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First Rights: Guantanamo trials fail the Nuremberg test

With preparations begun for the first military-commissions trial for detainees at Guantanamo -- six "high-level" prisoners who could get the death penalty -- the customary attacks on the fairness of the proceedings there are mounting here and abroad. Adding to the discord is the refusal of Brig. Gen. Thomas Hartmann, legal adviser for the military commissions, to exclude any evidence against the defendants that has been extracted through waterboarding.

Particularly troublesome to the Bush administration's continued insistence that there are careful standards of due process at Guantanamo Bay was the resignation last October of Col. Morris Davis, former chief prosecutor for the military commissions at Guantanamo.

In an article for the Los Angeles Times (Dec. 10), he wrote he had "concluded that full, fair and open trials were not possible under the current system."

Precipitating Davis' act of conscience was the supervisory appointment over him of Defense Department General Counsel William J. Haynes, long criticized for having been instrumental in authorizing what are euphemistically called "coercive interrogation techniques" on terrorism suspects, some of which are purportedly torture.

Before Haynes became Davis' supervisor, Davis, while still chief prosecutor, had told Haynes there might be some acquittals during the Guantanamo Bay trial. But, as Davis told The Nation (March 10, 2008), Haynes response was:

"Wait a minute, we can't have acquittals. If we've been holding these guys for so long, how can we explain letting them get off? We've got to have convictions."

Indeed, a military lawyer, Navy Lt. Cmdr. Charlie Swift, told me that when he was assigned to a detainee at Guantanamo Bay, he was ordered to represent him by obtaining a confession from him.

This presumption of guilt at Guantanamo (not only in that case) hardly squares with how we describe our rule of law to the world.

Was Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates, a marked improvement over Donald Rumsfeld, comfortable over the resignation of former chief prosecutor Davis? There's been no comment. As Attorney General Michael Mukasey is finding out, it's hard to maintain one's own reputation for fairness while serving in this administration.

Davis recalls that Haynes told him that the forthcoming military commissions trial "will be the Nuremberg of our time" -- referring to the 1945 tribunals where the dread defendants included such prominent Nazis as Hermann Goering, Albert Speer, Joachim von Ribbentrop and Rudolf Hess.

In Sen. Christopher Dodd's superb book, "Letters from Nuremberg: My Father's Narrative of a Quest for Justice" (Crown, 2007), he quotes his father, Thomas Dodd, who became the No. 2 prosecutor in the American team at Nuremberg:

"Those of us who were privileged to serve at the Nuremberg Trial are proud of the entire proceeding. ... Every right of the defendants was scrupulously observed.

They were given every possible opportunity to make every explanation and every possible defense.

"Witnesses were obtained for them merely at their request. Documents were made available, library facilities were at their disposal, and throughout every hour of the trial they were afforded every opportunity to answer every charge."

As others and I have reported, the procedures at Guantanamo -- by glaring contrast -- are the very opposite of those at Nuremberg. The Nazis had vigorous lawyers waging their defense; they were able to talk to lawyers in private without a video camera watching; and all their correspondence and notes were not handed over to the military.

And that's only part of the utter mockery of due process at Guantanamo. But at Nuremberg, American prosecutor Thomas Dodd said of that trial: "This was a demonstration of judicial process honestly at work. I saw it take place -- this moral victory -- from day to day, slowly but surely in the dock and at the defense tables."

But the Bush administration (reported in the Feb. 16, 2008, Economist) has actually authorized the State Department, "in a memo to American embassies," to suggest that the military commissions "be compared to the Nuremberg trials, partly because no one fussed when the Nazis got the death penalty and partly because, say the generals, legal protections (at Guantanamo) will be greater than at Nuremberg." Does Condoleezza Rice really believe that?

In a lead editorial (Feb. 12), Financial Times nailed Guantanamo as "a surrender of the rule of law in the face of jihad totalitarianism. The shameful collusion of the U.S. Congress in helping the administration revamp the military tribunals after the Supreme Court revoked them (Hamdan v. Rumsfield, 2006) cannot disguise that." And this is being done in our name.

Nat Hentoff is a nationally renowned authority on the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights and author of many books, including "The War on the Bill of Rights and the Gathering Resistance" (Seven Stories Press, 2004).

(March 12, 2008)

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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 12, 2008 12:26 PM:

" "This presumption of guilt at Guantanamo (not only in that case) hardly squares with how we describe our rule of law to the world." Well written, Mr. Hentoff. And before you all start throwing "Two-Plus-Two-Is-Five," "God-Is-On-Our-Side," "War-Will-Make-Us-Safe" arguments at me, please know that my support of Hentoff's article does not mean that I support terrorism. It means that I support the value of due process of the law and human rights -- our rights.
"

Devil's Advocate wrote on Mar 12, 2008 1:21 PM:

" Ok. I've had enough of this. Its time to close Gitmo. All of these terrorists should be packed up, put on a plane, and released. Preferably somewhere over the middle of the Atlantic. "

The Oracle Says... wrote on Mar 12, 2008 4:17 PM:

" and what about the rights of the 3 thousand victims of 9-11? Beirut barracks bombing? Cole bombing? Nicholas Berg getting his head sawed off on TV? There should not be a GITMO facility..These people should have been killed on the battlefield, AFTER extracting every ounce of information from them. These are not uniformed soldiers of some country we are at war with. They are terrorists, who answer to nobody except their warped idea of Islam...And that idea people, is that either you believe as they do,or you MUST die..period, end of story, no negotiation. Yet liberals want to bestow upon these miscreants, all of OUR justice system, when they were not captured on US Soil, nor are they US citizens. Why do they rate that? Patton said it best..There is 1 principle of war that is not subject to change, and that is to inflict the maximum amount of death and destruction on the enemy, in the least amount of time. AMEN "

The Oracle Says... wrote on Mar 12, 2008 4:54 PM:

" ....UPDATE.....They just cut off the fingers of 5 captured contractors they have held for a year, and delivered them to authorities. Shame on them...They are really in trouble now...They are violating the geneva convention...Maybe we can get one of those worthless U.N. resolutions and denounce them. But you know, they have rights too..so if we capture them, we can give them their rights...to choose....Hung or shot "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 13, 2008 9:37 AM:

" When you combine this quote: "...you believe as they do, or you MUST die..period, end of story, no negotiation." with this quote: "...so if we capture them, we can give them their rights...to choose....Hung or shot", the thought process of extremists becomes abundantly (and in this case, ironically) clear. For those of you reading this, do not succumb to such twisted logic. War does not make us safer. Support human rights and the right of due process of law. If we do not support human rights, we are, as exemplified by the warped logic of the quotes above, no better than the terrorists who want to attack us. "

jeff wrote on Mar 13, 2008 10:41 AM:

" Scott has a good point. You don’t see extremist groups attacking, denouncing, arguing or fighting with Scandinavian countries. They tend to only attack and fight with countries that try and control them. Russia and The US come to mind. It kind of reminds me of another group of people who fought with their government so they could feel free to worship any god or gods they wished and to not have to pay taxes that did nothing for them. "

BDG wrote on Mar 13, 2008 2:51 PM:

" There are some major misperceptions in this article, and a good editor should take the time to correct them.
1. Under the Commissions system, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the accused's guilty. There is a presumption of innoncence.
2. There was no right to appeal at Nuremberg - the guilty were hung 5 days after conviction. There is an appeal process after Guantanamo that goes up to civilian courts and possibly the U.S. Supreme Court.
3. Nuremberg did not have guilty beyond a reasonable doubt - the Guantanamo trials will.
4. The accused at Guantanamo have more discovery rights than what you have in our civilian courts.
5. Guantanamo provides more rights to accused than the U.N. courts. "

The Oracle Says... wrote on Mar 13, 2008 6:25 PM:

" So are the terrorists lying when they say this with their own words Scott? Thats the problem with liberals, you wont even belive it when the enemy tells you what they will do...Liberals know better, as always. No, the fact is theere is NO negotation with Islamo-facists...There view on religion demands the Infidels, (read those who are non muslim) shall either convert, or must die. They do not negotiate. My point Scott, is that you cannot negotiate, as they believe there is nothing to negotiate. Surrender to their religion or die...Thats why they are called extremists. So if you cant work a middle ground, whats left to do with them? Let them go so they can have a second chance to kill you, a la GITMO detainees who after release, were killed on the battlefiled? The only warped logic is from liberlas like your ilk, who are going toget us all killed with the "Cumbaya" approach to the GWOT. Maybe if we all hold hands and sing "we are the world", it will all be better...RIIIIIGHT "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 14, 2008 10:10 AM:

" The question is not about negotiation. It is about due process of law. Some people want to SHOOT and HANG detainees before a fair trial is granted. Such views are not only called extremist, they are extremist. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 14, 2008 11:00 AM:

" BDG, Could you please provide us with some citations or sources to back up your comments? Thanks. "

Steve wrote on Mar 14, 2008 12:08 PM:

" Jeff, I suggest you read up on Danish newspapers printing cartoons of Mohammed and the extremist Islamic reaction to it. "

jeff wrote on Mar 14, 2008 1:59 PM:

" Steve, you’ve decided to pick one incident that resulted in no war and no Danish people being killed as your example? You’re right, I would call meeting requests, filing legal complaints, boycotting some goods the same as hijacking 4 commercial jet airliners then crashing 3 of them into public buildings with the intention of mass-murder by airplane. By the end of it not only had Denmark published the cartoons but also Spain, Germany, France, Italy, Jordan, Egypt, Switzerland, Argentina, Greece, Iceland, The United States, Portugal, Belgium, South Korea, India, New Zealand, Costa Rica, Honduras, Australia and Canada. I’m sure you’re right though and this was strictly a Scandinavian versus Islam problem. It should be noted that by the time anyone was killed over this the issue was way past a magazine in Denmark printing 11 cartoons of Mohammed. Go ahead and look it up, I’ll wait. "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Mar 14, 2008 3:03 PM:

" Scott, I disagree that everyone should be afforded due process - the demarcation in my mind being war vs. peace. A soldier doesn't grant due process to the enemy - period. He trains his weapon, then confirms the identity of the target (and, if there is time, the intention). This can be a difficult process in which the slightest error results in "friendly" fire deaths, or the deaths of enemies in the act of surrender. Are these crimes? Not remotely - they are part of the normal state of being in harm's way during a time of war. Even fleeing enemy soldiers can, and should, be shot in the back to prevent their eventual return to combat. As the death of an enemy soldier is not a crime, neither should the death of a non-uniformed combatant whose lack of uniform or organization increases civilian deaths and prevents the formal cessation of hostilities. In a time of war (unlike Nuremburg) making a prisoner of such a person is a CHOICE. Keeping them alive long enough to intellegence is wise; letting them live longer is a detriment even to their own people. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 15, 2008 7:51 AM:

" DA - No argument from me regarding your comment. Logically different rules apply on the battlefield than in a prison/court system. Of course a soldier in the heat of battle is going to defend or attack depending on his orders. The argument here has always been about the treatment of PRISONERS, who are no longer on the battlefield. Prisoners have rights. How do we know that those held at GITMO are guilty? Just because Bush and his cronies tell us so? The Bush Administration needs to bring valid, usable evidence (meaning evidence not procured by the use of torture or other questionable methods) against the prisoners to prove that they are guilty, only then we can punish accordingly. Like you wrote, EVERYONE should be afforded due process. Otherwise, how can we call ourselves free? How can we claim that Justice has been served? "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 15, 2008 10:16 AM:

" DA - Looks like I misread the first sentence of your comment (looks like Sid's not the only one suffering from poor eyesight). You DISAGREE that everyone should be afforded due process, so that means that I am not in agreement with your comment. Who, in your opinion, should be afforded due process? Where do you draw the line? Who does not deserve the fair and transparent administration of justice? If you deny due process to one person, aren't you ultimately denying yourself the same right? Why the double-standard? "

