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First Rights: United States shamed again in Europe

By Nat Hentoff

On May 15, 25 CIA agents and one U.S. Air Force colonel went on trial in Milan, Italy, on charges they kidnapped Italian resident Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr and sent him to Egypt, where he was tortured, including having electrodes attached to various body parts. This is what the CIA calls "an extraordinary rendition" -- flying terrorism suspects to nations known for torturing prisoners, including prisoners from whom the CIA could not extract information.

These operatives of our legendary CIA were caught scarlet-handed, having left a clear trail of cell-phone calls and bills paid at expensive Italian hotels. Also indicted in this contemptuous violation of the International Conventions Against Torture are members of the Italian secret service accused of being complicit with the CIA in this lawless kidnapping,

The United States, of course, refuses to extradite the 26 Americans on trial. After all, the president repeatedly assures the world that "the United States does not torture."

Further diminishing our reputation, the Italian trial of the CIA agents is being held after the unanimous Feb. 8 ruling by the European Court of Human Rights prohibiting governments -- as the March 1 Economist reported -- from deporting "an individual to a state where he may be at risk of torture or other ill-treatment."

Obviously, if it is forbidden for a person to criminally ignore the absolute ban on torture in Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights, is also unlawful to kidnap people and transport them to other countries to be tortured.

Further lowering world respect for our all-too-often shameful post-9/11 human-rights record, George W. Bush (on May 8) vetoed a bill passed by the House and Senate that required the CIA to adhere to the Army Field Manual's rules of interrogation that forbid torture -- already a mandate for all of our other armed services.

As Amnesty International said of that continuing "special power" for the CIA: "The Bush administration continues its stubborn and reckless disregard for basic decency and values the United States should model. The president's action further compounds the incalculable damage to United States' standing at home and abroad."

In Congress, U.S. Representative Edward Markey, D-Mass., and Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., introduced bills in 2007 and earlier to end CIA renditions, but the bills have not moved -- making Congress also a major actor in the derision of our moral -- and our law-enforcement -- standards in many parts of the world.

During their campaigns, I have not heard from Barack Obama, John McCain or Hillary Clinton on whether they will, if elected, act to end this shame of the United States. (McCain, of course, strongly favors "special powers" for the CIA.) And if the Democrats continue to control the next Congress, their congressional leaders -- Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi -- have been indifferent to erasing the stain of our being a torture nation.

In reaction to the president's veto of the legislation that would order the CIA to recognize basic human rights, Scott Atran -- a research scientist at New York's John Jay College (which specializes in criminal law), the University of Michigan and France's National Center for Scientific Research -- made the vital point in a New York Times letter (March 11) that: "America is currently caught in a battle between the competing rhetorics of ... tribalism ... and of humanity. Given our singular military and cultural power in today's world, no less than the future of 250 years of human-rights development rests on how this internal American battle is resolved."

"Americans," Atran continued, "sense that this is a fateful election for our Republic; they may not realize how important it is for the world as a whole."

The present polls do not indicate this priority among our electorate of the world's stake, let alone our own historic human-rights values, in this election. It could help if one of the presidential candidates were to remind voters of how our values have been transmogrified since 9/11 by the present administration -- as insisted on by Dick Cheney in an interview on NBC's "Meet the Press" on Sept. 16, 2001:

"We've got to spend time in the shadows in the intelligence world. A lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done quietly, without any discussion, using sources and methods that are available to our intelligence agencies, if we're going to be successful.

"That's the world these folks operate in, and so it's going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposal, basically, to achieve our objective."

Is America to be a model to the world by resembling our enemies? Who will WE be, then? So this can indeed be a fateful election -- and not only for our Republic.

(June 4, 2008)

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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 4, 2008 11:16 AM:

" Jazz reviewer, novelist, and human rights expert Hentoff again does a good job of bringing the issue of torture and the stain it has left on the the moral fiber of the United States to the attention of his readers. As I have said in past comments, I am firmly against the use of torture and it shames me to great lengths to know that the country of which I am a citizen, the country which I love, has decided to stoop to such depths by torturing human beings. I am sure the torture lovers will have a word or two to say in response to my comment, so let the fun begin! "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 4, 2008 4:33 PM:

" Scott:
He's no human rights 'expert'. When was he a professor, an elected politician, or anything but a man with a column?

"Nat Hentoff is a civil libertarian, free speech absolutist, pro-life advocate, anti-death penalty advocate, jazz critic, historian, biographer and anecdotist, and columnist for the Village Voice, Legal Times, Washington Times, The Progressive, Editor & Publisher, Free Inquiry and Jewish World Review. He was named as one of six 2004 NEA Jazz Masters, the first non-musician to win this prestigious award."

(www.123exp-biographies.com/t/00034166910/)

He's no expert just as you don't live in America. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 4, 2008 11:18 PM:

" Scott, this Country needs good Ambassadors and you sound like you fit the bill. Most of the sheeple from this administration are going to have to be careful about traveling abroad for fear of international warrants. Just because Ms Pelosi took impeachment off the table doesn't mean that justice can't be served and the ‘gestapo’ tactics of this group of 'neo-cowards' is a national disgrace.
Torture is about as UN-American as it gets, so, I guess attacking the messenger is the talking point from the Kings Co experts! "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 5, 2008 12:19 AM:

" Whatever. "

Safe at home wrote on Jun 5, 2008 8:15 AM:

" I tire of your liberal rantings of protecting the terrorist's "rights". The "human rights" activists, the ACLU, Amnesty International, and you, have contributed more to the demise of our nation than any politician ever could. You champion prisoners rights, giving inmates (convicted murderers, rapists, child molesters) more rights than their victims and create resort prisons where the gangs are allowed to flourish at the great expense (monetarily and societal) of the public at large. These are the victims of crime and terrorism that were the origin of the Human Rights movement. It was started to protect the innocent masses from being unduely persecuted. You have turned it into an anti-american refuge for terrorists and criminals. Go away. We tire of you! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 5, 2008 8:45 AM:

" The element here that my friend the left wing Democrat fails to mention is the entirely majoritive Democratic Congress refuses to take action against torture and the special entitlements the CIA have privilege of and use.

