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Ignorance is outrageous

Editor: I would like to say to Mr. Kleinhammer that the only outrage is his ignorant attitude. I do not know any gay or lesbian person who has relations with animals or inanimate objects. The right to marry should be for all adults, it is after all a human right and unless you're willing to further your narrow-minded attitude and say that we are not humans, may I suggest a class on valuing diversity. If the class doesn't work for you, I have read that the KKK is low on membership numbers.

Also, since you know so much about LGBT people, you should know that we have this thing called a gaydar; we know who's gay and who's not, so if no one in your family is gay don't worry we won't hit on them. Now for the perverted behavior... I must admit that I have no idea what you're talking about.

As for holding off on Pride parades, I don't see that happening any time soon. We have earned our right to celebrate our culture, our lifestyle and our traditions. For you to threaten our rights is un-American. The shame is yours, not the court's. Play your tricks; last I checked hate crimes are punishable and not tolerated.

Lastly, June is coming up and the parades are on the way, so to all the LGBT friends and family -- come out, come out wherever you are!

Melissa Denton

Lemoore

(May 21, 2008)

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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

Hmmmmmm wrote on May 21, 2008 12:53 PM:

" To Ms. Denton: Where in the world do you get your information from. Sorry to burst your little blinded bubble but there are lots of people that have sex with inanimate objects and I am sure gay people are included. Secondly I also know lots of men who have been hit on by gays. I also know lots of gays who unfortunately died way to young in life due to AIDS. So don't be getting on your high horse and trying to shove your lifestyle down anyones throat. Get your facts straight! "

JD wrote on May 21, 2008 2:27 PM:

" Melissa,

I agree with you all adults should be able to marry! I sould also have to right to marry more than one consenting adult too! We need not end the fight at just gay marriage, if true equality is what you are after we need to march down to Texas and allow those poor souls to marry as many women as they want...who are we to judge! I'm all for equality!! What about the bi-sexual people that want to marry a man and a woman. WHat's wrong with that? They are adults! If marriage is all about the adult and their desired joy, I know of a woman who loves her cats more then anything, her cats appear to love her equally. She should be able to marry them too! "

Watchdog wrote on May 22, 2008 1:39 AM:

" Melissa, just pray tell has your generation won any rights what so ever. Civil Rights were won in the 60's a clear century away from you nd now. As for Gaydar it like any form of radar can have shadows that may appear to be real but aren't in reality. The blip isn't always one to prey upon and launch your best lesbian attack on. Furthermore, gays have fought in military conflicts for freedoms for years, but I doubt you fit that scenario? Yes you are too quick to jump onto your float and present your proud butt for all to see down Market Street in San Francisco. However you could shop on pier 69 1/2?
Don't criticize people for like you sharing their opinions yours may be valid but theirs deffinately is, so back off and respect those you want to respect you. When you spew venom that is often what you get in return. See you in ElDorado, Tx. the next big fight for people's rights. If when you get there and you don't see me go aheadand start without me. Has she left yet? "

WOW wrote on May 22, 2008 9:25 AM:

" hey Hmmmmmm, check your self man. No one needs your hate on here. She and many others feel that love is love, no matter who it is. No one is talking about having sex with animals either. Not sure what sick websites YOU are visiting, but thats not the case here. People have the right to love who they want, and people like you don't have the right to control it. Do I like to see public affection from gays? No, but who am I to have hate in my heart for it. Thou shall not judge that's in your so called 'good book' right? Live and let live man "

Hmmmmmm wrote on May 22, 2008 4:27 PM:

" To WOW: Nowhere in my blog did I say anything about animals, but if you think that isn't happening you better think again. If you had read what I wrote instead of running off at the mouth I said, inanimate objects, and no I wasn't talking about toasters and such. I'm sure most people don't need a list to what I am referring to. Your the one sprewing hate and accusations so why don't you check yourself before you go off on others. "

Melissa wrote on May 22, 2008 4:59 PM:

" hmmmm,
Yes a lot a gay people have contracted AIDS, so have straight people. Yeah and sometimes are gaydar is off...lord knows I have misjudged a few people.
As for shoving my lifestyle down someone's throat, my dear...its not the gay people doing it...its the straights. We just want our rights. Our American Rights. "

Melissa wrote on May 22, 2008 5:05 PM:

" JD,
I fight for equality for my minority. I know it sounds selfish, but oh well. The black movement wanted black rights, the disabled persons movement wanted disabled person rights..So I don't think it is so far fetched for me to just want gay and lesbian marriage to be legal in the state.

And the animal arguement is so dumb that I can't comment on it...except by saying that marriage is not that sacred anymore...straight people broke those traditional voes. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on May 22, 2008 6:53 PM:

" Why is it when anyone offers an opinion, and backs it up with facts, and has a right to express that opinion, are they called 'haters' and told 'it's none of your business?'

I can't fathom the gay agenda that wants to force all of us to believe that homosexuality is good, healthy, and wholesome - without question.

Domestic partnership is just not good enough, garldangit! Well, we'll just push our views onto the will of the majority and take something rock-solid in definition and make it ours too while we pretend it's socially acceptable to do so. We are right: a judge said so! See?

Marriage existed in it's biblical and socially-defined man-woman configuration long before the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and French and Russian revolutions and in all the historical movements you can think of.

Homosexuals have the right to contract, bond socially, and have the legal right to be together in a family if they so choose. I believe that so I am not a 'hater'.

But take marriage and make it something different to meet your own needs, I can't condone that. "

dose wrote on May 22, 2008 7:59 PM:

" Alejandro, why do you feel the need to make other people's marraige about you? "

more divorces wrote on May 22, 2008 8:25 PM:

" With gay marriage will come lots of gay divorces. I wish I was a divorce attorney, they are about to double their business. Not everything has a silver lining, I'll be laughing as more and more gays need to pay spousal support. Also, just a little advice to the "parade" type gays, you only make you and people that share your life style look crazy. Flaunting your "gayness" is kind of disgusting and does not convert anyone to take your side. I don't want my kids to see people who clearly need some mental counseling parading around like perverted lunatics. New idea, have a parade but act liked educated adults trying to express your rights in a polite and professional manner. That might make a difference in public opinion. "

Wait a second wrote on May 22, 2008 8:42 PM:

" My God taught me to do unto other as I would have done to me. As a Catholic I have been taught that homosexuality is bad. HOWEVER, that verse is open to interpretation, unlike the other verses that preach tolerance and love. I say to let everyone have equal rights. Man and woman, woman and woman, man and man. The common bond, they are all people that love each other. Let them marry, let them be happy and let God be the judge. AMEN! "

Melissa wrote on May 22, 2008 11:51 PM:

" Have you ever been to a Parade? they are fun, and offer a source of fund raising for organizations. They are a time when we as a group of minorities can come together and unite as one. If you don't want to see it...don't come, please, dont.
But I have to ask what if your child came to you and said he or she is gay. Would you still hold to your hate or 'better" sense of ethics? Would you deny them marrital bliss?
gay will not ruin marriage because it already untraditional...thank you heteros. I don't believe in divorise nor cheating....but heteros have done both things and society has turned a blind eye.
live and let live. I"m not a bad person, i contribute to society, i take care of my family, who are you to judge and call names? "

simonizr wrote on May 23, 2008 12:39 AM:

" Kudos Melissa Denton!
You are well spoken and you rock. I am not gay and I am married. I have many gay friends and co-workers. i will be at the parade supporting our First Amendment rights. I will be there to celebrate my freedom of speech, freedom of the press and our right to peacefully assemble (aka Parade). "

Scott Tucker wrote on May 23, 2008 1:47 AM:

" Dear Melissa,

Thanks for your letter in response to Mr. Kleinhammer's poor excuse for an argument. Keep it up and don't be discouraged by the naysayers! "

Lorie wrote on May 23, 2008 11:20 AM:

" Going going Melissa! It's about pride, it's about time! "

Josh wrote on May 23, 2008 3:31 PM:

" I hear people on this post complaining that there may be a gay pride parade. That would be great. I also find it funny that when pro-lifers are all over the streets in this town holding up their signs and telling us if we don't agree with them we are going to hell. They are on a public street trying to shove their views down my throat, but I will support their right to do that, just as we should support gays and lesbians in the parade that I hope happens soon. Let me know when and where I along with my wife and 2 children will be there. I am teaching my children that no matter who you are you have the same rights as everyone else. "

Will A wrote on May 23, 2008 4:04 PM:

" Melissa - You are going down just as much of a slippery slope saying people who don't support gay marriage should go to the KKK, as other are by saying gays are just a step away from beastiality. There are a lot of thoughtful concerned people that are against this.

Wait a Second - If you want to start paraphrasing scripture from the bible, that's fine, but you should really read the whole thing before you tell people that God is totally cool with homosexuality.

It's funny how people always assume Christians just have these opinions. It aint us. It's God. Believe me, it would be a lot easier to just let it go. "

question wrote on May 23, 2008 4:45 PM:

" It is the Christian's opinions that are being aired. You cannot say that it is God speaking...it is you speaking about God. Even if you quote the Bible directly, it will depend on how you use the quote. Question...if there is "only God", then how is it possible that there are Lutherans, Mormons, Presbyterians, Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, Baptists. Each church is the result of man's interpretation of God's word. But since you want to talk about "God's opinion", tell us, what is it? I'm not an expert, so quote the Bible where "God says" he is against homosexuality. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on May 23, 2008 4:53 PM:

" Scott,
Your praise for Melissa could have included a comment in your role as a Swiss teacher about what ignorance means. She says:

Title : "Ignorance is outrageous"
Editor: "I would like to say to Mr. Kleinhammer that the only outrage is his ignorant attitude."

"ignorant" means

1. Lacking education or knowledge.
2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
3. Unaware or uninformed."

(source: American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ignorant)

That epithet of his having an "ignorant attitude" is unwarranted. And incorrect.

Mr. Kleinhammer apparently does not know or lacks the correct knowledge of the homosexual sex act and gay lifestyle? Hardly.

What can we possibly do NOT know about homosexuality that will automatically make us say:

‘Oh, boy; was I ever wrong about gay people . . . why, they are just like me!?'

And why, if we don't know all about homosexuality, do gay supporters and liberals think that the rest of society will approve, condone and support homosexuality and the gay lifestyle once we are not ignorant anymore?

Who is ‘unaware' or ‘uninformed' now? "

Amanda R wrote on May 23, 2008 5:19 PM:

" To question: here are some verses for you to look up: Leviticus. 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Romans 1:21-32, and Jude 1:7. Read Jackie K.'s blog about farm animals and toasters and the comments. Maybe you'll get something out of it. Before anyone goes off on me for being a judgemental Christian, I am not judging gays, because I am not God. I believe sin is sin, whether it be a woman sleeping with a woman or me giving the finger to another driver. "

Answer wrote on May 23, 2008 6:02 PM:

" If God himself came down from heaven and condemed this whole thing as blasphemy, the next thing we'd be seeing on this blog is how arrogant God is. Who does He think he is anyway?

I could point out scripture, but would it really matter to any of ya? Doubtful. "

more divorces wrote on May 23, 2008 6:34 PM:

" Just to clarify my point on parades. I fully support the right of assembly and free speech, and even sexual orientation. I do not support obscene behavior or obscene clothing at parades. I once unfortunately drove into a very large parade group in the "Gay" area a number of years back and the people that I saw leaving the parade as it ended were in clear violation of public decency laws in any normal area. I don't think anyone gay or not has a legal right to expose themselves in public to children and anyone unfortunate enough to be driving by with cildren in their cars. They also don't have the right to engage in sexual behavior in public. I really don't care at all what they do at home, but you can't tell me parades where the participants are exposing themselves or whipping each other or licking each other, etc., is a very good use of their precious free speech rights expecailly when there are children watching. Enjoy your rights but don't abuse it and don't act confused when normal people don't approve. "

Re Question wrote on May 23, 2008 7:56 PM:

" Leviticus 18 verses 1-23

I will only put in the first few and the one you asked for because of space

Vs. 1-4 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.

3After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

4Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.

Vs. 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. (synonyms for abomination: outrage, disgrace, scandal, eyesore, atrocity, hatred, dislike, repugnance)

Hope that answers your question. "

Scott Tucker wrote on May 24, 2008 4:10 AM:

" More lessons from Prof. Smug.
"

Not SMUG wrote on May 24, 2008 1:43 PM:

" How dare you say I'm SMUG for answering a question. The question was put out for a Bible scripture saying the Lord's feelings on homosexuality. I have not stated MY opinion at all on this poll, just gave the scripture. You know nothing of my own personal beliefs, I just knew where to find an answer to the question. Get real! "

BJMallory wrote on May 24, 2008 10:04 PM:

" For everyone throwing out scripture to back up their hateful arguments:

Matthew 7 says, as you judge, so shall you be judged. It also says do not worry about the speck in your brother's eye when you have a beam in your own. Jesus straight up says, "Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in YOUR OWN EYE then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your brother's eye." What that says to me is that the message that Jesus has been trying to get through our thick heads all along is WORRY ABOUT AND FIX YOUR OWN SINS before you worry about what others are doing.

Funny thing, Matthew 7 also says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." "

Melissa wrote on May 25, 2008 1:22 AM:

" oh Aljandro, thank you for your english lesson, I must admit my Master's degree is not in English although my writing was perfect throughout school. But I take my stand on knowledge with John Stuart Mill, in his book On Liberty. "He who only knows hisown side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But of he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion"
However, I have been on both sides, I grew up in the church, I was very active. Now I have put church on the back burner, I am still spiritually active, but I can understand what people are saying, What I'm saying is. Not everyone is christian, thus the reason for different religions, STOP PUSHING YOUR RULES ON US!!!!!! "

Melissa wrote on May 25, 2008 1:28 AM:

" Simon, Scott, Lorie and other Supporters

Thank you for standing up. We are not the first minority group and we will not be the last one to have to fight for our rights in America. America has been a battle ground since it's birth. Look in our history books. But our day is coming, we may not live to see it, but it is coming.
Don't hide yourself from those who you rather walk on top of you, hold your head up and remember you are American Citizens and you deserve civil liberties!!

