to know that other ideas exist, and they should be respected. Apparently not enough information has been shown to everyone so they can learn to question things. I never questioned religion either, until my brother said, 'you know, it's all just made up.' And I thought, hmmm, no wonder none of this makes sense. People can believe what they want, but don't knock others for what they believe, or don't. Like the last greeter I saw at Walmart. He said 'welcome to walmart and god bless you.' I don't want to hear that when I go shopping! It's a shame because he's a nice guy, but just doesn't know better I guess. What if I started saying, 'get your dog spayed; there are too many unwanted dogs in the world already.' You might be offended, right? But it's what I believe. Does that mean you want to hear it all the time? Didn't think so. "

BaMzAnGeL wrote on Oct 29, 2007 12:32 PM:

" Well I'm very PROUD to say that I too am a DORK! :) "

So you associate yourself... wrote on Oct 29, 2007 1:28 PM:

" Not only with the "whale of tale" but the connatations associated with the it's etymological generalized term too? O.K. you have the right. "

Alan G. wrote on Oct 29, 2007 2:27 PM:

" I agree with you Magenta, but sometimes I think atheists are more reviled than satanists because we don't have some written doctrine and therefore we can't be accused of not following that doctrine. It's hard to have a debate with an atheist because the burden of proof is on the theist. It's not necessary to prove a negative (i.e. atheists don't have to prove that god doesn't exist). Up until the age of 8 or 9, I was under the impression that there were no other choices. I had the hardest time grasping the god concept and it was until my neighbor told me that her mom didn't believe in god, that a light went off in my head. Atheists come in all political affiliations, although many people think atheists are all liberal secular progressives (I'll take the shot). A dork is a dork, no matter what they believe. "

Angie wrote on Oct 29, 2007 2:35 PM:

" I'm a dork too! "

JESSE wrote on Oct 29, 2007 3:55 PM:

" LEFT WING CONSPIRACY?// SEE TO YOU IT ISN'T ABOUT RELIGION BUT POLITICS. THE 2 ARE DIFFERENT SUBJST...ODVIOUSLY SPOKEN LIKE A REAL RIGHT WINGER "

Josie wrote on Oct 29, 2007 6:03 PM:

" I'm a dork and loving it. I have such a peace in me since I have accept Jesus into my life. But I still make mistakes but it is good to know I can go to HIM for forgiveness. God Bless is what I want to hear, instead of other things people could be saying. Have a great and bless day! "

Omega wrote on Oct 30, 2007 10:45 AM:

" Well, if all you are Bible dorks I guess that makes me a Bible geek. I find it a little disappointing how most people sharing my belief system are so naive about it. The Bible in itself is a wonderful collection of ancient books. The problem nowadays is people want to grasp its concepts without taking into account the cultural and political aspects of the different times. People end up beliving something they don't understand. "

PATRIOTIC BLOGGER wrote on Oct 30, 2007 1:30 PM:

" Tolerance and diversity, Tolerance and diversity! "

PATRIOTIC BLOGGER wrote on Oct 30, 2007 1:31 PM:

" Hey Alan...don't you mean that a light went ON in your head? "

Alan G. wrote on Oct 30, 2007 4:52 PM:

" Thanks Patriotic Blogger, the light did indeed go ON. I was still getting over the flu when I posted that. I wonder if "flu-blogging" is anything like "drunk-blogging"? "

come on wrote on Oct 31, 2007 9:14 AM:

" There are a handfull of you out there - you know who you are - who seem to use this forum as your own (almost) instant messaging service. You end up talking amongst yourselves and making "witty" comments that have nothing to do with the topic posted. Get over yourselves. Use an IM site. Not everyone is impressed with your droll sense of humor and your little inside jokes. "

Not so mad in Nevada at the moment wrote on Oct 31, 2007 10:49 AM:

" To Partriotc Blogger- so you can preach tolerance and diversity when it suits your purpose? "

PATRIOTIC BLOGGER wrote on Oct 31, 2007 2:45 PM:

" Are you saying that tolerance and diversity is NOT patriotic? "