The two front running Democrats don't care to speak out against torture, gee wonder why? Could it be that people in the know may not condone the use of torture but yet cannot discredit the information gathered by using it.

Do you think the service members and civilians in Iraq were tortured prior to their beheading and do you not consider beheading to be torture Scott Tucker?

I've said it before and I'll say it again if we adopted some of the techniques used by Isreal 9/11 very well may never have occured. Isreal uses whatever means are at it's disposal to let their enemies know up front you mess with us you pay a price. If the United States would take that position instead of tryng to play Policeman of the world we'd be significantly better off.

Do you think Isreal would have given Saddam 17 second chances? I for one do not. "

Sid wrote on Jun 5, 2008 8:54 AM:

" Scott,

I am admittedly a little uncomfortable with the torture issue vis-a-vis the USA...

However, there is still that going TOO FAR as you have expressed you would do: That being the willing and knowing sacrifice of your own family members rather than a mere water-boarding which would save them from certain death.

Persons in charge at the appropriate positions/levels make these decisions for us on our behalf. They are in positions of great strain and responsibility. It is easier to sit on the sidelines and be critical of them than to perform in their roles isn't it?

Nontheless, they should have a level of scrutiny that keep the big picture in mind, the protection of our citizens and not willy-nilly torture at the drop of a hat.

You also don't recognize the nature of our enemies both in the eyes of "civilized" warfare nor their "legal" status amoungst nations and international institutions. They have no status and they "don't play fair" nor by the established rules...But they do recognize power and might.

A "torture lover"? No, just exercising my First Amendment right...rights are things our enemies don't care much about. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 5, 2008 9:39 AM:

" Tell it to the hundred PEOPLE that have been tortured to death by this government. Our ‘judicial’ system has been corrupted to the point the military jags are breaking ranks because POLITICS has tainted these ’tribunals’ and the sheeple spread the propaganda.
The United States is listed as a ‘torture state’, we have ‘black prison’ sites that have been set up to circumvent our ‘due process’ and the domestic defenders are complicit in it. Oversight hearings ARE looking into this international embarrassment.
What? No scripture to defend ‘torture’? from you ‘good’ Christians?
Watch in November and see who our ‘informed electorate’ are tired of !
You lay with ‘neo-cowards’ you smell of ‘neo-cowards’! "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 5, 2008 3:18 PM:

" Duane Andre,

How would YOU fix our 'black prisons,' as you call them?

How would YOU protect the United States of America? Would you even want to?

Do you have any workable solutions in there, Duane? Obama will fix it in November, right? He the Man?

I know socialism works for you, but how about the rest of us?

And not all of us choose to abandon America and move to a perpetually neutral country; whining from afar doesn't cut it here. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 5, 2008 3:52 PM:

" Thanks Dandre. I am sorry that my whatever comment appeared after your comment, because it wasn't meant for you. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 5, 2008 6:58 PM:

" You are good at putting YOUR words into other peoples’ mouths. Stick to the topic, Alejandro.
Americans don’t have ‘black prisons’ terrorists do and your ilk has turned us into them. So, the Kings Co expert is smarter than the Nuremberg interrogators and the scores of other experts that say torture does not work.
And by your logic, John McBush is the war criminal he confessed to be, under torture and it was justified?
A nazi calling someone a socialist is kind of funny!
This ‘war’ is our fundamentalist wackos against their fundamentalist wackos! And you are all for it!
Now maybe we are seeing the part of America Rev Wright was cursing. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 5, 2008 7:25 PM:

" Duane Dandre once again pshycho babble and uncontested name calling as a rebuttal to a serious problem. Your inability to offer solutions, corrections or even inferences into that vast plethra of vision you possess astounds us all. You and Scott are probably two of the absolute best blame game players in the blogs of the world. You both act as Monday night quarterbacks with nothing to offer but disdain for the country you claim to love so deeply. The information obtained through this torture has saved American lives and prevented another occurence like 9/11, to my knowledge hasn't killed anyone. I don't know where you got your count of 100? I don't recall reading that in the above article, so you must have made up another Dandre Statistic from the recesses of your library of torture contained between your ears. But whatever the source I am sure you are willing to rant and claim it as truth by my almighty God as usual. Oh that's right you had twelve years of God forced at you, you are disinterested now. All I can say is whatever is being done is working. "

Wake up wrote on Jun 5, 2008 10:20 PM:

" We live in a "free" country, but freedom is not free. If you are reading this message thank a Veteran. Many of the most low life people in the world want to do us harm and they are only disappointed when they can't kill us or our children. We have government agencies and the military in place to protect us so let them protect us. If lives are at risk and a terrorist will not cooperate I say use whatever is necessary to save the lives of innocent people. I doubt the people being tortured are innocent and they are definitely not worth the life of one child of any country. Live by he sword and die by the sword, these people preach hate and initiate violence so that is what they deserve in return. If they don't want us to torturing them, the shouldn't be torturing us through their hate and attacks. Scott, take the high road if you want, I take the survival road. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 6, 2008 9:45 AM:

" Once again, I wil try and throw this out there not aiming at anyone in particular and see if it passes censorship.

The Democratic Congress has failed to do anyting, and the Senate has failed to pass any bills and the Democratic Presidential Candidates Borak Obama and Hillary Clinton have failed to address the issue of torture publicly? So how is this all of a sudden George Bush's problem all alone?

Is the Congress not formed and made up of the majority of Democrats and yet they can't do anything, some lame duck President we have, he stops the Democratic Congress dead on it's feet.