WE ARE HUMANS NOTHING LESS THAN YOU! "

Scott Tucker wrote on May 25, 2008 2:59 AM:

" Dear "Not SMUG", Don't worry. It wasn't you who I was calling smug, but rather an old professor friend of mine, who uses the same moniker with each and every one of his comments. He knows that the comment was just for him. It's all part of this game we play. I am sorry you felt that my comment was directed towards you, but such are the limits of this medium. "

Melissa wrote on May 25, 2008 3:51 AM:

" hey Will,
I think if a person has enough hate in their heart or lask there of, then there is enough room in it to join a hate group. As for misquoting the bible....
I have it, many times, even taught bible studies and was a quest speaker at a church service...heck if you need to know...i even played Jesus in a Easter play. Don't dare assume that I don't know the bible. Don't you dare tell me that I am going to hell. Because the 17 times I have read the bible, the only sin that is unforgivable is blasphamy against the Holy Spirit.
"

Will A wrote on May 25, 2008 3:21 PM:

" Melissa - you wrote "Because the 17 times I have read the bible, the only sin that is unforgivable is blasphamy against the Holy Spirit"

Brilliant! So we both agree that while homosexuality is not an unforgivable sin, it is in fact a sin, much like stealing, adultery, or murder. Glad to hear it. Should we endorse this behavior then, or speak out against it?

Or do you mean to say that since it is a forgivable sin that we should ignore it and let the blood of Christ compensate for it and go on our merry way? Is this something we should do with other sins as well? If homosexuality is just peachy keen, perhaps we should look the other way when a Christian rips off millions of dollars from people in some internet scam. Hey he's forgiven, who cares?

I'm not your enemy here, but it's not for you or I to decide what is right or wrong. I just don't know how you came out of reading the bible 17 times without this in your head.

God is more than just Love. He is also GOD.
"

Will A wrote on May 25, 2008 3:54 PM:

" Melissa - by the way, the paraphrasing scripture comment was pointed at someone else, though I do dare assume you don't know the bible much better than any secular biblical scholar. I'm going to guess that some of the times you've spoken at bible study classes or at church were times where people were eager to discover how you managed to justify being gay and Christian at the same time.

I'll admit I am a little homophobic. The idea of tongue-kissing another dude gives me the heeby-jeebies. (Blech!) At the same time, as a thinking human being, I can overcome that pretty easily by recognizing that gay folks are folks exactly the same as I am, only different.

So though I can't exactly say I understand homosexuality (even though I've had a few gay aquaintances and asked them about it), I can certainly be humane and even cool about it. That the bible takes issue with it is not something I can help though. As Moses said "Who am I that you should complain to me?" "

Melissa wrote on May 25, 2008 7:12 PM:

" Will,
I am not going to ever say that homosexuality is a sin. I was born a lesbian,therefore, there is nothingwrong with me. But since we are talking about about sins...how do you justify the prison ministries goingand forgivingchild molesters, rapists,murderers...I am not saying who is wrong or right. I am saying that there is a value in diversity. I am not easily offended or or find toomany people against me,I am glad that you have no problem asking questions about things you don't know. I have never been a lesbian recruiter, I am not shoving anything down the throats of heteros. I am saying that there is more than one way to live this life and in America we are justified in asking for equality. "

Bible Student wrote on May 25, 2008 9:00 PM:

" Yes the only sin that is unforgivable is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost all others are forgivable sins but you have to repent for them. Repent meaning- "feel or express sincere regret or remorse" "a turning away from sin, disobediance, or rebellion and a turning back to God" (Luke 13:3 )"But unless you repent, you too will perish" (Luke 15: 10 )In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angel of God ober one sinner who repents" When you repent it does not mean you continue to do the act or sin. to truly be sorry for it. And turn from your sin. So this means do it asap because tommorow is not promised. See how merciful He is no sin is to great except one that you can't be forgiven. But how can you be forgiven if you feel you arent doing something wrong. The Bible is saying just what it is - Wrong! Can you be forgiven ofcourse, but in order to be is to turn from you evil ways. That is with anything. If you truly believe you can't have one foot in the door and one out. "

Bible Student wrote on May 25, 2008 9:17 PM:

" Also if you believe in the Bible and even did Bible studies how can you believe only in the things that are conveniant to you? That does not make any sense. Sure anyone can say Dont judge me but be fornicating. Sure it says Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We as christians are only stating what is fact, not our words but His. No one is perfect even us christians we have to repent everyday. Unlike the world we dont turn to drinking or drugs, we turn to Him. That is the difference in me. Wake up God is on His way some say they have been saying that for years. But the signs are there. It says the end is coming soon how do we know "the signs'. It says its like a woman giving birth. How do you know when the baby is coming when the contractions get more intense and closer together. Look at all the things that have happened these last few years. All the earthquakes, tornados, weather changes and things happening places they never have. Since the beginning these things have always been but look more closely... "

Bible Student wrote on May 25, 2008 9:41 PM:

" 2 Timothy (KJV) 3:1-5 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobediant to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous , rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God- having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. Repent for the kingdom is at hand. Read on Matt 24:1-35 "

WatchdogFred wrote on May 26, 2008 3:10 AM:

" To Dose' I could ask you the same question that you asked Alejandro? We straight married people have our marriages and are quite content with them exactly the way they are. Why must you as gays determine that you want what we have therefore we should willingly and without forethought or resistance surrender to your wills? That use to be known as a conquering conquest of a fighting force? To take what is sacred from your enemy and denounce it and try and make the meaning less than it is to a body of people. That is what you as a body of people have set out to do to us straight people. For a group that so wants to portray itself as the vicim you certainly are trying to conquer the sanctity of marriage with a force that is undeniably an attack on a ceremony sanctioned by God himself/herself. You have Gay Rights why must you inherit the earth and take over a tradition between a man and a woman and rewrite wedding vows and commitment to meet your terminology and uses? Do you intend to use the same vows? "

WatchdogFred wrote on May 26, 2008 3:20 AM:

" To BJMallory - God also says that the body is a temple do not put anything in it to destroy it. Yet you puff that one right down the drain. Let he without sin cast the first stone. Does any of this ring a bell yet? We all have sins that is the nature of the beast and that is why Christians are forgiven.

I once again say that had God intended for same sexes to inherit the earth and populate it, he would have placed Adam and Steve in the Garden, not Adam and Eve, or Ellen and Eve? Have you not read that you were created from one of Adam's ribs, if you didn't need Adam you wouldn't have been created. If God wanted the world procreated with gays and lesbians he would have given you the means to procreate. He didn't for a very important reason, it was not his plan. You brought the scriptures into BJ, all I am doing is reminding you, you can't pick and choose you have to read the entire book. Some of you need to start in the last chapter Revelations. "

WatchdogFred wrote on May 26, 2008 3:21 AM:

" To BJMallory - God's one and only son the Lord Jesus gave of his blood and sacrificed himself in the name of God so that our sins would be cleansed in his blood and forgiven against us. For those who believe it shall be. "

question wrote on May 26, 2008 12:02 PM:

" I keep hearing about "majority rule" and yet has anyone forgotten the checks and balances system built into our government? Each branch of government checks and balances the other so that one branch does not become too powerful and start ruling immorally. There have been other decisions that have been overturned by the Supreme Court, not to thwart the "majority rule", but to ensure that the legislation is fair. "

Melissa wrote on May 26, 2008 12:25 PM:

" Ugh I am so sick of hearing god this and god that. I have said it before and will always say it. Christianity is not the only religion and has not been proven to be the truth. Keep your religion out of my bedroom. I could protest all day long the injustices done by the churches. But I am better than that, oh maybe not,,,, ok preist...dirty.. where's the outrage there? a child molester is a child molestor and all of them need to be on death row. and to assume that I have one foot in and one foot out, dear student, is what is wrong with christains...you assume to much about other people and don't see the bad you've done...you can't hide behind jesus. This is how much sense you make..oh yeah..i did kill my wife and three children because I was having an affair with my friends wife, but I have accepted jesus in my heart and know I amforgiven" THe church is so desperate for membership that they take murderers and molestors because they drove the good people away. Convert the murderers, I want to be with good people, not them. "