Not so mad in Nevada at the moment wrote on Oct 31, 2007 5:17 PM:

" No- I'm all for tolerance and diversity. But how can you have it here but not when it came to the discussion about spanish speaking people? ( which I know isn't the topic for this discussion) I just have a hard time with that. It seems a little hypocritical depending on whether or not you are trying to live the teachings of Jesus. ( Which I'm not saying that you are- or that your're not. I'm not trying to step on toes- I'm just saying) I think depending on how you chose to believe whether it is Christian or not tolerance and diversity should apply to everything not just this. Because I believe that no matter who you are you have the right to be treated equally and that common kindness has kinda gone down the drain. "

manofgod wrote on Oct 31, 2007 8:12 PM:

" way too go Rameriaz. too scott tucker and Human kind lost. IT is not judgemental. Only God desides. you get right or you get left end of story. IT is not some kind of oh I belive in fairys. it is faith through Jesus CHrist that sets you free. and only jesus christ. son of GOd. "

Justin M. wrote on Nov 1, 2007 11:43 AM:

" I'm gay and I still read the Bible. But I'm far from being a dork. But if reading the bible and loving GOD makes me a dork, then I guess I'm a big Gay Dork... "

CHOICE to strenghthen your character wrote on Nov 1, 2007 11:54 AM:

" God give you te choice to decide.The only things God gives you is the distinctive capacity for initiating your own conduct rather than relying on mere stimulation and reaction, it is called FREE-WILL.Personal faith does always give a person, a genuine prospect for solving human problems-only education and individual initiative can do that.People often interpret their experiences differently, social engineering and government regulation and regimentation do not work in raising just and right humans.God did create the scheme of the "Tower of Babal" and thats why there are so many individual and cultural differences?Your core spirtuality comes from the home,you either learned about most ethics at home or not.By the time you are in school it is too late...if you have parents who are not ethically saavy in providing good and legal examples to their off-spring...the results are large groups of people suffering from thir own identity crisis&what can society give me.At school there is another chance to learn social ethics but to deny free-will most people have trouble distinguishing between morality and value theories.Because people can be wrong, this is why they can disagree with each other, for better and for worse.God gives you the choice to live lifeW/HIM. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Nov 2, 2007 5:55 AM:

" Dear manofgod, Don't you mean that only YOUR ('your', as in belonging only to manofgod) god decides YOUR fate? MY god/belief system/set of morals will decide MY fate. Please do not universally apply your constructs to everyone else. "

sorry Scott wrote on Nov 2, 2007 2:16 PM:

" God does not get his authority through your belief in Him. Someday EVERY knee will bow - even yours - will you be surprised, shocked or disappointed? I plan on being ready. I don't believe in our president. I reject his values and decisions - but he is still in authority. My rejecting him will not make him go away or cease to exist. There is one God, Scott Tucker and someday you will come to see this - but it will be too late for unbelievers. Now it's your turn - make some snide, condescending comment. Laugh if you wish. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Nov 2, 2007 2:43 PM:

" ..."manofgod" is expressing his belief system, Scott, and he has a right to. He first complimented you and "humankind lost," then proceeded to express his own beliefs. You seem offended to be mentioned in the same blog for what reason? Where is your professed stance on 'tolerance' and 'diversity?' In an earlier blog you stated "we are all dorks . . . " and then you say in your latest blog "Please do not universally apply your constructs to everyone else." So, its all right for YOU to call me (and others) ‘dorks' universally, as you put it, but YOU don't like it when you believe someone applies their "constructs' to you. I am sorry, Scott, but this kind of "do as I say, not as I do" attitude smacks of elitism and shows that people who profess tolerance and diversity don't really ‘walk the walk,' so to speak. I'm sure you will correct me if I am wrong: please do. "

OMG wrote on Nov 2, 2007 4:07 PM:

" Interesting forum here. God's Word, the Bible, was given by inspiration from God, penned by man but came from God. And in it, we read that God's ways and thoughts are higher than mans ways and thoughts. Also it reads that God's will is that all men are saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Truth being God's Word. Anything else is a LIE. Yes we have free will, to choose truth or lies to rule our life. He gave us a way to have a relationship with him. Jesus said, as stated in the Bible, that he is the way the truth and the life and that no man comes to the Father but by him. Sorry Scott said that all will bow the knee to the Lord Jesus Christ; correct. Some bow now... EVERYBODY will bow eventually. Mr. Tucker; Christians, such as manofGod, don't judge others, God in His Word does that. We are just a mouthpiece for God. And Alan G. the light is not on. Until one accepts THE LIGHT they are in darkness -again, not my words but GODs. "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Nov 2, 2007 8:09 PM:

" Respecting people with beliefs different from my own isn't too fifficult; its overcoming the fear I feel for them that makes me push past the passivity of socially-correct interaction that doesn't cause ripples of re-evaluation. Because if you're right, and cool earth is all that waits, then my words were nothing but another buzzing fly in the life of someone now beyond caring. But if convenient conviction were overturned in the sudden realization of willful ignorance and unquenching fire, what would be my excuse for not incessantly buzzing about your ears? Can I say that I've ever loved another if I wouldn't lift a finger to prevent a destruction that I believe with my whole being is coming? I don't think so. "If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for." - Charles Spurgeon (whoa -am I repeating myself?) "

to not so mad wrote on Nov 2, 2007 11:20 PM:

" I have noticed that many people of "Faith" are so only during church services. After that, they go back to being themselves as they really are Hypocrites. And then next Sunday when they enter God's House and stand before Him all they can do is bow their head in shame. If you are going to read the Bible, READ IT but more so LIVE IT. Don't give money to the poor on Sunday and then the rest of the week write in blogs about how lazy you think they are. Don't volunteer to give out free food or toys at Christmas and then comment on how you think most of "them" were undocumented. Peace starts with a smile, not with a complaint. There is very little kindness left in the world and sadly also in Hanford. "

Joe Megill wrote on Nov 3, 2007 4:19 AM:

" There are beautiful, caring,giving people who do not believe in God. There are thousands of religions on this planet so if there is only one true religion than there are thousands of religions who are worshiping false Gods? You do not have to believe in God to be a good person. More people have been murdered in Religious wars than any other cause so why believe in Gods or religion? "

Alan G. wrote on Nov 3, 2007 10:14 AM:

" Well, if it's in a book, it MUST be true! "

Scott Tucker wrote on Nov 3, 2007 7:23 PM:

" Alejandro, I can only assume from manofgod's misuse of the word "too" in his first sentence, that his use of the same word in his second sentence was also incorrect. I do not think that he was complimenting me, and after reading the rest of his comment, it is rather obvious that he was not sending a "way to go!" in my direction. And please remember, that it was not I who called you a dork, it was Mr. Ramirez who asked if there were any other dorks out there. What I meant when I wrote that we are all dorks is simply that each and every one of us has our own belief system and set of morals that guides the way we live our lives. It is faith (or lack thereof, which is in own right a faith system) that makes us all dorks. My line has never been "do as I say, not as I do." I applaud those who believe wholeheartedly in their belief systems. Just don't judge me if I choose not to subscribe to your way of thinking. You have been corrected. "

nick wrote on Nov 4, 2007 12:23 PM:

" You are a dork if you think the bible is correct! "

Not so mad in Nevada at the moment wrote on Nov 4, 2007 1:47 PM:

" To "Devil's Advocate"- while I respect your desire to want to bring people unto Christ so that they too be able to live with God again, I think that we need to be careful in the ways that we do that. For me personal standing in the streets crying repentance isn't the best way of that. I think that if we are truly converted ourselves that just being who we are and being a good example sometimes is the best way to do that. It's naturally a part of our lives and our countance and people are going to say _Hey something is different about you. Why is that and you can say hey this is why- this is what I believe, this is who I am, and hopefully they will have a desire to follow that example. Jesus Christ was our greastest example in love, kindess, and service. And if we follow that example I think that people will be more likely to want to hear His message. "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Nov 5, 2007 7:58 AM:

" Dear "Not So Mad," you say tomato, I say tomato (that doesn't work so well written out, does it?). Warning bells go of in my head when people start discussing their faith and its application with the words "For me,", "personally,", and "I think." Perhaps we can discuss the scriptural bases for our individual approaches to evangelism and motivations for various levels of aggressive pursuit over email. Though for clarification here: were you referring to my previous comment as "crying repentence in the street" or were you referring to when I ACTUALLY do street-preaching? Or some hypothetical situation? "

Not so mad in Nevada at the moment wrote on Nov 5, 2007 5:00 PM:

" To "DA" I am going to call you that because the other seems really long in a response. Anyway.. I was talking more of a hypothetical situation. But I have found :) that nothing turns people away faster than someone who is telling them they are going to hell for what they believe or don't believe. People don't generally respond well to someone they feel is being pushy. I think that has a lot to do with the rebel inside us that says "Who do you think you are telling me that" I think(there's that word again) that it can be done in a more loving way. I can tell you of some experiences that I have had with situations like this if you would like. Maybe that can go along with our other conversation. "

Alan G. wrote on Nov 6, 2007 11:38 AM:

" When I encounter someone who brings up god or Jesus in the first ten minutes of our conversation, it sets off an alarm in my head and I can't get away fast enough. It's just awfully presumptuous of a person to think they are so familiar with me that they can ask such a personal question during idle chit chat. At the last company I worked for, there was a new hire in an entry-level position who was talking to a senior co-worker about Jesus and being saved, etc... I just kept going, but could tell he had a captive audience. Over the course of the week, I started seeing a pattern of behavior and realized this guy had no self-control over his proselytizing. Some people are just so compelled to preach, that they don't stop to think about the appropriateness of their actions. I find this a lot with the "Born Again's" and evangelicals. I find this compulsion to be similar to smoking or picking your nose in public. This is a general observation and not aimed at any particular blogger. "

I'm a DORK wrote on Nov 6, 2007 11:59 AM:

" I am very proud to say I am a dork that reads the bible. However, I feel one of the most important leasons I have learned from the bible are not the things I should not do rather the things I can do that will please God. For example judgement! The bible clearly says we will be judged the same way we judge others. I guess that means it is not up to us to judge anyone regardless of what religion the choose to practice or not. As Christians we should not judge anyone!! Also I learned that what pleases God the most is for us to love and be compassionate to everyone. I never read the part that said we must only do this for fellow Christians it is the way we are supposed to treat everyone, once again regardless of their religious choice!! I also struggle with Christianity for many of the reasons people stated but in reality it is not God I have a struggle with it is the humans who teach and share the word of God and their interrperation of the bible. "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Nov 6, 2007 3:40 PM:

" “Not So Mad” – Two posts back you said, “Jesus Christ was our greatest example in love, kindness, and service.” So how did Jesus evangelize? Matt. 4:17 says “From that time on Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Luke 4:43 “...but He said to them “I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent.” He certainly didn’t spend a lot of time sitting back waiting for people to come to him; he went out and found them. And the first words of the great commission are “Go and preach,” not “Sit and wait for somebody to ask you what they must do to be saved.” Clearly, telling someone they are damned, a criminal against the law of God, can be challenging when you’re trying not to upset them, but it can be done if you genuinely care about them and let them see it on your face and hear it in your voice, and let them observe the humility of someone just as guilty as they are. "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Nov 6, 2007 4:04 PM:

" Also, “Not So Mad,” I would never tell someone they are going to hell for what they do or don't believe, because its not true. The reason we GO to hell isn't because we believe anything in particular. It's because we've chosen to defy God, to treat him with contempt, denying his existence when it is plainly observed in creation in order to give reign to our own selfish desires and pride. We deserve hell so that's where we are going. Now, if you were to ask me how to be saved from hell, meaning to AVOID what is rightly due, then belief becomes important. But remember, "even demons believe in god, and shudder." Of course, while choosing to believe itself is important, it pales in significance next to Christ in love choosing to take the deserved judgement of the whole world on Himself to give us the opportunity to do so. Its an important distinction: Rebels against God go to hell period -doesn't matter what they believe; rebels that see the error of their ways that turn back to God and trust that Christ took their punishment - they gratefully avoid it. "