If these weren't proven effective methods to gain information Hillary and Borak would be chiming the networks with propoganda against torture and using it as their campaign slogan. But they are not for one very important reason, because by using it we have saved American lives, I know this upsets a few of you, but it has a proven track record.

You don't get information from a terrorist, by saying Mr. Terrorist pretty please tell us your next plot to kill us? Hard cold fact! "

Dandre wrote on Jun 6, 2008 11:04 AM:

" Watchfredallfortheitroops, did I get all the babble sources correct! I’ve got solutions for you. Shut down these ILLEGAL prisons and QUIT torturing people.
This Country has been safe for 222years by being the Champion of Human Rights and the actions of this administration have surrendered that mantle.
Human Rights isn’t relative! The more barbaric your enemies become isn’t justification for ‘surrendering’ your position as an American! 100% distinguishable from the savageries we claim to detest. Instead, we have been tarnished with the policies of the world’s despots for the political gains of the republican party! This administration has politicized everything.,,including ‘torture’!
The United States kidnapped and tortured a 13 year old Canadian Citizen for 3 years before releasing him without charge. Italy taking action against our ‘torture policies’, Rummy almost arrested on international war crime charges….If you think this is going away, think again! "

Dandre wrote on Jun 6, 2008 11:09 AM:

" 100 dead is a conservative estimate but we’ll never know because the ‘gestapo’ has their privacy to consider!
The ‘psycho babble’ that you have been swallowing for this last 8 years has corrupted our moral standing to the point of disgust!
There are Iraqi mothers who cry with the hate of Osama Bin Laden, screaming that president bush is a terrorist because their family was ‘collateral’ damage in your war on ‘terror’, because this administration has taken the post 9/11 global support that erupted and turned it into a political ‘cesspool’! We have created more terrorists than we have killed with this ‘meathead’ foreign policy and thank God, its coming to an end!
We the People are sick and tired of your ‘bull in the china shop’ politics! ‘Staesmanship’ is something the right wing can’t even spell but this Country has needed for a long time….
Ronald Reagan was the tip of the fuse to the amoral stink bomb that is exploding in this Country and it’s the stench of death that the republican party will have a hard time getting rid of! "

Dandre wrote on Jun 6, 2008 12:12 PM:

" Here’s a 3 ½ minute exert from Philippe Sands, an international lawyer and a professor of law at University College London. He has been involved in many leading international cases, including the World Court trial of Slobodan Milosevic and the treatment of British detainees at Guantanamo Bay. He lives in London, England.
He nails it

http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/38514-torturers-in-chief "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 6, 2008 2:31 PM:

" Watchdog,

While others here continue shuckin' and jivin' while celebrating America's ‘shame,' you and I remember today in history: 6 June 1944, Allied Invasion of Europe in Normandy.

One of our biggest sacrifices to fight tyranny and preserve world peace. My Dad was a pilot of a B-24 Liberator and I could only imagine what he was going through with thousands of other Americans. No shame here, just pride.

OK, another slice of history, a bit more on topic:

14 February 1979, U.S. Ambassador Adolph Dubs kidnaped and killed.

Under Democrat President Jimmy Carter. Yep, we were fed up with Republicans then, too.

Then Three Mile Island spews radioactivity out its top. And Iran takes our Embassy in Tehran with 49 hostages. Also in 1979, our President who promised ‘change' signed the first significant science and cultural exchange agreements with China, giving away U.S. science and technology (some stolen later on).

And in June 1979, a central defining piece of American spirit died: John Wayne. We all died a little bit then, didn't we?

Why repeat the FAILED liberal progressive mantra: ‘do nothing, give everything away, be nice no matter what?' "

Dandre wrote on Jun 6, 2008 3:53 PM:

" 'Celebrating America's shame' ?.....
The only people in this country ‘celebrating’ this debacle are the contractors and the religious parasites coming out of Pat Robertson U who have emptied our treasuries and maxed out our credit cards….fiscally consevative?
And let me guess 3 ½ minutes of information was toooo much for ya’!
Jimmy Carter installed solar panels on top of the whitehouse with a pledge of getting off oil and ronnie tore them down and trashed Carter’s energy policy, ‘what’ early signs of Alsheimers?
And are you referring to the October Surprise, the prelude to the Iran/Contra scandal involving cocaine sales and arms trading for hostages, to the IRANIAN and So American terrorists, you really want to go there….and John Wayne was a coward he PLAYED a war hero, Audy Murphy was the war hero and he was a jerk too!!!!! Finally the root of the problem!! Idol worship.... "

Jarred wrote on Jun 6, 2008 5:59 PM:

" I'm sorry but as a citizen of the United States, I want my country to be held to the highest standard imaginable. How can we expect other countries to respect us when we treat others as if they mean nothing? The second that we torture someone, we lose our honor of being called patriotic Americans and you are in effect giving any country permission to torture your own citizens. Sorry, but if the only way to prevent an attack from happening is to torture "information" out of a person, the problem isn't the terrorist, it's the reason why the terrorist dislikes you in the first place (un-American treatment of other people) "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 6, 2008 6:42 PM:

" Duane Andre,

You are really a proud American, aren't you?

Your right to dissent has somehow managed to 'dis' all of us who live in this fine country.

Yep, your man Obama will fix things like Jimmy Carter did.

And once again it will take a great conservative to return to us our pride and prosperity.