Shame on homos wrote on May 26, 2008 2:31 PM:

" Why use Gay? It is Homosexuality. Gay means Happy, not perverterd and shameful and abomimable. "

Anne V wrote on May 26, 2008 8:13 PM:

" Everyone is so off topic, that it is ridiculous!!!
The topic is civil liberties for all. Please feel free to marry as many people (adults) that you want, just don't expect me to pay for their upkeep. As for being gay/lesbian, feel free to have a commitment that is recognized by the state of California. If you have a church that you normally go to have your pastor/preacher sanctify your union. I was married by a judge, that is all that I needed.
Please keep God where He belongs, in your heart!
Not all people believe the way Christians do, and that is okay. Freedom of religion!
For all LGBT couples the freedom to marry who you want is just around the corner. Just remember to VOTE!!
Please do remember no one has the right to force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. Whether it be listen to their loud music, or bend to their will. Believe what you will, but allow others the same freedom!! "

Bible Student wrote on May 26, 2008 10:05 PM:

" No not everyone is a Christian but u want to talk and bring up the Bible then do ur research. Dont quote and make God's words to conveniance ur own immoral sins. Lets just say the whole world was gay where would we be then?
If there was no means like frozen embryos. or such. Then u tell me God didn't make it perfect. Its like a artist who paints a portrait and then someone comes and decides to add this and that to their own conveniance. The artist made it what it was, He made us perfect. It was the sin of the world by the devil that changed all that was ever meant. Say what u must but it is what it is, and though i may not convince u otherwise i will say hopefully someone will see the light. Dont try and convince me ur in the right and i am in the wrong cause if it were meant u wouldn't need science to reproduce. Amen "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 27, 2008 12:37 AM:

" Melissa,
You know what you are saying has some validity to it. However, and you and I both know that this is not the scenario but it is supposed to be a molester who repents is saying I will never do it again. Well we both know that they are repeat offenders, so that doesn't hold water. But all sins except for one is forgiven, if in your heart you truly repent. You say that the Christian way is not for you, and I respect that, I respect that to the degree I wish more gay people were as honest about it as you and Summer are. They profess to be both Gay and Christian and I think that is impossible. You cannot due justice to either of those and have both beliefs they are contradictory. When it comes to the Muslim faith your not even allowed to be on their radar or it's a death sentence. Way to extreme in my book, God is not the killer man is and man is the one that will pay for it in due time. So we do agree on something. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 27, 2008 12:40 AM:

" Dandre'
It finally dawned on me you are catholic and went to catholic schools for twelve years. No wonder we can't agree, Catholics and Christians seldom do agree on anything. So which Bible did you read from cover to cover three times, the first testament?
No wonder the LDS group hasn't entered they use another book completely along with the Bible.
Where do the Jehovah's come on this issue? Anyone care to speak up from that area?
"

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 27, 2008 12:45 AM:

" Melissa,
I do hope that you and Summer are happy for all of time you have on earth. It sounds like you are using sound logic where Ethan is concerned. He should be first and foremost in your relationship, decisions and life in general. Kids are a lot of work but there is no other precious gift more meaningful and true than that of your children.
Just a word of advice at about age 17 years you will be accused of knowing absolutely nothing, but by about age 21 years you'll find he has all the respect in the world for both your judgement and your advice. You will become enormously more intelligent than when he first hit 16 years of age. You will have all the worlds answers and he will finally decide he really knows absolutely nothing about anything. But the rewards are simply a bounty of happiness for life. Good Luck to all three of you. "

melissa wrote on May 27, 2008 2:41 AM:

" hey shame...
Why say you're straight..i'm sure you fell of the pure road a few times.
There is no shame in being who we are. I am a HOMO!!!! however, I consider myself something I can't publish here.
With all the sins you heteros have commited I would think you would be the last to judge.

there is no shame here, at least not from me. I am secure and proud of who I am, where my life is, and what I can contribute to society..just look....I got a community to dicuss and think (at least I hope people think before they blog) what have you done?
I am a people watcher, I love people. I watch you when I'm out in town, do you have the gaul to talk to me like this in person? or do you hide behind the computer? I am open for conversation, you cannot degrade me, I am a human. Love me or hate, but do not dare judge me if you do not know me. "

Scott Tucker wrote on May 27, 2008 10:41 AM:

" "Catholics and Christians seldom do agree on anything."

Watchdog, the last time I checked, the Catholic church was founded on the beliefs of Christ, which makes them...Christians.

Be more specific with your denominations. "

Stephanie wrote on May 27, 2008 3:51 PM:

" To every Christian who reads this: The pro-gay rights groups are uniting to defile what we believe to be a holy union between a man, a woman, and God. I say to let them have their fun in the bedroom. I do not want to get into a debate over someone else's perversion. I will not however stand for them seeking to implement their sex-life as public policy. We need to love our neighbors and embrace the sinners because that is what God calls on us to do just as Jesus did. We do not however need to love the sin or embrace the sin. Christians, love your gay neighbor and pray for him to find God's love and forgiveness that they may turn away from where evil has lead them. At the same time, be proactive. Vote down this threat to the sanctity of marriage. If Kings County has a gay pride parade, be ready for a Christian pride parade to follow. At least that will be something you can take your kids to without having an awkward talk about the difference between trannies and cross-dressers are. "

Watchdog wrote on May 27, 2008 4:52 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - you could serve those seniors MRE's (Meals Ready to Eat) and those people would be satisfied. It is more about the social events, bingo, but the nutritional attribute is the icing on the cake. Take that away and you miss it all by miles. People who partake in those services have a reasonable meal at a reasonable cost, don't you think they deserve that five days a week for all the five day work weeks they contributed to us? Some of those people would go months without anyone checking on them if it weren't for that facility. Alot of those seniors have family scattered all over the states and California may not be one of them. That's part of the service daily a head count is taken and reported to John Davis office in Visalia from workers in the individual centers. John Davis wants more support from a casino let him make a drive to Porterville and request it from the Yokut Tribe? I for one think the offer by Tachi is very generous and shows once again they support those who support them. "

question wrote on May 27, 2008 5:18 PM:

" I find it interesting that the debate on here seems to be Christians versus gay supporters. I brought up the issue of checks and balances in our government, which so far has been ignored. Is no one willing to address this part of the issue? Are you so wrapped up in your Bible quotes and emotional fodder that you are unwilling to talk about this? Or are you ignorant (purposefully or not) of the way our government works? "

Scott Tucker wrote on May 28, 2008 11:23 AM:

" Watchdog:

Um...well...ok, thanks for the info. Sorry if I don't follow, but your last post from May 27, 2008 @ 6:52PM came way out of left field.

Can you elaborate and let us curious readers know where you are going with MRE's, John Davis, and the Yokut Tribe? "

Will A wrote on May 28, 2008 11:55 AM:

" Question - That's a valid point I didn't see before because the thread was already long enough to where I didn't want to bother reading everything. Thanks for bringing it up again.

My understanding of Supreme Court decisions is that they are allowed to set precident like any other court, but that their job is to interpret the law, not create new law. In no ways are they to stretch their decision making to things that are beyond their jurisdiction, that being the allowances of the constitition. So basically they make rulings based off the constituion, and not some arbitrary sense of "fairness".