Not so mad in Nevada at the moment wrote on Nov 6, 2007 6:10 PM:

" Devil's Advocate- I sense that I hit a nerve here. That was not my intention. And I apoligize if I have offended you. Yes Jesus did teach the people but it was always in a loving way, never forceful. He taught through his service, miracles and parables that he told the people. A lot of the time people would come to Him. They sought Him out. It was a word of mouth type of thing. And I never once said that you told people they were going to hell for what they believe. I was using that as an example of some of the experiences that I have had. I should have clarified that. And while yes we are to share the things that we know of Him with others we need to remember to follow that same loving example that He gave us. I am not saying you shouldn't. That would be hypocritical considering how many missionaries my church has out preaching the gospel. I wouldn't be where I am at now if someone hadn't shared their beliefs with me. And it's something I am very grateful for. "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Nov 8, 2007 9:36 AM:

" Not offended at all. You've been offended with how people have presented the gospel to you, I get that. It’s easy to be over-zealous, or just plain get the theology wrong (If I had a dollar for every time I heard somebody say, “If you don’t believe in God, you’re going to hell”…). Plus, some folks are self-righteous or judgmental (Jesus had some things to say about that, I recall.) and who wants to listen to someone with attitude. Alan G. made a point that some like to hold others hostage and speak even when others are clearly refusing to listen – what’s the point of that? In fact, remembering my atheistic days, I had a “Christian” threaten to pound me for being as vocal with my atheism as his classmate-evangelist (whom was in no way offensive to anyone). "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Nov 8, 2007 9:47 AM:

" I would like to challenge your conception of Jesus, however – the part about never being forceful. The Bible doesn’t tell us much about inflection, so in some cases its hard to say. But based on language alone, I can say that Jesus was forceful with some Pharisees, some teachers of the law and/or lawyers, some Herodians, some scribes, some moneychangers, some sacrifice merchants, some demons, and Simon-Peter. Additionally, I have at least a page of verses discussing the wrath of God, and a few verses about his jealousy. And the number of times God gets angry in the Bible isn’t exactly single digits. So yes, God is love - but sometimes loving includes some unpleasantness. You love your kids - so imagine if someone were to hurt one of your kids, wouldn't anger would be an appropriate feeling and wouldn't forceful action be an appropriate response? And God demonstrates that many times in the Bible in relation to His kids. "

Christian folk wrote on Nov 8, 2007 8:39 PM:

" people who can't accept the challenges of Holy Living that the bible presents usually are your athiest. With all the technologies and man made things of this world the distraction from God increases and people are less likley to have an interest in our creater. In my opinion it is very difficult to deny that there is a God. Hey God sound alot more logical than a Big Bang!! "

Not so mad in Nevada at the moment wrote on Nov 8, 2007 9:37 PM:

" Ok, ok, yes there were times when Jesus had to chastise the people, but when all possible he was loving about it and not forceful. Look at how he treated the woman that came to Him after committing adultry. He wasn't forcefully with her. And yes I totallly understand the wrath of God but we weren't talking about Him. We were talking about how Jesus taught the people. They are two seperate people, the Holy Ghost is also a seperate being, They work together in one purpose. And don't your kids respond better if you respond to them in love not anger. Yes I understand getting angry, but I know that I respond better when someone is showing the way in a loving matter. And that is what Jesus would rather us do when we are sharing our beliefs with others. And the Bible may not come out say ok, I'm angry now or I'm happy but when you read it can't you feel that? When you are in tune with the spirit the Holy Ghost will help you decern the emotions that were being felt. "

Alan G. wrote on Nov 9, 2007 10:08 AM:

" To "Christian Folk" - Being atheist has nothing to do with not being able to live with the challenges of holy living. If that were the case, then most Christians would fall into the category of "Convenient Christian", those who treat the bible like a buffet where they pick and choose what they like and ignore the parts they don't like. And there's always that great safety net of asking for forgiveness. I would guess that 90% of people fall into that category. This is evident when you take a look at how many butts are in the pews on Sunday morning, which I would guess is less than 10%. Being an atheist is more a function of the capacity for abstract thought. Statistically, atheists have a higher intelligence than people with a strong religious faith. It's not that atheists can't live holy lives, it's that they simply don't acknowledge anything holy exists. If you want TRUE examples of people living holy lives, then look to the Amish. There's a group who are familiar with Holy Living. They do it better than most. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Nov 9, 2007 2:19 PM:

" Alan, Alan, Alan . . . Your comment about atheists having a higher intelligence is an example of junk science accompanied by considerable controversy. If you researched this properly, you neglected to mention that it was a Danish professor of developmental psychology, Helmuth Nyborg, who took a data sample of about 7000 individuals from America. Honesty begs this disclosure: "The Danish professor is a highly controversial academician who has previously provoked outrage by concluding that White people are generally more intelligent than Black people, and in 2002 that men have a higher average intelligence than women – while there are more men than women with very low intelligence." (citation: http://danish.newsvine.com/_news/2007/02/05/554043-professor-atheists-are-more-intelligent-than-believers). So I must ask this, Alan: Do you believe in just one study from this man or ALL of his studies and conclusions? Or, are you just picking and choosing what you want us to believe? "

Gina wrote on Nov 9, 2007 3:19 PM:

" I am very thankful to be a dork...I am also thankful that Jesus (the only perfect being..sinless)died on a cross for our sins so that we can daily have a relationship with him.. (Choices are crutial) To receive the gift of repentance and activate the holy spirit within each of us.. That is why the bible says to aknowledge him.. accept him.. because he is the way.. the truth and the life... and we may daily learn the kindom mysteries.. which are new everyday. Glory be to God. "

Alan G. wrote on Nov 9, 2007 4:43 PM:

" Alejandro, Alejandro, Alejandro... You cited Nyborg, not me. There have been many studies on this subject and while people may find fault or deem most of these studies imperfect (it's difficult to measure internal spirituality), you cannot deny the inverse correlation between religious faith and intelligence. When you view the graphs, country by country and taking into account the wealth of those various countries, the graphs basically chart the same. It doesn't matter whether you chart religion vs. IQ or GDP per capita vs. IQ, the angle of the dangle is virtually identical my friend. Therefore, it is not necessary for me to believe or disbelieve any of Nyborg's studies. We can exclude him altogether and it won't matter. "

Not so mad in Nevada at the moment wrote on Nov 9, 2007 9:50 PM:

" Alan G... do you really believe what you posted in your last comment? That just seems so sad to me. Although I do get what you said about "Convenient Christians". I have never understood how it could be remotely ok to sin all week go to church on Sunday, ask for forgiveness and then do it again the next week. Same with death bed confessions. If you say you believe something you should do your best to live it all the time so you don't need to ask for forgiveness. At least that is what I think. And I really try my best to live the things I believe and I attend all of my church meetings, even the ones in the middle of the week not just on Sunday. And I bet the percentage of "butts" in the pew is a little higher than less than 10%. "

Laura Dial wrote on Nov 10, 2007 5:06 PM:

" Born and raised a "DORK" SO?? I sin, you sin, we all sin...in the end we all win..I'll stay a dork thank you! "

Evil Spotter wrote on Nov 11, 2007 1:42 PM:

" Christians have been called many names, including 4 letter words other than dork. Why do so called Christians accept it, and even proudly claim 'I'm a dork too!'. Why don't you substitute the other names Christians have been called, such as 'I'm proud to be a **** ****, arent you one too', or 'your darn right I'm a bible beleiving ****, and proud of it'. Your way of thinking just baffles me. Start calling people on it. Most of the time the name callers are the same ones that preach tolerance and acceptance. Name calling is unacceptable to these people, unless of course they are doing it themselves. Don't let them get away with it. BTW, have any of you people claiming to be 'Dorks' bothered to look up what that is in the dictionary??? "