Gus wrote on Mar 15, 2008 1:22 PM:

" Scott: Who should be afforded due process? Those in possession of a Geneva Conventions Identification Card, complete with Category status plainly printed. That's where the line is drawn. I realize you will have some hair-splitting argument to rebut this. However, know without a doubt that regardless of your opinion and resulting argument that the international rules of war are very clear. Those who fight and are in possession of this card have a very clear understanding of their rights, as well as those they capture who are also in possession of a card. No card? Then you are not protected and will be treated as the common dirt-bag terrorist (without a sponsor country) that you are. And with no apologies. "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Mar 15, 2008 7:45 PM:

" War is not about justice or due process, Scott. Its not about fairness. Its not about rights. Its not about upholding any law. It's certainly not about deserving anything. Its about using lethal force against your enemies to bring about some desired end, whether it be their acquiescence to demands, complete surrender, or complete removal from the face of the earth. Nothing we have seen inside the United States since the Mexican-American war even comes close to war. We like to prettify it by saying there is a right and wrong way of going about it, because we aspire to take a moral high ground. But that's got nothing to do with the rights of enemies, because they don't have any in war. What we DO have are laws that we hold OURSELVES to regarding how we will behave while we are wearing the uniforms of the US military, but that's as far as it goes during war. Of course, enemies would logically be subject to their own laws, but you can see why that breaks down here. "

Joe Friday wrote on Mar 15, 2008 11:00 PM:

" I am amazed by the comments here that we should not give due process rights to terrorists. Without due process who determines who is a terrorist? Or should we just blindly believe the Bush Administration? Should our army (or any other for that matter) be able to lock people up without trial who are not members of a standing army? Some of the people held by our military are imprisoned based upon a "tip"for which someone got a reward, often this is done in retaliation for some perceived slight . Is any proceeding fair if the defense cannot question the person making an accusation against them? How does someone at Gitmo bring forward an alibi witness? "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 16, 2008 3:27 AM:

" What about the taxi driver, Gus? Should he also have a Geneva Conventions ID Card? Maybe he can use it to fill up his gas tank at the corner station. Or, what about other non-combatants, who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? The German-born Turkish guy comes to mind. I guess he was really kicking himself in butt for leaving his Geneva Conventions ID Card at home the day the CIA shipped him off to GITMO. I am sure that everyone in Afganistan sent off their typed application forms for an ID Card in the mail, but considering the fact that Afgan postal service just isn't up to its usual standards, no one has received their shiny, brand-new, credit-card-card-sized IDs to put in their wallets next to their Starbucks and their Blockbuster Member cards.

EVERYONE should be afforded due process. If they are truly guilty of crimes, then the evidence will speak for itself, and justice will have been served. "

All for it wrote on Mar 16, 2008 12:00 PM:

" You all have missed the third option, why not lop their heads off with a saber hand it to them and send them on their way. That is how prisoners have been treated in Iraq both civilian and military who are also non-combatant once they are captured. Scott once bitten by a rattle snake you tend to kill others you come in contact with, it's called survival. If it makes you feel any better we can place them on two deserted islands and fly drone airplanes loaded with nuclear weapons into them. But either way the casualty count wouldn't be sufficient because these are terrorists not simple innocent civilians going about their daily lives. We worry about everyone's right and justice for eveyone but the over 3,000 people murdered on 9/11. Where were their rights on that fatal day Scott? I hope you never return to America because until you are ready to fight for her you don't deserve the right to live here. Spout your idiologies all you want some are intelligent enough to see you for what you really are and I pitty those who can't. "

All for it wrote on Mar 16, 2008 12:14 PM:

" Scott,
In case you were wondering yes, I have fought for America and would do it again in a heart beat. You are confusing rights with privilages sir. You clearly did not have a relative in one of the twin towers on 9/11 or you woudln't spout your anti-american babble the way you do. Those you wish to give so many rights too are still maiming and killing americans in Iraq and Afghanistan and before you go there yes american men and women are doing the same to those cowardly dogs who are imported from Seria and Iran. You almost seem to think that what happened on 9/11 was a movie that over 3,000 American Souls weren't lost that day in that cowardess act. The only military target was the Pentagon and it is loaded with civilian employees. They claim to justify that with their hate of non-believers in Islam. This is a religous war for the terrorists it has nothing to do with combatant rights or civilian rights for that matter. I can't believe you support that action yet your blogs are filled with it. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 17, 2008 10:16 AM:

" "All for it", I don't know what comments you have been reading, but I have never, ever supported the terrorist actons of 9/11! I agree, the rights of those who lost their lives that day were horribly violated. That is about all I will say in response to your comments, because there isn't much in your comments to respond to. MOST people are intelligent enough to see through your comments and I pity those who can not or will not. "

jeff wrote on Mar 17, 2008 10:31 AM:

" I just love how people try and say anyone who didn’t back the Iraq invasion is unpatriotic because 3000+ people died in 911. Well here we are years later and we have found out that there were no WMD’s and no link to Al-Qaeda. The fact is there were no terrorists or threats of weapons in that country until we invaded it. So 3000+ Americans died on 911 and since we invaded 3988 and counting Americans killed and 29395 wounded. I wish I could claim patriotism by asking American men and women to die for a lie. "

Summary execution wrote on Mar 17, 2008 12:46 PM:

" If I remimber my days of historical military indoctrination training, that if you claimed to be a military person, but had nothing to confirm your identity as such, you could be summarily executed as a spy. I do believe that is why you if you recall in the movie the Great Escape that the prisoners tried to keep something, such as dog tags, to show that they were actually military and that they should be accorded their rights under the Geneva Convention. But in one scene many of them are exectued in cold blood, which I am sure if the story is accurate, I sure would account for German military personnel being tried for war crimes. Since none of the GITMO detainees are of any countries legitimate military forces, and majority are Muslim, then apply Sharia law and behead all who are guilty of murder or even attempted murder. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Mar 17, 2008 2:05 PM:

" Jazz reviewer and novelist Hentoff quotes the Financial Times in describing our response to "jihad totalitarianism."