I couldn't tell you the name of the case, but there was a civil rights case brought before the court decades ago where blacks were not being allowed to eat in certain restaurants or stay at certain hotels in the south, at the discretion of the business owners. The Supreme Court didn't pound their fist on the table and say it wasn't fair - they interrpreted the law of inter-state commerce to mean that no state shall impede the exchange of business from other states. Courts interpret the law, they don't legislate it. "

Will A wrote on May 28, 2008 12:15 PM:

" Melissa - if you want to delete my entries and stifle debate I guess that's your right, but it doesn't speak very well about your feelings about the right to free-speech, especially when I never engage in name-calling or profanity.

Maybe I just struck too close to home. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 28, 2008 3:52 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - that was an invitation to you liberals to come on over to the section in the new blog referring to John Davis the Department Head of Kings Tulare Counties Agency on Aging Services. I think his steps being taken to shut down the senior centers meals in Lemoore which is the article is far more important than this issue ever will be.

I can't possibly expect you to be with the in crowd and in touch with what's going on in the community afterall you are a History Teacher living in Switzerland? How can you be expected to know anything about Hanford/Lemoore, you foresake them both for your beloved Swtizerland.

Anyway, John Davis like yourself is a highly over paid civil servant who makes one and a half times the budget he oversees, not to mention benefits and office staff etc., etc., etc. but can't manage to supply meals to the seniors in Hanford any longer.

The Yokut's are the tribe of Indians who live in Porterville in the mountains and operate a casino like the Tachi Indians who offered to bail Lemoore out.

10k to 47k in a flash. "

question wrote on May 28, 2008 3:54 PM:

" Exactly, Will A! They did not legislate a new law in this case. They simply stated that the current law that bars people from marrying based on their sexual orientation is unconstitutional. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 28, 2008 4:00 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - well I guess the dog owes you an appology afterall, I just read what you were questioning, I loat my place and thought I was in the other article when I wrote that response.

Sorry when you get older you'll certainly understand. Sometimes you misplace your glasses only to realize they are on your head, what can I say. "

Will A wrote on May 28, 2008 5:01 PM:

" Question - Personally my take on it is that the Federal Govt has no business whatsoever having any say on this kind of thing. The US constitution doesn't give the Federal Govt. the right to do get this involved in individual's issues that don't threaten national security or something, far as I know. States need to decide for themselves what they want to do with the gay marriage issue. Unfortunately for California, you all DID decide and that still wasn't good enough apparently.

As far as the court declaring it unconstitutional, it sets a another precident not only for gay marriage cases around the country, but also makes a statement that popular voting is worthless. Congratulations. "

Melissa wrote on May 28, 2008 8:11 PM:

" Will,

I have no idea what your talking about, I didn't know I could delete blogs....

But you're right, I am all for free speech and I would never take that right away "

Scott Tucker wrote on May 29, 2008 12:02 AM:

" Watchdog, thanks for explaining yourself. Things make more sense now. I, too, have posted comments, only to find out later that I posted the in the wrong place, so I know how you feel. And as for getting older, I am not yet as old as you claim to be, but today is my birthday, so I am unwillingly on my way.

I may no longer live in Hanford, but that does not mean that I have forsaken the city. If that were the case, then I wouldn't be reading these comments or actively participating in these discussions at all. But you are correct to some extent, I am a victim of geography and not even the wonderful medium of the www can change that.

A few questions: Do you know just how much I earn teaching in Switzerland that you feel justified in claiming that I am overpaid? And do you feel that teachers in general are overpaid?

Yes, I know who the Yokuts are. I did make diaramas and have California history in the Hanford school system, you know. "

Dandre wrote on May 29, 2008 1:26 PM:

" The ‘mud fight’ has once again created the pile of ‘strawmen’ that has become ‘business as usual’ for this version of the republican party.
This is a question of ‘civil rights’. The argument that ‘marriage’ is not specifically mentioned in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence is not relevant because none of these documents mentions ‘drinking fountains’ or ‘bus seats’ or ‘inter-racial marriage’ but these ‘rights’ have precedent under ‘judicial jurisdiction’. This ‘basic’ Constitutional question is not new.
The ‘majority’ cannot enact laws to ‘oppress’ the minority and every time this debate rears its head you can juxtapose the arguments made by the oppressors, which, by their argument 61% of the electorate are in favor of the ‘oppression’. Well, those are old numbers because ‘recent’ polls show 51% of the electorate ‘supports’ gay marriage. These numbers have steadily moved in the direction of the oppressed as proof of ‘given all the facts’ Americans are Progressive. "

Dandre wrote on May 29, 2008 1:28 PM:

" Biologically, in the first 90 days after conception, our sexuality is influenced more than anything that is going to happen after we are born. Before you ‘oppressors’ go off, ‘sexuality’ covers not only who we are attracted to but also all the ‘traits’ both male and female we will display, i.e., voice range, amount of body hair, athleticism, body mass, etc, etc. The ‘oppressors’ are the ones who have ‘no right’ to bring this argument or any other argument into the ‘privacy’ of our bedrooms!
If being Gay is the ‘abomination and sin’ how come God didn’t see fit to put it in His ‘top ten list’? There is no ‘Thou shall not be Gay!’ Commandment but there are several Commandments that are being trampled on by these oppressors’ posts.
And to quote other scripture, adulterers and blasphemers were stoned to death, where was that example of a ‘gay guy’ being put to death? Jesus Christ lashed out at the money changers but never mentioned homosexuality…. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on May 29, 2008 1:55 PM:

" Happy Birthday, Scott! "

question wrote on May 29, 2008 4:08 PM:

" Will A, you got it right, until you said this " but also makes a statement that popular voting is worthless." Again, the Supreme Court is there as part of the checks and balances system. Under the logic of the "popular vote", anything is legal as long as it receives the "popular vote." Even though an idea may be popular, this does not mean it is constitutional. "

Will A wrote on May 29, 2008 5:35 PM:

" Dandre - I was actually arguing that These sorts of things really have no place being legislated on by the federal govt anyway, since the constitution limits the powers of the federal govt quite a bit, allocating any further rule making to the states themselves. Our founders were very much about freedom and individual choice, and I think they would echo my sentiment that the feds should butt out of the gay marriage issue and let states decide for themselves.

But since you feel this is a human rights issue, let's examine that a sec. We have the right to get married to whomever we want, but aren't there still restrictions placed on marriage? Surely you wouldn't try to argue that kids have the right to wed or that polygamy is a good way to do things. Unless you're Dennis Rodman people might think it was a little odd to marry yourself. What if you really love your pet? like literally?

Can we really call marriage a "right"? If so, then anyone should be able to do it any way they darn well please. Like breathing. But doesn't that seem somehow wrong? "

Will A wrote on May 29, 2008 6:30 PM:

" Dandre - Further, Not sure where you're getting your medical facts from, but as far as I know the nature vs. nurture debate is still going on. From personal experience I can say that we may be born with certain proclivities, or learn them over time, but we all still make choices, and nothing is going to change that. I doubt there is any force on earth that you MAKE you be gay or straight. You ultimately choose. Just my opinion.

Being gay probably didn't make the top 10 list because it's not as important to avoid as murdering your neighbor. Jesus also had bigger fish to fry. Still, we cannot ignore the Apostle Paul in the New Testament, or rules regarding sex in the Old Testament just because it's inconvenient.