Magenta wrote on Nov 11, 2007 3:33 PM:

" Man, I am so tired of this thread. Are Alan and I the only logical people in this town? Fundies, keep living your fairy tale life. But keep it to yourself, as I shall keep my nonbelief to myself. We'll never get anywhere just going back and forth here. You'll never convince me there is stuff worthwhile of believing in, and I will likely never convince you that all you believe in is pretend, so let's move on. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Nov 11, 2007 6:13 PM:

" Alan, etc. I have always, always believed in and appreciate your honesty. I guess your education didn't include that fact that one can easily lie with statistics and manipulate data to suit one's own needs. I drafted a two-page response to your rebuttal using many references and sources but will not need it because I know I will not change your point of view. Suffice it to say that your simple "take a look at the graphs" method of inquiry is not scientific and is biased upon your belief system, or rather the lack of it. When does the WEALTH of a country reflect upon its people's religious beliefs? And you completely dodged the question I posed to you concerning your opinion on Nyborg and his conclusions. I also asked you: "...are you just picking and choosing what you want us to believe?" Now I have my answer by your silence on the matter. "

Alan G. wrote on Nov 12, 2007 10:02 AM:

" Alejandro, thank goodness you didn't post your two page reply to my rebuttal. I appreciate your well-researched posts, but my god, man! Two pages would have left me overloaded with links and citations. Then I would have been accused of not responding point-by-point. My silence only indicates that I didn't check the Sentinel over the weekend. You say I didn't answer your question re Nyborg and his various conclusions, but I did answer by saying "Therefore, it is not necessary for me to believe or disbelieve any of Nyborg's studies. We can exclude him altogether and it won't matter." You're trying to align me with his controversial opinions which could be considered racist and sexist in order to weaken my position. Are the studies controversial and disputable? Yes! Can the prosecution and defense put up two expert witnesses with conflicting theories? Yes! I guess we can leave it at that. I am aware that statistics and data can be manipulated. Regardless, I will once again stipulate that internal spirituality is difficult to measure and these studies will always be disputed. Word limit is up. "

Yes Evil Spotter...they didn't look up it's meaning... wrote on Nov 12, 2007 10:08 AM:

" on October 29th...I posted they had the right to associate themselves with the connotation of it's etymological definition and choose to ignore its original meaning. It' floating their boat now. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Nov 12, 2007 3:15 PM:

" Thanks for the quick response Alan. When you boldly proclaimed: "Statistically, atheists have a higher intelligence than people with a strong religious faith" and then you justified it based upon looking at some graphs and correlating it with wealth is not, as you put it, "two expert witnesses with conflicting theories." Expert? Not even close. Those statements either need to be backed up or relegated to the horsepuckey pile. If you want to make a point that is sound, use sound logic, and back it up with intelligence so we can believe your thesis. If not, well, it just becomes unsubstantiated gossip and heresay. And I understand that Magenta is tired, but I am not sure I ‘pretend' to know what she wants us all to ‘move on' to. Guess she wants the thread to end, eh? "

Alan G. wrote on Nov 12, 2007 10:33 PM:

" Alejandro, the use of the conflicting experts analogy wasn't meant to suggest I am an expert, nor are you. Perhaps you should study up on Burnham P. Beckwith's "The Effect Of Intelligence On Religious Faith" Free Inquiry, Spring 1986. In this essay he reviewed:" (1)sixteen studies of the correlation between individual measures of student intelligence and religiosity, all but three of which reported an inverse correlation. (2) five studies reporting that student bodies with high average IQ and/or SAT scores are much less religious than inferior student bodies;(3)three studies reporting that geniuses (IQ 150+) are much less religious than the general public (Average IQ, 100), and one dubious study,(4)seven studies reporting that highly successful persons are much less religious in belief than are others; and (5) eight old and four new Gallup polls revealing that college alumni (average IQ about 115) are much less religious in belief than are grade-school pollees." A few of the historical studies he pulled from included: William S. Ament, 1927, Lehman and Witty, 1931, Kelley and Fisk, 1951, Ann Roe, 1953, Francis Bello, 1954, Jack Chambers, 1964 and so on. I'm interested in hearing any studies suggesting the opposite. Oops, word limit "