Liberals have absolutely no clue with how to deal with this global threat to humanity. So, in not being able (or willing) to defend the United States, they seize upon the only intelligent (for them) option: take the side of the terrorist, defend their so-called rights, loudly proclaim our ‘unfair' treatment of them to all who would listen. How trendy, how popular, how politically correct!

Where is the liberal plan to end terrorism? Come on, there must be someone out there? "

All for it wrote on Mar 18, 2008 1:41 AM:

" Well Scott looks like you get a breather have to wrestle with you another day your friend Jeff touched a nerve with me that I must address. If you simple minded people would wake up and realize that the Weapons of Mass Destruction were Sadam and his two sons along with Chemical Ali. One day it will be written that the United States and it's allies rescued the Iraqi people from sure death at the hands of those animals. They had rape chambers and hung/beheaded people on a regular basis. Thousands of their own people not to mention Iranian civilians were drenched with Chemical weapons have you not heard this am I elightening you to the all out death and destruction those people were handing out? Do you know how many shiites and kurds have been killed in that country which we are not responsible for killing? Jeff you are way to articulate with your conversations with Scott to fall for this, I don't believe my eyes. I have one question for you both, is there anything worth fighting for in your eyes? Or do you let everyone else die for you "

All for it wrote on Mar 18, 2008 1:42 AM:

" Scott - Jeff what's next do we let Manson go free to run the streets again because you bleeding hearts think he has been unjustly locked up to long? "

jeff wrote on Mar 18, 2008 9:37 AM:

" All for it, you really need to think about what you’re saying because your logic is seriously flawed. Please explain to me how I’m letting people die for me? I was against the Iraq war you are for it so it seems to me Americans are dying for your ideals not mine. You use the humanitarian issue for being pro war but where are your humanitarian feelings when it comes to actual Americans living in America? Do you approve of your tax money going to poor families? Do you want to pay higher taxes to erase homelessness and poverty in our country or do you prefer tax and social services cuts so you can buy a new SUV, big screen TV or Jet Ski or something? The truth is you people don’t really care about Iraqis, if you did you wouldn’t be for the war as 1,189,173 Iraqi civilians have been killed since we invaded their country. Yeah you’re right we’re doing them a huge favor. The truth is more people are being killed now than ever before and we are causing it so don’t pretend like you care about saving lives. "

jeff wrote on Mar 18, 2008 10:44 AM:

" Hey Scott you'll like this. I found it on IMDB for Johnny Depp "He has said in interviews that he is of Cherokee, Irish, and German descent, with some Navajo as well. Asked the origin of his last name by James Lipton on Inside the Actors Studio, Johnny Depp said his name means "idiot" in German." "

All for it wrote on Mar 18, 2008 11:46 PM:

" To Jeff
You and many of your contemporaries lay back talk about saving lives and all, but perhaps if some of you would enlist in our all volunteer services now you could go to war and change things rather than stay home all comfy and blog about the way life should be. You set back playing armchair General and use statistics to make a case for your inaction. Hit the streets and protest if you are so against the war, don't set in front of your computer and curse it because you are too lazy to do anything but talk about it. Where did the terrorist come from Jeff? The number of Iraqi's you quoted as parishing is inaccurate, Don't worry the bleeding hearts will eventually give up on Iraq and the Iraqi people and when that happens watch the death rate of civilian Iraqi's then my friend. Do you honestly think the killing stopped in Vietnam when we withdrew, no just like in Iraq they found mass graves. We aren't in the Middle East to do anything but keep the terrorist busy over there instead of over here. Get it???? "

All for it wrote on Mar 19, 2008 12:11 AM:

" To Jeff
I do believe we should have put more of our resources militarily and financially to track down Ben Ladden. I think we lost focus on finding him and taking away his wealth and his life for his involvement in 9/11., which I still think needs to happen before the terrorist problem has really been dealt a blow. We have already eliminated several high ranking terrorist which is a good thing but many more must be dealt with in order for us to have a safe community to live in again. We are not asking for as much help as we should from all these other countries we have handed money to on a fiscal basis year after year to resolve the terrorist problem. They should step forward and provide military personnel more so than they already have. UN forces won't work because they are not strong enough to withstand an assualt, that has already been proven in Isreal. But the day we pull out of the Middle East is the day you will see terror rear it's ugly head like never before and you can take that to the bank. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 19, 2008 7:48 AM:

" Jeff, thanks for the Depp quote. It does make me chuckle a bit whenever I hear his name mentioned. I just can't believe no one has made fun of former NY Gov. Spitzer's name, yet. If he had been less "spitz", maybe he'd still have a job.

Alejandro's attempt to equate your remarks with anti-semitism was a very weak ploy to make you look bad. I just think he is jealous that he can't say that he was a rebel in his youth in order to attract the ladies (or the guys, whatever his preference may be). And as for All For It's Manson argument, well...I am sure I don't have to tell you how feable that was. I already mentioned that there isn't much in his comments worth responding to. "

jeff wrote on Mar 19, 2008 12:33 PM:

" All for it, do me a favor please? Explain to me how I am an ‘armchair general’ when I was not in favor of going to war. Don’t Generals send people to war? Isn’t that the same behavior you are advocating or are you against war? I’m confused, you say you don’t like people sitting at home asking for Americans to die for them and you use me as an example but yet I never wanted or would have asked any American to go to war in Iraq. You say you don’t display this behavior yet you are all for Americans being at war in Iraq (I think, I can’t really tell at this point). Are you able to pin down your stance or not? I realize you’re used to thinking this kind of doublespeak makes sense because you buy into the lies of the Bush administration but regular thoughtful educated people use logic. "

jeff wrote on Mar 19, 2008 12:33 PM:

" I’m not sure where most terrorists come from but I know they didn’t used to come from Iraq. If you think Hussein allowed terrorists in his country than you haven’t paid much attention to what went on over there prior to us invading. The death toll I gave is fairly accurate but yeah it could be off by a few thousand or so give or take. The rest of your comments are just ridiculous to me and you’re making assumptions about me but you’re new here so I suppose it’s not your fault that you don’t know. I do not advocate pulling out of Iraq at this point. I agree if we leave the country will be ripped apart but that is because of our doing. We spilled the milk and now it’s our job to clean it up. By the way it’s Bin not Ben. Scott, you’re right responding to this guy or girl is probably an exercise in futility. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Mar 19, 2008 12:34 PM:

" Former Hanford resident and American expatriate Tucker continues to attempt to discredit bloggers using his liberal 'I denounce America' mantra.