Keep the Kool Aid handy, Duane. You will need it. "

Lets get real here wrote on Jun 6, 2008 11:09 PM:

" Do you pro-terrorist, anti-american, tree huggin people think that death is better than some temporary torture. I'll type slow so I don't lose you here, Carter caused deaths in Iran, Clinton actually tried to kill Osama and missed killing others, probably provoking the 9/11 attack, do you endorce these actions???? Is outright murder better than a little torture? Would you rather be tortured for a little bit or simply blown up? Death is worse than torture, if you are going to complain about something complain about that. These terrorists are lucky they ended in Cuba on our luxury base and Bush is a big softy. A better President would have kept all these low lifes in jails in outside countries or even in Iraq and had 3rd party individuals extract the information. I'm also tired of all the surgical military strikes. A tough President would have leveled most of Iraq. Bush has tried to balance lives, property, and ethics as best as anyone could. At least he spent 8 years protecting our country instead of sexually harassing anything that moved in the White House. Reagan ruled! "

The Oracle says... wrote on Jun 6, 2008 11:22 PM:

" ...More drivel from the hate America first crowd. They are just going to LOVE Obama.....As soon as they start with this crap, I just tune it out...All I hear is Charlie Brown talk...Waa waa waa waaaa. I could care less if they are in a "black prison" or a pink one for that matter. If it saves ONE American life, then I dont care. Win at all costs...Repeat..Win at all costs. Their is no second place in war "

Dandre wrote on Jun 7, 2008 1:02 AM:

" I ‘dis’ the perpetraitors of this torture policy
I ‘dis’ an administration that made lapel pins the measure of ‘patriotism’ while veterans suffer.
I dis’ war profiteering
I dis’ the state department's immunity to Blackwater for the slaughter of 17 including women and children
and I dis’ all the bigots, including some of my relatives, who from just your name, Alejandro, would think you weren’t smart enough to vote.
This is the greatest country in the History of the world, born of immigrants trying to escape CONSERVATIVE authoritarian governments, monarchies. We were born as a ‘Liberal Experiment’, reflected in the 3 most famous words in the Constitution, WE THE PEOPLE!
The rest of that line isn’t too bad either…
’We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union’
Not much in there Edmund Burke would like.
I am as proud as I can be to have experienced the ‘hope’ of John F Kennedy and to see the look in the eye of a man capable of lifting up this Country to the level of greatness portrayed in those Audey Murphey ‘gung-ho’ movies.
Instead 3 assassinations and the conservative movement survives……until now! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 7, 2008 6:23 AM:

" Alejandro,

It amazes me how some people have absolutely nothing in this country that is untouchable and up for disdain, trashing by them. John Wayne was not a coward and was a huge humanitarian who also happened to be a great Republican.

Audy Murphy, this man is the most decorated hero of WWII in the European Theatre. One of those medals was the Congregetional Medal of Honor, he went on to become a movie star and the movie To Hell and Back was about his own life.

If these were men of color they would be celebrated throughout the land and a national holiday would be named for each of them. But since they are white they are just reveered by every other mothers son in the US of A.

Yes Alejandro, citizens who are anti everything are also anti celebration of victory and acomplishment, for never having any in their own life, they have nothing to measure it by.

Some of us were not fortunate enough to recognize true hero's like your dad who served in Europe and my dad who served in the South Pacific. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 7, 2008 6:32 AM:

" Alejandro,

My Dad was given one clip, eight rounds to control hundreds of enemy prisoners of war. Show me a man with the courage to do that today? They'd want several more guards and many more weapons to even attempt it.

He was challanged by them one night and another Sailor driving a forklift moving material, pulled into the middle of the crowd and stopped there planned attack on my dad.

This war on terror is the first war since that time when multi forces are being used for land based positions. That is why you have Sailors and Air Force Airman on the ground in Iraq filling Army and Marine Corps positions. Just like in WWII there aren't enough men to go around on the ground. But they are still managing to get the job done. Just like their great grandfathers in WWII did.

Whoever, said tradition was dead was listening to the wrong blogger. I have a Great Nephew filling one of those positions right now and I couldn't be prouder of him. His brother returned last year from his year in Iraq. "

JFK a conservative wrote on Jun 7, 2008 12:37 PM:

" Take the time to read a little bit of history and one could make a strong argument that JFK was at least middle of the road in politics and possibly even a moderate conservative. If he was alive today I feel he would represent Republican views more than Democrat. He definitely was not a member of our vast right wing comspiracy group, but I don't think he was a liberal, or endorced drug use, or illegal immigration, and he didn't back down in almost sparking World War 3 with Russia and Cuba to protect our country. Carter would have helped them to unload their missles in Cuba and Obama would only ponder why they wanted to put them there. "

Oh My wrote on Jun 7, 2008 10:44 PM:

" Oh Waaaaa, All ya lefties need to mind your business as well as your manners. Because it's you doing the whining, no one cares. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 8, 2008 9:32 AM:

" That great American who brought us Vietnam in the first place Dandre. JFK, was the first President to send american souls into Vietnam, they were called "Military Advisors" that scenario didn't last long. Before you know it we were full on fighting the war, where many people of all colors white, brown, black were all making the ultimate sacrifice as if it were a calling.

Now if you are gonna give history lessons you have to give all the history not just what you pick and choose.

Then came LBJ who sacrificed more and more people, we complain today because there is 170,000 troops in Iraq. At the highest levels in Vietnam there were 500,000 troops, look at the size of Vietnam and Iraq and get back to me.

A smart President would have withdrawn the
Military Advisors and gave a three day warning to another Hiroshima if the war wasn't ended, but that didn't happen. Any single aircraft carrier in the pacific fleet could have obliterated that country, saving american lives in the process.

JFK was a great humanitarian and did some pretty good stuff. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 8, 2008 9:42 AM:

" Continued - but JFK nor any other President for this great land could walk on water like a lot of people would like to make you believe.

The funny thing is we look at the character of Presidents today and we want them to be held to a higher level of integrity, God and Country. When many of the beginning forefathers to this country who were elected Presidents were slave runners and used those slaves to plant and harvest crops on their plantations. Which in those days was an accepted practice.