Why should it be unusual for Christians to say that Homosexuality is not acceptable behavior? It's not like we wrote the bible. You may as well condemn Jews and Muslims for subverting the Pork industry. Gimme a break already. Some people are just genuine homophobes, but don't mistake devotion to God for intolerance. "

Dandre wrote on May 29, 2008 6:40 PM:

" This was not the Feds, and your arguments have nothing to do with the Constitutional questions, the defining of two people is the question. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 29, 2008 6:41 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - well Scott you are the one who asked the question are you not "Who are the Yokuts"? In your previous questions, I was just explaining who they were for you.

Were you drafted into this position as teacher? No I don't know how much you make and it is none of my business. But according to some of your philosophies I can't honestly say Switzerland is getting it's best bang for it's buck.

As for all teachers being over paid no, I think some deserve more and I think some deserve less. Those who claim to be teachers yet don't demonstrate they are should give up some of their pay to those who do demonstrate they are qualified teachers.

Those who just set at their desk waiting for that retirement handshake and do nothing else in scholastics or extra curricular events should be setting in the Welfare Office doling out checks to the students they failed and let down. So they could see the result of their incompetent behavior as a teacher of young minds. Or flipping burgers! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 29, 2008 6:47 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - Continued you brought this up so it may take a little explaining. I had several experiences in school some good some bad but at the helm of those experiences was a teacher. Who in all practicality had control of the experience. I was whipped with a yard stick, I was hit on the knuckles in High School by a Typing teacher, all of whom thought their actions permissible and funny. I on the other hand did not, and if they were teaching today they would probably have been prosecuted for their actions. So do I harbor some resentment towards teachers, yes and rightfully so.

But then their were other examples of what I like to call caring teachers who felt it was their duty to give you the best education possible. One of my elementary teachers and her husband had a farm when it came to science class she would take students on a tour, her husband would spend a great amount of time explaining all the operations from milking cows to grafting trees. Not only was it educational it left lasting images in all our minds. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 29, 2008 6:53 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - Continued this was all done at her own expense and she provided everyone a lunch which contain all the items which we were learning about from the farm that day. None of us will ever forget it. A caring teacher who wants to use something besides you following with your finger in a book she was reading.

Then on to middle school and everyone's favorite shop teacher Mr. Parker, whom every wise guy knew well and I swear the man had eyes in the back of his head. He saw things with his back turned to the class, I've never seen done before. But he was a strict instructor but a marvel when it came to learning about woods and different saws and sanders and wood projects. Another good example of a man who put himself out there and did an exemplary job.

My problem is the two examples that I gave you were paid the same amount as their counterparts and that is not fair, just or the way it should be. Some will say well they were only doing their jobs, well the others weren't then. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 29, 2008 7:00 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - Continued I think the pay system for teachers should be based on their performance as it is in any private sector job. The ability demonstrated to teach their students and the improvement that class shows should be the basis for the teachers salary the following year. If the students don't improve the salary of the teacher does not rise. Tenure should disappear from the school system entirely.

Students as well as Teachers need to be shown that your productivity is the basis for your pay. If you produce nothing you should receive nothing in return. If you are an over achiever and you teach more than the average bear to your class then you should be rewarded with more money.

I guarnatee if you put these practices into place the number of students graduating High School would increase beyond belief. There is no program in place to make a teacher or student more productive than the bare minimum required. Everyone needs and deserves a carrot, a goal, a reward for their hard work, students and teachers alike. You can't cash a best Teacher Award. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 29, 2008 7:06 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - In otherwords for those teachers who want to produce the minimum their should be a much lower minimum salary available to them. They will get discouraged drop out of teaching and someone who is more motivated will take their place. It is a win win for the School District, Students and Parents alike.

Isn't that how it works in the Private Sector - you do minimum work you get minimum wage? Too many people get comfortable, lethargic, and apathy sets in and who suffers? Johnny and Mary who are there for an education! I think the teachers make their positions as difficult as the students and culture they are teaching in today does? Many have given up on progress of any kind and resolve theirselves to making it through another school year by the skin of their teeth. When you and I went to school the teacher's encourage you to become a teacher now they belly ache so much the students don't even want anything to do with it. Then you wonder why there is a decline in teachers. Duh! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 29, 2008 7:16 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - sorry to bore everyone with this, but I am just trying to answer Scott Tucker.

How do the rest of you feel? I'm not saying that this is how all teachers are, what I am saying is there exists enough of them within the system to create the scenario I have given. It's a shame they can't do their jobs more effectively.

Yes there were those same types when I was a student but their numbers were much lower. Those shameful teachers who used their classroom as a pulpit when it came time for wage negotiations and they felt they were getting a raw deal. Usually the biggest complainer was the worst teacher. So they would present their case so we would go home like repeatng little birds delivering the message to dear ol mom and dad, so they could call the district office and raise the dickens. That my fellow bloggers is not right and I was subjected to the same nonsense when my son was in school.

So weigh in tell me I'm full of crap and your kids are getting the best education. "

Will A wrote on May 29, 2008 9:38 PM:

" Dandre - My response had nothing to do with the issue you raised, where majority may be the majority but still be wrong because I should think that would be painfully obvious to anyone that paid attention to history class in high school.

What I did say was that we do indeed have restrictions on marriage. I mentioned a few instances where we would not allow people to get married, because we, as a culture, feel it would be wrong. You can call this a case about definition of people, but it's still about homosexuals using the institute of marriage.

See, 20-30 years ago, we probably would have been adding gay marriage to that list of unacceptables as common sense. So what exactly was it that changed over this time, where now we're all on board with it?

One may suppose that it's simply evolution of culture or something. I think however, given the advent of mass communication and entertainment, and with the liberal mindset so prevalent in government these days that would have made JFK ashamed to call himself a democrat, that the few powerful in these fields have wagged the dog.

So what's next... "

Dandre wrote on May 30, 2008 1:22 AM:

" Will... When was the last time you said or read the Ten Commandments? Not going to church on Sunday made the list, disobeying your parents made the list, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY made the list and murder made the list at #5, but when God had the chance he didn’t say anything about homosexuality and Jesus Christ in his 33 years on earth didn’t either!
Blaming God for your homophobia doesn’t work.
And Biology is what it is! My sexuality was never a choice for me and if yours was for you, you make my argument!
Mother nature is a world of variance and to not understand that is naïve.
Gays that come from heterosexual homes ‘learned’ from whom? Why would anyone choose to be persecuted and tormented by the bigoted ignorance these people have to put up with while trying to be the loving people God created. "

Scott Tucker wrote on May 30, 2008 5:20 AM:

" Alejandro, Thanks for the birthday wishes. Another year older, another year wiser, but I am sure that, in my case, you might argue that point! ;-)

Watchdog, if you will re-read my comment where I questioned your post out of left-field, I did not ask you to tell me who the Yokuts are, but rather I asked you to explain to us where you were headed in your argument by referencing them. Thanks for your long explanation regarding teaching and salaries. You do raise good points about holding teachers accountable and making sure that they are perfoming their jobs effectively. "

Will A wrote on May 30, 2008 11:04 AM:

" I referenced the Ten Commandments before I wrote my response. I already said that both the 10 commandments and Christ probably had bigger fish to fry. It is kind of silly though to try and say that Christ never addressed homosexuality in all his years on earth, since all his words were not recorded, were they? It's not like homosexuality is the sin of all sins, but again, like I already said we cannot ignore the Apostle Paul or the other rules God laid down through Moses in the Old Testament just because it's inconvenient. I'm gonna guess that I'm probably a little more well-versed than you.