There is no mention of anyone being anti-Semitic in this particular blog, so the Swiss Teacher deliberately is trying to mislead us just as his compatriot does.

He has no answers to the important questions asked here in this topic.

Disappointing, once again, to say the least. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Mar 19, 2008 3:44 PM:

" Herr Tucker is really getting desperate with the personal attacks. What a teacher he must be in such a faraway land!

He is stooping so low as to say of this blogger:

"I just think he is jealous that he can't say that he was a rebel in his youth in order to attract the ladies (or the guys, whatever his preference may be)."

If I can stop laughing for a minute, let me reply:
"jealous" - not hardly
"rebel in his youth" - no, & I obeyed the law, too!
"attract the ladies" - no problemo
"or the guys" - no problemo there, also

Good thing we all follow the blogging 'rules of the road,' right? "

All for it wrote on Mar 19, 2008 4:32 PM:

" You are absolutely correct on the spelling was trying to spell it the way Bush says it, but I guess you couldn't figure that out and Ladden is spelt Laden, just for your information. What I would like to hear him called is off the most wanted list with a big KILLED Scrolled over his face.
But getting back to terrorism military people from the US have down in history used a deck of cards to symbolize their victories over their enemies, isn't that a form of terrorism when they leave a particular card say an Ace of Spades on the face of a dead man? Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire and claim an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth just to indicate you aren't going to stand for it any longer. Of course you may not be familar with the book those quotes came from because I am banking it wasn't part of that wonderouos education you received. In case you still don't get it, I support those troups over there the one's who put it on the line everyday so you and I can live a comfortable life. "

All for it wrote on Mar 19, 2008 4:40 PM:

" Jeff - Scott I proudly make mention that I have two nephews who have fought in Iraq and both of them say what we are doing is worth it. Sorry gotta take their word over yours everytime. I couldn't be prouder of them because they don't set home blogging instead of doing something worth bragging about. They feel exactly the way I did in Vietnam they are there for their brothers and sisters in arms who they proudly fight alongside. That's what military people do when civilians are vacationing abroad. There are relationships formed in those situations that last a lifetime and are as strong as many family relationships. That's why Obama and Hillary won't make the grade and if they do I pitty our poor country. Neither one of them are fit to be Commander In Chief. They will pull out of Iraq no doubt but at what cost to us and the Iraqi Government? "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 20, 2008 5:51 AM:

" Let's see here, guessing that someone isn't popular with the guys and girls, OR claiming that someone is an anti-semite...Again, I think it is clear for all to see which comment is the real personal attack.

"Good thing we all follow the blogging 'rules of the road,' right?" Can the level of hypocrisy and double-standards possibly rise any higher?

I continuously fight for the rights of all Americans in this forum, and yet I am accused of "denouncing" America? If I really hated Americans and America, wouldn't I celebrate the destruction of our Constitution and the betrayal of our human rights? If I really hated America, I wouldn't fight so damn hard trying to defend it. I would just let the Alejandros and the Oracles of this world continue to tear apart the fabric of what makes the United States good with their spin and ill-conceived rhetoric.

"

Steve wrote on Mar 20, 2008 7:21 AM:

" Jeff, Sorry you had to wait just six (6) days, but have you heard the tape from Bin Laden today? Basically the entire EU, especially Denmark, has been put on notice by Bin Laden that an armed attack by al Qaida is now a high probability. Still think extremist groups are not fighting with Scandinavian countries? Denmark is not trying to control any muslim country. They just published a silly cartoon and now are being verbally threatened with violence. Open your eyes. "

jeff wrote on Mar 20, 2008 9:52 AM:

" All for it, way to go on not answering my questions and side-stepping the main points in the conversation that you originally brought up. You’re not doing anything to help your position and you failed to prove anything you’ve said. No one would have gotten that Ben Ladden remark. No I don’t believe placing a playing card on a dead enemies body is ‘terrorism’ and even bringing this up does what to help you? The answer is The Torah and yeah I’ve read it. You’re right though it wasn’t part of any education I received I unlike yourself and most people who follow your ideas will go out and try and understand things that bother or scare me and yes Biblical scripture indeed scares me. The most violent people on this earth are the religious ones. "

jeff wrote on Mar 20, 2008 10:01 AM:

" Alejandro, I’m replying to you here since they took down the ‘Believers’ thread. The logic you use to try and say I’m an anti-Semite actually negates your claim. On one hand you use my words that the Israelis killed millions upon millions because God told them to as your basis that I am against Jewish people. When I pasted a quote of Hitler’s saying that he killed millions of Jews because God told him to is your basis that I’m pro-Nazi. You can’t apply logic only in instances that fit your position. Either it works across the board or it doesn’t. If thinking God told Jews to kill people makes me anti-Semitic than thinking that God told Hitler to kill Jews would make me anti-Nazi. "

jeff wrote on Mar 20, 2008 10:11 AM:

" Steve, this just backs up what I said to you in my last comment. Islamic Fundamentalists do not go after countries that don’t try and occupy or kill them. They are denouncing the entire EU not specifically Scandinavian countries. Did you read my last comment? The only reason Denmark reprinted the cartoons is a plot was uncovered to kill 1 Danish cartoonist. Not a plot to attack the entire country of Denmark. The tape also mostly focuses on Pope Benedict XVI for discussing some text that says the teachings of Islam is evil. Here is a quote regarding the Cartoons being republished from MSNBC “There have been renewed protests in the last month, though not as large or widespread.” But way to go you really showed me how I was wrong. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Mar 20, 2008 3:49 PM:

" The 'believers' thread is still up, I believe...
"

ALEJANDRO wrote on Mar 20, 2008 4:07 PM:

" Telling the truth is extremely important to me. I never accused anyone of being ‘pro-Nazi.' The blogger cannot even remember what he himself said!