Now we want to hold a President's feet to the fire over torture of our enemies and ridicule him for moving prisoners to Cuba for a Military Tribunal. How many of those people killed on 9/11 would have liked a shot at a trial? Just to have the opportunity to profess their innocence. My bet is all 3,000 +. Do you think court was held aboard those attacking airliners for those passengers on board?

On another blog a comment was made all is fair in Love and War, I need to add except for President Bush. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 8, 2008 9:51 AM:

" Then there was the Peanut Farmer who took the high road and tried peaceful solutions. Did anyone notice the cool reception he received in Isreal recently? He goes and meets with the suicide bombers in Lebanon and we have to make a trip on the 60th anniversary of Isreal to reassure the leaders of Isreal, we will back their play. Then many have the audacity to question why we don't mediate with terrorists? Because it sends the wrong signal to our allies and friends in the world that is why. The terrorist love the propaganda opportunities such a meeting gives them and know very well how to use it to their best benefit.

So the peanut farmer needs to grow peanuts and keep building houses but stay out of politics and let the setting President call the shots.

By the way for those confused Democrats it wasn't JFK who got the wall in Berlin torn down, that would be Ronald Reagan. An awesome President, and another who didn't get credit he was due was Richard Nixon. He did more for the military than any President before him in benefits and pay. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 8, 2008 1:20 PM:

" And ‘W’ would have MADE UP the missles and then attacked IRAQ!
Marion Morrison, better known as John Wayne 'didn't serve' anywhere but in the 'movies'. In 1944, Wayne received a 2-A classification, "deferred in support of national . . . interest." He didn’t want to give up his career! A month later the Selective Service decided to revoke many previous deferments and reclassified him 1-A. But Wayne's studio appealed and got his 2-A status reinstated until after the war ended.
People who knew Wayne say he felt bad about not having served. (During the war he'd gotten into a few fights with servicemen who wondered why he wasn't in uniform.) Some think his guilty conscience was one reason he became such a superpatriot later. The fact remains that the man who came to symbolize American patriotism and pride had a chance to do more than just act the part, and he let it pass.
Then he supported the Viet Nam war but used his 'celebrity' to keep his son out Viet Nam.
A friend of mine used to work on his 'yacht', the 'Golden Goose' in Southern CA and Marion Morrison was an arrogant jerk! "

Dandre wrote on Jun 8, 2008 1:23 PM:

" Idol worship becomes you. whatever your name is today... And REAL HEROES, JFK, RFK and Martin L King were Progressives and all the limbaugh, coulter revisionist history you ditto heads mixed with your kool aid this morning can't change that! Those ‘pointy hats’ and ‘swastikas’ are on the conservative side of this argument, where they belong!
The Conservative Movement’s involvement may never see the light of day but the assassination of 3 Liberal Heroes in the same decade was no coincidence.
The ‘right wing’ hatred for the Kennedy family has been no secret. The ‘ditto head’ talking point that JFK would be a conservative today is absurd! The conservative hatred for the Kennedys hasn’t gone away, listen to the garbage coming out of the right about Ted Kennedy's brain tumor.
Change, Progress, Evolution, Awakening, Leadership, Humanity: all words that swell the pride this Country enjoys through the efforts and patience of its ‘Progressives’.
The mantle of Human Rights that has been discarded by the ‘Charlie Brown’ quoting ‘dumbed down’ republican electorate, is still being ‘claimed by this Country’s ‘Progressives’ and will be Re-instated after this election! "

Dandre wrote on Jun 8, 2008 1:24 PM:

" The party of Watergate, Iran/Contra, war profiteering, torture, lying us into war, Plame-gate, infecting our Soldiers with malaria and other diseases with tainted water in Iraq, Walter Reed-gate, denying benefits to worthy Veterans-gate, losing 17 semi-truck loads of hundred dollar bills in Iraq, blackwater massacre-gate, abu garib, guantanimo, black prisons, Mark Foley-gate, Larry Craig-gate, David Vitter-gate, Jack Abramoff’s 350 visits to the White House-gate, Tom Delay-gate, DC madam-gate, Don Siegleman-gate, hatch act violations, recount, Katrina, pentagon propaganda-gate, Enron-gate, the president is a dry drunk-gate, Scott McClennon-gate, etc., etc., etc., etc…………………………………………………….
When I discipline my child’s ‘bad behavior’ I am expressing the IRON CLAD love that I have for the human being in my charge!
The parent of the spoiled, shin-kicking, out of control ‘lil bush, is ‘guilty’ of ‘child abuse’!
To BLINDLY sit by while war crimes are being committed by the leaders you endorsed is being the lazy citizens that elitists like the bush administration thrives on and it borders on treason.
Most WWII Vets would hate the thought of the USA committing the same tortures that we executed Japanese soldiers for…..and "

Dandre wrote on Jun 8, 2008 1:27 PM:

" JFK was a Liberal Progressive, and I quote:



Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. John F. Kennedy

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. …. War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.
John F. Kennedy, Speech to UN General Assembly, Sept. 25, 1961
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. John F. Kennedy
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
John F. Kennedy
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.
John F. Kennedy, inaugural address, January 20, 1961 "

Dandre wrote on Jun 8, 2008 1:29 PM:

" The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.
John F. Kennedy, speech at Vanderbilt University, May 18, 1963
Let the word go forth from this time and place. . .to friend and foe alike. . . that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans. . . born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage. . .and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today. . .at home and around the world.
John F. Kennedy, inaugural address, January 20, 1961
Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths, and encourage the arts and commerce. Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah. . .to "undo the heavy burdens. . . let the oppressed go free."
John F. Kennedy, inaugural address, January 20, 1961
Let us welcome controversial books and controversial authors. John F. Kennedy "

Dandre wrote on Jun 8, 2008 1:30 PM:

" Let us think of education as the means of developing our greatest abilities, because in each of us there is a private hope and dream which, fulfilled, can be translated into benefit for everyone and greater strength for our nation. John F. Kennedy
We have the power to make this the best generation of mankind in the history of the world - or to make it the last. John F. Kennedy
Our progress as a nation can be no swifter than our progress in education. The human mind is our fundamental resource. John F. Kennedy
Unconditional war can no longer lead to unconditional victory. John F. Kennedy
If we are strong, our strength will speak for itself. If we are weak, words will be of no help. John F. Kennedy

Efforts and courage are not enough without purpose and direction. John F. Kennedy

GOD BLESS AMERICA and HER REAL HEROES! "

Dandre wrote on Jun 8, 2008 3:11 PM:

" When do you guys get tired of ‘being at war’ with every body that doesn’t agree with you?
If we don’t agree with ‘torturing’ people, we are ‘pro-terrorist’. If we believe, like Ben Franklin, that those who would give up ‘freedom’ for the sake of security deserves neither, we are ‘un-american’,
If we agree with Ronald Reagan, who in one of his RARE moments of intelligence, said, ‘The United States does not start fights. We will never be an aggressor.’, we are called ‘weak’
The detractors of this war policy were right and daily more evidence comes out to support that fact.
I HATE this administration’s POLICIES and I think there are individuals in the administration deserving of prosecution.
The gang’ o’neo-cons’ that has been the ‘cancer cell’ in this destruction is the root to this problem and should be eradicated.
The CHANGE will do us good. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 8, 2008 5:52 PM:

" To Dandre - as long as we are providing a reading marathon for folks let's get some good old republican quotes in here as well:

How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. Ronald Reagan

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and grandchildren what it was once like in the United States where men were free. Ronald Reagan

People don't start wars governments do.
Ronald Reagan

To sit back hoping that someday, someway, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last-but eat you he will. Ronald Reagan

No arsenal...... is so formidable as the will and moral courage of the free men and women
RR.
Continued On - - - - "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 8, 2008 6:51 PM:

" The United States is the only country with a known birthday -James G. Blaine

America is a nation with many flaws, but hopes so vast that only the cowardly would refuse to acknowledge them - James T. Farrell


America did not invent human rights. In a very real sense rights invented America. - Jimmy Carter

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. - Abraham Lincoln

A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won't cross the street to vote in a national election. - Bill Vaughan

Only Americans can hurt America. - Dwight David Eisenhower.

Some Americans need hyphens in their names, because only part of them has come over; but when the whole man has come over, heart and thought and all, the hyphen drops of its own weight out of his name. - Woodrow Wilson

Sometimes people call me an idealist, Well, that is the way I know I am an American. America is the only idealistic nation in the world. - Woodrow Wilson "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 8, 2008 7:06 PM:

" Dandre' I have forwarded to Jackie and I hope she prints the letter I received from one of my former shipmates. that the editor refused to print in a local paper, in another community. I hope Jackie not only prints it, but make it a part of a blog to be discussed. It deals with Immigration while off topic I think it says a lot about America and where she is today and what we need to do to get her back on track.

I may not agree with your thinking process but I do respect it and think you have every right to express yourself as you choose. I only ask for the same respect in return.

We could go on posting quotations from other people until the cows come home and it wouldn't resolve the problems of the world.

You are convinced that those solutions rest with a man who refuses to say the pledge of allegiance to our country nor place his hand over his heart when the National Anthem is played. You are comfortable with that choice then so be it, I however do not place trust in Obama. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 8, 2008 7:27 PM:

" Hey Watchdog:

Duane Andre praises all Democratic liberal Presidents and scoffs at all things Republican.

I wonder what he thinks about Republican President Abraham Lincoln who freed the slaves?

Was he not a brave and courageous conservative?

Or was he too wrong because he belonged to a political party that Duane Andre can't abide by up in his ivory tower? "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 8, 2008 7:37 PM:

" And Watchdog:

Duane Andre forgets his hero JFK when he said:

"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

That sounds so very conservative and right on the mark.

People need to contribute to the United States and be active citizens in good standing, not merely suck up entitlements that the liberals give away to everyone and anyone they see fit.

Socialism at it's finest! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 8, 2008 10:04 PM:

" Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.
Plato

The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cnnot learn, unlearn and relearn. Alvin Toffler

Why does the Air Force need expensive new bombers? Have the people we've been bombing over the years been complaining? George Wallace

If you want to make enemies, try to change something. Woodrow Wilson

Too bad all the people who know how to run this country are busy running taxicabs or cutting hair.
George Burns

It is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them.
Mark Twain

The secret to life is honesty and fair dealing, If you can fake that, you've got it made.
Groucho Marx

Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore, Dream. Mark Twain "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 9, 2008 1:32 AM:

" "A smart President would have withdrawn the
Military Advisors and gave a three day warning to another Hiroshima if the war wasn't ended, but that didn't happen. Any single aircraft carrier in the pacific fleet could have obliterated that country, saving american lives in the process."

Ah yes, the old "we-should-have-nuked-them" argument. This is the argument of a foolish simpleton at best. At worst it represents the thoughts of someone who does not value the life of human beings and would rather propagate death and destruction on a massive scale.

Have you forgotten that by the end of the Vietnam War at least five nations had nuclear capabilities? The USA, the USSR, the UK, France, and China.