Not so mad in Nevada the moment wrote on Nov 13, 2007 1:29 PM:

" Alan G. - Now I haven't read any studies or anything on whether or not religious people aren't as smart as others but is that or is it that when people are successful and things are going well that they seem to turn less to God then when they are in the middle of a crisis? Because even I have been guilty of this that when things are going badly I am on my knees all the time asking for help but when things are going better sometimes I forget to be thankful for those blessings that I recieved. "

By Experience wrote on Nov 13, 2007 1:55 PM:

" Through desperation I believe most of us will come to that place to know the Lord of all Lords (read the bible). Some of you are not there but I encourage you that when you do get there (Every knee will bow and every tongue confess) that you will seek him and find him in your everyday life.. He is there now, but you do not see him. I can tell you from experience that I did not see him either until I came to desperate times and invited him (Jesus)to take over in my life. I hope all will not be as stubborn as myself. "

vicki souza wrote on Nov 13, 2007 2:18 PM:

" I'M A DORK, I'M A DORK!!! AND ONE DAY ALL THOSE WHO DON'T BELIVE, WILL BELIEVE! IN GOD'S WORDS, " EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS, THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD." "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Nov 13, 2007 5:12 PM:

" Alan, ALAN! I never expected you to be a full-blown left-wing socialist! A self-proclaimed atheist, yes. You proudly cite the universally discredited and politically-motivated author B. P. Beckwith who wrote: "The Case for Liberal Socialism" (by Beckwith, Burnham P., Exposition Press, Hicksville, NY, 1976) and "The Economic Theory of a Socialist Economy" (Beckwith, Burnham P., Stanford Univ. Press, Stanford, CA, 1949). This chap praised Marxism and the communist movement and advocated world socialization. He himself did no scientific inquiry, but wrote a biased review of 43 questionable ( and extremely OLD, I might add) studies for the atheist- leftist MAGAZINE: Council for Secular Humanism's "Free Inquiry." And even Beckwith himself conceded that it was easy to find fault with the studies he reviewed, stating "for all were imperfect." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence). Junk science disappoints, and junk pseudoscientists are very disappointing. Bias is what bias does. Why don't we let the real expert witness decide, Alan: the reader! "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Nov 13, 2007 9:53 PM:

" My whole life I was praised by my teachers, parents, and friends for having a sharp mind, a quick wit, and well-above-average intellegence. Which was ... true - but I was born that way, it wasn't an accomplishment or anything. I didn't deserve praise. All those well-meaning observations just became fodder for my pride. I was usually right about things, so it became pretty easy to confuse "this is true so I believe it" with "I believe this so it is true." (I don't believe I'm better than anyone, if anything wasting a gift like that to stroke my ego makes me as big a loser as they come.) Anyway, my personal experience is that a pretty good number of my peers with similar smartitude suffered from the same vice. Interestingly, Christianity requires that people not worship themselves, so it can be difficult for people with ability, however the ability manifests - so strength becomes weakness, really. Believing the Bible is true is easy when you don't start reading with the presupposition that it needs to be disproven, maybe even evaluating with the attitude of "what if this is true?". "

Not so mad in Nevada at the moment wrote on Nov 14, 2007 1:20 AM:

" Hey "DA" I was wondering where you went... the last sentence in your post.... I think that can apply to another book in question.... yes, no, maybe? :) "

Alan G. wrote on Nov 14, 2007 10:35 AM:

" Yes Alejandro, I subscribe to all political leanings and moral shortcomings of all authors, scientists, politicians and historical figures that I quote. It's pretty safe to say we all do, if we follow your logic. I was hoping you'd come back with something a little stronger than "Junk Science!" "Socialist!" and a link to Wikipedia. You sir, are the expert and "I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across floors of silent seas..." - T.S. Eliot (Anglican expatriate smoker, sometimes accused of being anti-Semitist). "




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