He wrote right above on this very blog:
"When I pasted a quote of Hitler's saying that he killed millions of Jews because God told him to is your basis that I'm pro-Nazi."

The actual quotation that this blogger 'pasted' was this:
"Here is a quote from Mein Kampf "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator:by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." "

I don't believe that Hitler was ever quoted as admitting to having killed millions of Jews. And this particular blogger continues to be less than honest over and over again.

Words mean things, people. Truth is essential. "

All for it wrote on Mar 21, 2008 1:42 AM:

" Scott and Jeff if it weren't for the oracle's and alejandro's of the world you wouldn't have anything to comment about. Both of you are as dogmatic in your opinions as Adolf Hitler was in his, sorry to say but it's true. You both claim to love America but at your first opportunity you want to challenge decisions made with far more knowledge than either of you have access to regarding foreign policy. The President is briefed daily on what's going on and where it's going on, are either of you, I think not. You don't approve of anything Bush has done or any other Republican President probably but either way you could do it better, safer and without bloodshed. Well then I say take out the papers and run and see how far you get toward the White House. Say what you will but throughout our history every time there were economical problems we had a war to stimulate the economy and guess what it worked everytime. Sure we are in a down swing right now, but as more war time necessities are produced the more jobs will be created. "

All for it wrote on Mar 21, 2008 1:55 AM:

" Jeff - once again you are the one who spouts statistics and rhetoric and think that wins a discussion. You are wrong I haven't dodged anything including my military duties so before you start pointing the finger you better look in the mirror one more time. I didn't avoid any questions I haven't heard a question from your side of the fence yet? All you do is quote liberal statistics you are finding on the radio and boob tube and expect that to be your problem solver. You and Scott both profess an aliance to something I am just not sure what? You make excuses for religous zealouts then in the next breath you are saying they scare you to death, which is it you can't have it both ways. Your comment about the Bible scaring you tells me all I need to know about your beliefs and question it all you like but just a quick clue that isn't the mear mortals job. You want a real scare read the last chapter of the New Testament. That will make you fill your britches, I am sure. Oracle hang on bud. "

All for it wrote on Mar 21, 2008 2:04 AM:

" Oracle says - Just hang on you speak the truth you quote some serious ammo towards Scott - Jeff it sends them for a loop sometimes. They just don't get it, you love this country and that's a full time job. These educated types always amaze me when they want to question everything. For instance if they were told to empty a coral of manure they would have to know exactly where it came from. How often it filled the coral and how much they were getting paid to empty the coral before they would even pick up a shovel. Then they would have to wait until the radio quoted the price for manure that day and figure out if they were being paid enough for emptying the coral. By the time they got around to emptying the coral all the animals would be dead and their families would have starved to death. But they call that progress. . . . Oracle when you wake up every morning just be glad you weren't raised in a time when you had to ask somebody what kind of day you were gonna have. "

jeff wrote on Mar 21, 2008 8:01 AM:

" So let me get this straight Alejandro you were trying to say you think I'm anti-Nazi and anti-Semite? That's your position? Or are you backpeddling now because your whole argument is ridiculous, crude and unfounded? "

What is a wrote on Mar 21, 2008 10:28 AM:

" liberal statisitic? Stats are fact-based. Oh, that's right. We're still in the Bush years. Sorry. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Mar 21, 2008 1:37 PM:

" I still would like to know how the liberals here would deal with "jihad totalitarianism" as described in Hentoff's op-ed piece.

There is no liberal or Democratic answer to this worldwide problem, is there? Curious, since most of these libs are 'brilliant' teachers, professors, experienced politicians, etc. and should easily offer some practical solutions.
"

All for it wrote on Mar 21, 2008 2:02 PM:

" To What is a liberal statistic
Statistics 101, stats are based on truth and fact, depending upon who's truth it is and what spin the person computing the stats wants them to indicate. Statistics are used when there is no truth to back up what would normally take place in a conversation trying to prove one's point. Statistically Scott and Jeff will condemn America at least twice in any given blog while attesting their loyalty to same. There is a statistic for you, however not so liberal. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 22, 2008 4:56 AM:

" I have compiled a small list of excerpts from my comments, where, according to the strange logic of All For It, I "condemn" America at least twice in any given blog:

"If I really hated Americans and America, wouldn't I celebrate the destruction of our Constitution and the betrayal of our human rights?"

"I have never, ever supported the terrorist actions of 9/11! I agree, the rights of those who lost their lives that day were horribly violated."

"EVERYONE should be afforded due process."

"Support human rights and the right of due process of law."

I think any person with a functioning central nervous system can clearly see that I do not and have never "condemned" America. All For It must equate Constitutional and Human Rights with America bashing. On the flip side, he must equate the destruction and betrayal of Constitutional and Human Rights as conduct worthy of a "supporter" of the USA. Again, typical of my critics, they seem to hate the freedoms and rights granted to us by the Constitution and hate the fact that I try to defend those freedoms and rights. "

jeff wrote on Mar 24, 2008 10:16 AM:

" Scott, that’s because they have no solid argument to stand on. They’ve learned as the Bush administration has that all you need to do is try and start a war against people to take their minds off of the actual issues. You notice that when anyone brings up a problem with our government the first thing they say is you must ‘hate’ America. They don’t want to actually admit that mistakes have been made and they hide behind a fake guise of ‘Patriotism’ to accomplish this. They seem to believe that in order to be a true patriot is to blindly follow flawed politicians and to never ask questions but we all know that this is not how our country was founded to begin with. If this was England in the 1600’s these would be the people who didn’t cross the ocean in search of a better life and denounced the ones who did. "

jeff wrote on Mar 24, 2008 10:24 AM:

" All for it, I take it then the logic you use against so-called ‘Liberal’ statistics is true for ‘Conservative’ statistics? Logic cannot be applied only when it fits your view point. It either works or it doesn’t. Please show me anywhere where I’ve condemned America. "

All for it wrote on Mar 24, 2008 10:45 AM:

" According to you because I did stand up for America and continue to do so today first by joining the military and serving our country. That somehow corelates to me pretending to be patriotic, I believe the day I swore an oath to protect the same constitution you bodly say is faltering and failing made me a patriot. What's next George Washington wasn't a patriot because he wore a wig? If people like you and Scott don't consider yourselves American Bashers I don't know who would qualify. Like I continue to say and you both continue to ignore take your battle to the streets show me some intestinal fortitude in your ability to do anything other than complain in a blog. At least the protestors of the 60's had the juevos to demonstrate in the streets and gather their army in force to make a point. The two of you set in front of your computer like that Corporal in Germany set in front of his desk plotting a better Germany for who but himself? I deffinately see history repeating itself. Insult me but leave my forefathers out of this. "

All for it wrote on Mar 24, 2008 10:54 AM:

" To Scott - first of all if it weren't for people just like me Scott you wouldn't be able to get on this blog and say what's on your mind however simple that may be. Get with the times if you can read this thank a teacher, if you can read it in english thank a military person. You and your compadre are so out there sometimes I think this is Outerlimits, don't adust your computer this is Scott and Jeffs fault. I'll tell you what Jeff take a trip to the Fresno VA sometime and just stand outside because you don't deserve to go inside and just look at the price my fellow service members have paid for your and Scotts freedom. I guarantee you it will change your outlook on life. But then again as long as it isn't your butts you probably really don't care. The only thing wrong with our constitution is the way you two make it say what you want to make it say with your spin added to it, but that's o.k. because we veterans afford you that ability without being beheaded or stoned. "

Steve wrote on Mar 24, 2008 12:01 PM:

" Scott,
Those freedoms and rights granted to "us" by the Constitution that you mention... Do those rights extend just to "us American citizens?" Or do they also cover the gamut of muslim extremists with no sponsor country who take up arms and murder US soldiers? In my mind there is a vast difference, and Constitutional rights do not cover terrorists. We can write eloquently about the USA setting examples to the world, but when we get down to brass tacks, do Constitutional rights REALLY cover terrorists? (Presumed or otherwise?) "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 25, 2008 2:34 AM:

" Steve, yes those freedoms and rights granted in the Constitution normally extend to just US citizens. No argument from me regarding that. However, I also wrote about human rights in my comments, and those rights usually extend to all HUMANS, hence the name. I do not support and never have supported the actions of terrorists and criminals. What I do support are rights that protect the innocent. I support rights that were set up in order to ensure that ALL people receive fair treatment. Such rights help to protect us as a democracy. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 25, 2008 2:45 AM:

" Steve, I did some homework and found a case where Constitutional rights apply to non-citizens. Here you go: Filártiga v. Peña-Irala

From Wikipedia: "The U.S. courts eventually ruled in favor of the Filártigas [non-US citizens], rewarding them roughly $10.4 million. Torture was clearly a violation of international law (aka "the law of nations"), and the U.S. did have jurisdiction over the case since the claim was lodged when both parties were inside the United States." "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 25, 2008 9:51 AM:

" The policemen broke my door down
Dragged me from my bed
I asked them what was happening
They just ignored the words I said
They waved their guns in my face
Kept screaming out my name
Something terrible had happened
And somehow I was to blame

O freedom, what liberties are taken in thy name

My accusers formed a jury
The Judge and the defence
The charges were made known to me
But not the evidence
There was no guilty verdict
Yet still I was detained
Flown to another country where
Their methods are less constrained

O freedom, what liberties are taken in thy name

In our determination
To defend democracy
We must not destroy the safeguards
That underpin our liberty
For who will pay the price if
Injustice such as this
Turns our protectors to oppressors
And angry men to terrorists

O freedom, what liberties are taken in thy name

-Billy Bragg, "O Freedom"

"

Steve wrote on Mar 25, 2008 11:57 AM:

" Thanks for the excellent reply, Scott. Unfortunately for these terrorists Guantanamo is actually leased from Cuba, so there is some wiggle room as to the definition of "inside the United States" when attempting to apply Constitutional rights to them. So perhaps the real question is what to do with captured terrorists on the battlefield who do not have a host country and have no Geneva Conventions protection. Do we simply let them go, only to fight them again in the next battle? Or do we simply kill them outright and permanantly solve their issues of violence on a case-by-case basis? These tribunals, while perhaps not perfect, would seem to be the best option. "

jeff wrote on Mar 25, 2008 12:47 PM:

" All for it, let’s see if I can explain the ridiculousness of your latest tantrum in fewer words than you used, I think I can do this easily. I’m against war so what am I to take to the streets exactly? You mention protesting, how do you know that I do not engage in this practice already and why do you assume that I do not? This is a failing point in your argument when submitted as a statement of fact because you do not know the real answer. We haven’t been in danger of being taken over by a non-English speaking country in quite some time so no, I will not thank anyone for being able to read anything in English that is alive today and the bit about thanking a teacher that I can read in the first place has what to do with any of this? There is another failing point in your argument. Exactly what is Scott’s and my fault? You don’t state what ‘It’ is, is it the Iraq war or Guantanamo Bay? According to you neither of these is a problem so what are we at fault for here in your eyes? "

jeff wrote on Mar 25, 2008 12:47 PM:

" I haven’t seen Scott or I add any spin to the Constitution unless you think that stating it grants us freedoms and rights spin? Do you not believe in freedom? I’m confused. Who mentioned the founders of this country? Are you referring to when I said you would be a person that would have happily stayed in England when the Mayflower came over? Since you’re probably not aware, that happened just a few years (Sarcasm) before the country was founded so here’s another failing point for you. You state that without people like you no one could even get on a blog. Really did you invent the ‘Blog’? Did you invent the ‘Internet’? Far as I know there are many countries in this world that have this ability and you didn’t do anything to help them, I find it rather conceded to walk around thinking “Look at all these people using technology, they should be thanking me”. If you really were a soldier did you join up so you could simply act like everyone else owes you something? "

jeff wrote on Mar 25, 2008 12:47 PM:

" What does your statement about George Washington have to do with any of this? Again you’re making assumptions and very poor ones at that. No I will not be visiting the Fresno VA anytime soon I do however know several servicemen that have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and not one that I know believes invading Iraq was a good idea. Another failing point for you here since you think that anyone who served in the military shares your beliefs. Last I checked they are all people with free will. I’m not sure how any military person has afforded me the ability to not be beheaded or stoned, care to extrapolate on this please? Now I have pretty much spoke in specific detail regarding all the points you bring up in your latest tantrum. "

jeff wrote on Mar 25, 2008 12:47 PM:

" Let’s see have you ever even attempted to address one of my issues? Yes you have one time, your entire argument is that Saddam his two sons and Chemical Ali were WMD’s. You use this argument by claiming they’ve killed so many people but what you fail to address is the fact that since we invaded that country more people have been killed there Americans and native Iraqis than ever before. Please tell me how we are helping when this is the case? Every other issue I’ve brought up you have purposefully ignored, why is that? Do you not have an answer? You still have yet to tell me how I ever asked Americans to die for me, you have as of yet failed to give me a specific of anything I’ve said that is ‘Hating’ America, you have as of yet failed to explain where you gave an example of American servicemen committing terrorism (Your words) improves your argument. Let me talk about some other ridiculous statements you’ve made. You have as of yet to explain to me how any so-called ‘Liberal’ statistic is invalid but any pro-war statistic is valid. "

jeff wrote on Mar 25, 2008 12:47 PM:

" Scott and I are as dogmatic as Hitler but you don’t qualify this statement whatsoever. Are we as dogmatic as Hitler was as say Bush is at trying to convince us that Iraq posed a threat to this country? I wouldn’t attack decisions being made about our Foreign Policy if so many other people as you say with far more knowledge happen to be talking and writing about what bad decisions they were. You say I should run for President just because I don’t agree with the current one. You are of the belief that Barack and Hillary are not fit to be President yet I see no bid on your behalf to run against them. Where is your logic here exactly? Did you run for President after Mr. Clinton or were you a fan of his Presidency? If war creates more jobs than why are unemployment rates rising in this country? The statement that war is good for the economy has been proven by many economists to be a fantasy. I’ve never questioned your military duties so your statement about not dodging that directed at me is what, your answer to the voices that only exist in your head? "

jeff wrote on Mar 25, 2008 12:48 PM:

" You say all that I do is quote statistics I hear on ‘Liberal’ radio and TV. Well none of the statistics I used came from either of these mediums or ‘Liberal’ sources. You refer to Scott and I as ‘Educated types’ so you’re basically stating that you’re not educated, yet you continue to be of the belief you’re smarter than many other people. Why don’t you try and educate yourself? If you were asked to do a job that did entail compensation you wouldn’t inquire as to what that was beforehand? Yes you’re right you’re not educated, it’s a wonder you can afford a computer and internet access. Who says anyone has to ask anyone what kind of day they are going to have? You might want to look up the word rhetoric as this is almost the only ammunition you have to argue with. Well that sure is a lot more words than you used. I guess you’re right and I can be wrong some times. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Mar 25, 2008 2:07 PM:

" Scott quotes this obscure musician again and again. We do know that Bragg is a leftist, pro communist who Wikipedia says: "has been an outspoken opponent of fascism, racism, bigotry, sexism and homophobia, and a supporter of a multi-racial Britain." No wonder why Scott loves him!

Can't compete with moving lyrics of this old favorite:

"Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on."

- Julia Ward Howe, a REAL American patriot! "

LegalEagel wrote on Mar 25, 2008 2:32 PM:

" Scott Tucker quotes from a civil - not criminal - legal decision that talks about tortuous acts.

Much as he'd like to believe that this was a first rights decision, Mr. Tucker did not bother to mention (or just didn't know) that ‘tort' is not short for ‘torture.' It's a sue for money/damages affair which was contested under alien jurisdiction purposes.
(see Alien Tort Statute, 28 U.S.C. § 1350)

The only legal finding of consequence is this: the U.S. did have jurisdiction over the case since the claim was lodged when both parties were inside the United States.

Nothing to do with establishing human rights, mates! "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 25, 2008 4:28 PM:

" Wow! I always thought a tort was a little cake made with flour and eggs, but wait, I guess I'd be wrong again, because that one has an "e" on the end. Thanks for the "schoolin'", LegalEagel, you got me on that one! "

Scott Tucker wrote on Mar 25, 2008 4:55 PM:

" Alejandro, just because you've never heard of Billy Bragg, does not mean that he is obscure. You need to move the radio dial away from BillO and Rush for awhile, and realize that music is made the whole world round. Just because Bragg sings with a funny English accent does not detract from the power of his message. But I forget, you don't care for multiculturalism, do you?

From your reply, I take it that you are not an opponent of fascism, racism, bigotry, sexism and homophobia, nor are you a supporter of mulit-culturalism. Shall I burn you a CD, so that you may perhaps become an opponent of fascism, racism, bigotry, sexism and homophobia, and maybe learn to support multiculturalism?

And, because you are so ethnocentric, I offer you some American lyrics:

"Too many martyrs and too many dead
Too many lies too many empty words were said
Too many times for too many angry men
Oh let it never be again"

-Phil Ochs and Bob Gibson, "Too Many Martyrs" "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Mar 26, 2008 2:47 PM:

" Wikipedia says Phil Ochs was a U.S. protest singer whose mental stability declined in the 1970s and eventually he succumbed to a number of problems including bipolar disorder and alcoholism, and he took his own life in 1976. He wrote "Love Me I'm a Liberal" and "Ringing of Revolution."

A ‘martyr' for the ‘cause,' Scott? "




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