As far as Mother Nature goes, homosexuals win the Darwin award for having no capacity to reproduce naturally. Doesn't really make biological sense, does it. It's an abberation even in the strictest scientific way.

Ignorance really is outrageous, but it goes both ways. How about that.

John B. Calhoun, a noted sociologist for his experiments with rat populations might say you Californians just need a little more space. Check the bottom half of page 2.

http://158.143.192.210/collections/economicHistory/pdf/FACTSPDF/2308Ramadams.pdf

Maybe those Red states with the lower populations aint so bad. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 30, 2008 1:48 PM:

" Belated Happy Birthday Scott Tucker. "

out wrote on May 30, 2008 4:36 PM:

" To Will : So if were living by what the bible tells us, why have so many things changed since the bible was written? So its okay for women to be raped as long as the rapist pays the father or marry's her?? Or only some things are meant to change, like the things you want and agree with...is that it. So back in biblical times, homosexualality was between to loving consenting adults......or was it mainly perverts like older men with young boys in the city of sodom? I don't remember the bible explaining homosexual relationships as loving caring adults.
You must be a lot older to still be practicing your beliefs in old biblical times, I'm sorry for you.
Besides one's relationship with God is between God and that person, you shouldn't be so worried about homosexuals lives, there are lots of other more important practices in this day to worry about. "

Sam wrote on May 30, 2008 4:45 PM:

" Procreation???? Is that what relationships and love is all about?? COME ON PEOPLE!!!! That is sad. I know my God has taught me about love and caring for the people I love. My wife never had the chance to be pregnant due to medical issues, so in your biblical eyes I guess I shouldn't have married her?? That is outrageous. I really feel sorry for the people who actually think marriage is all about procreation.
Not everyone needs the tools or body parts to have babies we have plenty of irresponcible heterosexuals that provide it for us. Adoption is a beautiful thing.
Think about things before you just blurt out mean things regarding their lives. Don't forget we are all human and created by God. "

Will A wrote on May 30, 2008 5:49 PM:

" Jeez... You guys are all emotion, huh?

Out - My faith doesn't agree with Gay marriage, so I should just shut up? Nice. Who's being intolerant again? I forget...

By the way, people really haven't changed all that much in the last 4000 years. I would venture to say we haven't changed at all.

Sam - Putting words in my mouth. Of course you should have married your wife. How your case has anything to do with gay marriage or anything else I said is beyond me. "

Dandre wrote on May 30, 2008 6:01 PM:

" will.. I didn't have to reference the 10 Commandments, I already knew them and as far as being 'more versed', I don't think so. Again, I studied the Bible and its origins for an hour a day, 5 days a week for 12 years.
The Ten Commandments, according to scripture, were WRITTEN by the Hand of God and it had nothing to do with bigger 'fish to fry'. God set His priorities directly with these rules and being envious of your neighbor's wife and property were part of those priorities, but no mention of homosexuality. His ‘silence’ speaks volumes!
If you believe that the Bible was inspired than anything Jesus Christ said especially during His Ministry that was important to that Ministry was recorded and He never brought it up, no matter what you say, I am more inclined to believe His Silence than your conflations.
Referencing hearsay is not evidence of God's priorities when He laid out His Top Ten! "

Dandre wrote on May 30, 2008 6:03 PM:

" As far as your premise that Gay is a life style, ‘prove it’. You try to bring in all these distractions with Darwin and Dennis Rodman but do you know what occurs when the egg provided by your mother and the sperm provided by your father combine to form you? From your comments it does not sound like you do. And you understand it 1000 times more than the guys who wrote the Bible.
Ignorance "

Melissa wrote on May 30, 2008 10:50 PM:

" Will, I venture to say in the last 4000 years we have changed. The lovely thing about humans and society is that it is evolution. No one can say that we have found the truth for many things and even if we may have found a truth is it absolute? We in our American history, have found truths and then disproved them, because that how growth happens.
Look at us,where is the slavery? the ban on woman/blackkkkkvoting? we don't have them because society grew. As individuals, some people refuse to change, they hold on to hate, and discrimination. And although that is sad to see staleness in our evolution, we are no more justified in silencing one man, than we are of silencing all of mankind.
America was founded by diverse people looking for freedom, some have found it, and before the end of American rule, I hope that all find freedom. "

birddog wrote on Jun 2, 2008 6:31 AM:

" I am no bible scholar, but I do remember two cities in the Old Testament by the name of Sodom and Gomorrah. The things that took place in those cities were so detesting to God that he rained down brimstone on those cities and destroyed every living creature in them. And he also states in the Bible that man shall not lay with man, and woman shall not lay with woman. Thats good enough for me, I'll take his instructions. But I will also take other instructions from God, such as; judge not lest ye be judged, and pray for the sinners that thier souls may be saved. I will continue to pray for you and those like you miss. Denton, but I will not stand in your way if you choose eternal damnation. God bless and good luck. Oh and just to let you know I will not be attending your parade, but I will not picket it either. Your right in the United States of America you have the right to assemble in a peacfull manner, and now you may have the right to marry whom ever you like. Also remember I have the right to dis-approve "

Will A wrote on Jun 2, 2008 10:38 AM:

" Dandre - Just because it wasn't mentioned in the 10 Commandments doesn't mean He didn't address homosexuality. Being a learned biblical scholar as you are I'm sure you know that. Running a red light and hitting my car isn't in my top 10 list of things I don't want you to do, but I'd still rather you didn't do it. You're trying to justify with God, which is great, but you cannot just up and ignore other parts of scripture if you're going to use scripture as a defence. Make sense?

Melissa - Only the scenery has changed. "

jeff wrote on Jun 2, 2008 3:13 PM:

" Will A, I only hope that you follow your own advice. If you try and use scripture to justify making it illegal for homosexuals to get married I would imagine you also think owning slaves is a perfectly fine thing to do and when children are defiant or get caught under age drinking they should be stoned at the city gates. If you truly believe that our society hasn’t changed then you must have never left your house, turned on the TV, read a newspaper or listened to the radio since the day you were born. "

Will A wrote on Jun 2, 2008 5:22 PM:

" Jeff - I would never use scripture to justify making it illegal for homosexuals to marry. Our judicial and legislative systems can hardly be called remotely Christian anymore anyway. Besides, our forefathers stated pretty clearly that government has no business dictating religion to the masses. I only bring up scripture because people keep on bring it up as if it justifies homosexuality morally.

I think we can look at homosexuality from a purely pragmatic standpoint and see it as unecessary and possibly harmful to our culture as a whole. I've already demonstrated it does nothing good for the gene pool. Given the information from Calhoun's Rat experiments it seems to me a strong possibility that homosexuality may be simply a result of overcrowding. It's not to say that Gay people aren't perfectly cool, great people. I know a few. What do we, as a culture though, embrace as acceptable practice?

I've already shown that we do not allow marriage under certain conditions now. How is this hard to get? I don't expect many to agree with me, but that's my opinion.

I have no prob at all with gay people. I have a problem with gay marriage. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 2, 2008 10:51 PM:

" Jeff, you are right!
And Melissa, people who don’t believe in evolution are incapable of it, usually don’t recognize it and when they do, try to demonize it. Patience… "

jeff wrote on Jun 3, 2008 12:26 PM:

" Will, thanks for replying and I respect you for leaving religious beliefs out of the equation and applaud you for it actually. If your comment about us not progressing in the ways of marriage I still disagree with you. Black people can now get married and marry white people. That is not how our country was started so that is change. Your comments about homosexuals not being able to propagate the species therefore making marriage obsolete for them is puzzling. Do you think 2 straight people who never intend on having children should also not be allowed to marry? What about a straight couple that can’t have children for a medical reason, should they also not be allowed to marry? There are hundreds of thousands of children who don’t have parents; any couple regardless of sexual orientation would be more likely to adopt a child than a single person so I also don’t believe they serve no purpose in our society. I see no reason for you to have to demonstrate that we do not allow marriages under certain conditions ‘now’, isn’t that the whole point of this? "

Will A wrote on Jun 3, 2008 4:42 PM:

" jeff - This is the last thing I'm going to post on this because this thread is old, and if all the things I've said so far don't matter to people I'm not sure what else I can offer.

In answer to you though, kids learn from their parents. What we currently have in our society is a small percentage of folks who prefer having sex with same-sex partners. As they adopt very young children, they're going to learn the behavior and practive it themselves. At this point you are probably going to say something like "No no, we're not going to force anything on them, but just teach them to be tolerant." It doesn't matter what you say with kids, it matters what you do... and they will copy you. So then we have an expanding percentage of our population learning this behavior and practicing it. "So what?" You may say. "What's the bad thing about that?" "

Will A wrote on Jun 3, 2008 4:51 PM:

" Besides further screwing up our mating habits and confusing the hell out of our society that already suffers from a major breakdown of the family unit due to lack of moral fiber among the straight, gay marriage is just one more thing that propagates the notion that morals are unimportant. Can you seriously sit there and tell me that what we saw with the FLDS church in Texas is bad? So they got kids pregnant. Who are you to place judgement on them if that's their lifestyle? Sounds silly, right? What do kids know about sexual love that they could possibly make decisions about their partner, and yet people would have probably said the same thing about gay marriage 20-30 years ago.

Homosexuality has always been a staple of human societies throughout history. It's not like it's anything new. Despite what the leadership of Iran says, I have no doubt gays lives there too. It's nothing weird, but it's nothing that we should advance either.

Bottom line: This is about nothing but legitimacy. Gay people wanna fit in and be mainstream. Simple as that. If it were about civil rights, civil unions would suffice. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 3, 2008 5:43 PM:

" Someone here posted this claim:

"...any couple regardless of sexual orientation would be more likely to adopt a child than a single person."

I ask: could someone here prove it - factually? "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 3, 2008 6:22 PM:

" Will A.

You are correct in your premises - all of them - and are quite proficient in expressing them. I agree with you 100%.

People have to have cultural standards and limits as to what is acceptable to the members of society.

Marriage was a social institution long before it became a legal contract. Cultures across the world defined our basic man-woman marriage bond as the traditional norm.

Here is a case of power, politics, and the law changing the basic definition of a social institution which has existed for thousands of years - quite nicely.

So call it anything but marriage and the problem will be solved. "

jeff wrote on Jun 4, 2008 8:12 AM:

" Will, I do agree that children do learn by example but if that is 100% the case across the board how do you explain gay people who come from straight families? The majority of gay people in this country were raised in a father and mother household or by a single straight parent. I do think that what the FLDS does is bad but they indoctrinate their children which is not the same as learned behavior. I also think that the state of Texas was wrong in invading the compound but that’s another story. This is about nothing else but civil rights and civil unions could never suffice because they do not grant all the same rights as ‘Marriage’. Some of your wording makes me feel that I must state this. I am not a homosexual, I am a straight man in a relationship with a woman. I just can’t stand watching bigotries and oppression rule the law of the land and that is exactly how I see this.

Alejandro, read this http://www.marriagedebate.com/pdf/iMAPPmarriage.adoption.pdf "

jeff wrote on Jun 4, 2008 8:22 AM:

" I don’t understand this statement ‘Besides further screwing up our mating habits and confusing the hell out of our society’ I know I’m not confused, I know I’m straight just as gay people know that they are gay. The only people who are confused will continue to be confused until they admit their sexuality to themselves. As for screwing up our mating habits, how would legalizing gay marriage do this? These people are already gay practicing gay sex. Keeping it illegal for them to marry will not make them decide to suddenly become straight and start mating with the opposite sex. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 4, 2008 10:21 AM:

" The good thing about social norms is that they are man-made and can change over time. The current debate regarding gay marriage reflects the changing norms of our society. A USA/Gallup Poll published today says that 63% of adults believe that same-sex marriage is a private decision between those involved and that the government should not regulate/prohibit whether gays and lesbians can marry the people they choose. Let's just hope that those 63% decide to show up and vote against any initiative the right-wingers put forth to change the CA constitution in November. I know that I will be voting against any such initiative.

So, either you get on board and accept the fact that our society is changing for the better, or you decide to stay stuck in the past griping and moaning, letting your fears dictate how you lead your lives. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 4, 2008 11:36 AM:

" Scott Tucker - I ask you how is your quality of life in Switzerland going to be changed by voting for/against this ammendment? I would say slim and none, how about you.

I agree with the way the ammendment is currently written, I in good conscience cannot agree to vote for it either. However, if some great american wished to give the gay and lesbian all that this ammendment takes away and still not call it marriage, I would most assuredly vote for it and be happy to do so.

The way I look at the vote in November is hetrosexuals are given two choices vote down the rights of gays and lesbians and salvage the marriage as we know it today, or vote against the ammendment and sacrifice marriage to give the gay and lesbian community their rights. In my estimation that really isn't a choice, how say you?

Happy hunting, do you shoot wild or tame game in Switzerland seeing as how you are neutral? Just a question for those in the know? "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 4, 2008 1:55 PM:

" Scott says:
"So, either you get on board and accept the fact that our society is changing for the better . . . "

This is a great example of why you and I differ Scott.

Your liberal progressive view of what is "better" for the rest of us ispretentious, pedantic, and elitist, smacking of the ‘I am smarter so I know what's best for you' philosophy.

Even more outrageous is the fact that you are not even a resident of Hanford, Kings County, California, or the United States, yet you sit in judgment from afar with the excuse ‘my family still lives in the area.' They should speak for themselves if so motivated, Scott. Why don't they?

Also, you said: "I know that I will be voting against any such initiative."

How many years can you be absent from California and still be considered a state citizen with voting rights?

What - all you have to do is keep you parent's address and pretend you are only temporarily out of the state for business or personal reasons? Or can you keep on saying you are a resident ad infinitum? "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 4, 2008 2:35 PM:

" An off-base poster here kindly referred me to:
"Alejandro, read this http://www.marriagedebate.com/pdf/iMAPPmarriage.adoption.pdf."

This excellent paper actually states, and I quote directly:

"Social scientists have not directly
compared child well-being in single-parent
versus married couple (or unmarried couple)
adoptions.

...However, a large amount of social
science evidence strongly suggests that, of all
the family structures well-studied,
children do best when raised by married mothers and fathers."

So, the fact that "children do best when raised by married mothers and fathers" is universally recognized proves that marriage between two mommies or two daddies are not only not normal and nontraditional - it is not the ‘best' situation for any child.

Homosexual marriage is good for the kids, right folks?

Not! "

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