If we had dropped "another Hiroshima", as you call it, over the fields and villages of Vietnam, do you not think that a few of those nuclear missles would have been headed in our direction within minutes? And this would have saved American lives how? Please elaborate and show us the twisted ways of your logic. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 9, 2008 1:45 AM:

" The torture debate really does bring out the best in people. I find it interesting to see just at what stages many of the participants here find themselves according to Kohlberg's six stages of moral development. It is sad to see adults still stuck at the Pre-Conventional levels. Looking at the arguments here from the perspective of Kant's Categorical Imperative also reveals a great deal. "Act only according tto that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become universal law." All of the torture proponents, I assume, since they are for the practice of torture, will not fuss and fidget when they find themselves on the receiving end of the torture power structure. Torture, in their eyes is universally acceptable, so I guess they should be prepared not only to give, but to take as well. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 9, 2008 2:09 AM:

" Hey Torture Lovers, some more uplifting news for your cause was revealed today. US interrogators of GITMO detainees were instructed to destroy evidence that might have exposed illegal acts of torture. Only in Bush's America are Lady Justice's scales one-sidedly imbalanced and her blindfold nothing more than transparent gauze. Way to trample the very principles and ideals that define (or at least used to define) who we are as Americans. "

MV wrote on Jun 9, 2008 9:27 AM:

" Imagine a world full liberals , then imagine a world full of losers because that’s what you would have. After a liberal gets slapped enough about bitching at our war and Soldiers , or our current administration . They try to get out of it by saying I still support our troops. We have a military machine, it starts with the Soldier in the field all the way up to the Chief in Command. Don’t say you hate one and support the other, all that does in confuse the poor soldier. To add insult to the situation they start defending the prisoners that had involvement with 9/11 oh and not to mention that our government created this 9/11. Man these guys are smart. They probably just as well as Obama they change everything. I heard a rumor the other day that Obama was going to make all the uphill roads into downhill roads. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 9, 2008 9:49 AM:

" ‘Liberal losers’ ….like Jesus Christ, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, JFK, FDR, RFK, and all of us Veterans who don’t support this war or torture.
Conservative morons…..MV, Hitler, Moussollini, Saddam Hussein, Al Queda, Hamas, bushbabiesfortorture, Faux News, the bush family, reagan-oholics,
I'll stay on my side of the aisle,thanks.
'lockstep=nazi'.....'dissent=American'
Soldiers are smart enough to understand what’s going on, it’s morons that suck up rumors. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 9, 2008 10:52 AM:

" Scott Tucker - I am so glad when you copy and paste my statements then they are there twice for people to see.

I have news for you, Russia and China have always and continue to be less powerful in a Nuclear confrontation than we are capable of dishing out. It would be suicide for them to intercept a missile attack and retaliate, that is and has been the case every since Kruchev blinked. When JFK called their bluff their hand was visible to the world, you have no idea of the importance of that blockade. When Ronald Reagan told Gorbie to tear down that wall in Berlin, it wasn't a request, it was an order.
The Russian's have taunted us for years but know when to back off, and behave and there is no doubt in my mind that China doesn't want to send it's multi billion population to hell with fire and brimstone like never witnessed before. That's why they call it a deterrant but if you have to use it, you use it. My statement was to withdraw all our troops and then drop the bomb. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 9, 2008 11:23 AM:

" Sooooo, We should have nuked Viet Nam in order to SAVE Viet Nam?.....WOW!!!
Get a t-shirt made and hand them out to all that are lined up with you......PLEASE!
We'll use FISA later...... "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 9, 2008 11:49 AM:

" "I am so glad when you copy and paste my statements then they are there twice for people to see" how logically unsound and asinine they are.

Watchdog, have you ever heard of Mutually Assured Destruction? It does not matter which side had a bigger stockpile (Soviet stockpiles, especially during the Reagan years, even outnumbered US stockpiles), because the absurd amount of missiles, warheads, and nuclear weapons possessed by both sides virtually assured that no side could ever win a nuclear confrontation.

Your statement about withdrawing all of our troops and then dropping the bomb is ridiculous. First, any use of the bomb after its original use during WWII would have been morally indefensible (but I should remind myself that human life is not valuable to you, unless, of course, it is American life). Secondly, withdrawing the troops does not mean that American lives would have been out of danger. You see, our actions very well would have provoked the Soviets to retaliate, and you, along with millions of other Americans and non-Americans, would most likely have been killed.

Your statement, from whatever angle you want to look at it, was downright ludicrous. "

The Oracle says.. wrote on Jun 9, 2008 12:43 PM:

" ...What "Illegal" acts of torture do you speak of Scott? Waterboarding is not illegal Scotty boy, probably much to your dismay. It causes no physical harm, but simply triggers a psychological response that it very unpleasant. However, I will say it again and again...If it saves one American life, you can lop of their heads for all I care. Their is no second place in war..either you win or lose. Their are no Marques of Queensberry rules on the battlefield when rounds are snapping by your head. But as I remember Scott, you said that you would not even defend your own family members, so I guess that pretty well sums it up, doesn't it. A man that will not protect himself or his loved one's, depending on others to do the task, (and sometimes pay the ultimate price) then complain about how the protection is provided...Well thats just pathetic. But alas, thats the liberal way....Can you say Obama, Obama, Obama....Chant it like a mantra for the libs.... "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 9, 2008 2:39 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - I can always count on you to name call and attack. You don't believe in war but your first avenue of response is in name calling and voicing your opinionated liberal hogwash. The amazing thing is it always clears the moderator and my responses to you don't! You sure it is cheese you are into and not the bubbly or wine, you sound half smashed in some of your comments. Liberal way to respond to tough questions.
The commies would have backed down in Vietnam just like they backed down in Cuba scholar boy. The intention is all it would have took to end that war with a VICTORY for the United States but no one sense WWII and JFK has had the huevos to test the theory. You think JFK didn't sweat bullets until Kruchev caved in? Then you don't know much about the man, it was Bobby Kennedy who advised him to call the bluff. Besides he didn't have much left to lose politically after the Bay of Pigs, remember that failed assualt. Never here a Democrat mention that little fiasco & slaughter Cubans. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 9, 2008 2:50 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - the best shot Russia ever had at us was with the missiles in Cuba, what stopped them is we had missiles in Turkey aimed right at them, not to mention Submarines, Aircraft Carriers with Nuclear war heads and a Bomber Squadron or two of constantly flying B-52's with Nuclear Warheads on board. For years squadrons flew on the Alaskan border just waiting for the call to launch an attack. Then you had hundreds of Balistic Missiles underground and in mountains throughout the United States and with our allies that were aimed diretly at the Kremlin. Plus various other strategic points in Russia. That was before talk of "Star Wars Defense Program" was ever revealed to the public. Plus there is much more classified information that hasn't been released to the news media that is out of bounds on this blog that would blow your teaching mind. Did you ever see the movie Wind Talkers, well the indians are not the only military members to be assigned marines as security measures. Let's suffice it to say secrets won't be tortured out of them. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 9, 2008 3:03 PM:

" To Oracle - Brother you said a mouthfull and I concur one hundred and fifty percent. I've also stated any mother's son who won't take up arms in the defense of this country and their family is the lowest scum sucking bottom feeder there is in the Aquarium called life.
They want other people to replace them so they can be captured, tortured, beheaded, shot they just don't want the details and to know it is going on and God forbid should we retaliate and receive pertinent information regarding our enemies.
The liberals could learn a lot from the following quote:

Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from wordy evidence of the fact.
by George Elliot

Another:
Wise men talk becase they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.

Those liberal wannbe's et al all love quotes so much let them chew on those awhile.

I guess if you never plan on becoming part of the defense plan you don't bother studying it or how it works. You just count on others to supply it for you, and move about your foreign country. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 9, 2008 4:14 PM:

" YOOO! Watchtroopdogfredit...What does George W Bush call a nazi…….grandpa and do you know what CIA agent sold out this country in the Bay of Pigs fiasco....Geo Bush sr and while your defending torture this Country is getting ‘Enron-ed’ again and waterboarding is a war crime......

On Monday September 27, 1943, British and Australian commandos raided Singapore harbour, then occupied by the Japanese and blew up a number of ships.

Japanese intelligence, including the kempeitai, the secret police, had no idea how the ships were attacked.

A few days after the attack what the later trial called “informers of extremely doubtful character” approached the kempeitai in Johore (on the mainland across from Singapore) and told them that ships had been sunk by British soldiers in Johore who had contacts with civilian internees in Changi Jail. The informers told the kempeitai that the internees had a secret transmitter with which they used to contact the British army. The Johore kempeitai passed the information to their counterparts in Singapore.

The man then in charge of the kempeitai in Singapore, Major Haruzo Sumida, received orders for what was called “Number One Work”—to obtain actionable intelligence and crush any opposition. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 9, 2008 4:16 PM:

" Over the next few weeks, 57 European and Eurasian civilians held in Changi were arrested in the kempetai’s "Number One Work." A number of local Chinese were also arrested. All were taken to three different locations in the city and tortured.

Not one of the internees had anything to do with the attack. Although there were secret receiving radios in the jail, there were no two–way radios.

One man was executed. A second after horrific torture, attempted suicide was refused medical treatment and died. Another man died in his cell, the others were returned to the Changi Camp hospital where 13 died as a result of starvation, beating and torture.

Within days of liberation, on Monday September 3, 1945, the surviving civilian internees in Singapore, appointed a "commission of inquiry: into what happened to the former inmates at the hands of the kempeitai. This is how the commission described “the water treatment”

Cyril Wild’s investigation torture in Singapore showed that similar water torture was a favourite tactic of the kempeitai:

Wild questioned one of the those accused in the case, Sgt. Major Masuo Makizono. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 9, 2008 4:17 PM:

" To Makizono, the most important aim was to discover how and what information was being passed from the civilian internees to the British guerrilla forces.

Turning to the beating and torture, Wild asked: “Why were these cruelties practiced?”

“None of them would say where the transmitter was,” Makizono said. “No information could be gotten from them about the location of British forces.”

“Did you ever use the water treatment?” Wild asked.

Makizono described how suspects were tied up and laid on the ground. A kempeitai would force open then the prisoners’ mouth, while another poured a bucket of water down the throat.

The case was not just a war crime. It is a lesson in intelligence failure. The torture and imprisonment of dozens of innocent civilians and the inhuman treatment was used because the kempeitai could not conceive that regular force commandos, today’s equivalent of Special Forces, could attack Singapore. So they focused on civilians, civilians who were already imprisoned, civilians who were resisting their captors—as all prisoners do—but civilians who were not saboteurs or terrorists. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 9, 2008 4:19 PM:

" The man who authorized those techniques at the Singapore YMCA, Lt. Col. Sumida, was sentenced to hang. Sumida, during the trial said, “I felt the state of peace and order and this serious incident were related and that a thorough measure should be taken to prevent the recurrence of such serious incidents.”

Six other members of the kempeitai plus an interpreter were sentenced to hang. Three were sentenced to life, including one interpreter called “the fat American” (he was originally from California) One received 15 years, and one kempeitai and one interpreter eight.

It’s worth noting that the Tokyo tribunal listed that the “water treatment” used by the Japanese in four locations in the Philippines, which at that period was an American colony and under US jurisdiction and so in that case, Americans were victims of “inhuman treatment.”
If the Singapore and other cases throughout history are any guide, it is more likely that some innocent person or marginal suspect would do what torture most often does, make up a story to please the torturer and end the torment. All those civilians in the Singapore confessed to sabotage, sabotage, that in reality, they knew absolutely nothing about. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 9, 2008 4:47 PM:

" To Scott Tucker found a little quote just for you Scholar:

In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo de Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of deomocracy and peace, what did they produce? The cuckoo clock. by Orson Welles

In your vast military experience did you ever hear the phrase "WAR IS HELL". The incidents you described brought about that terminology.

In Rome we fed the Christians to the lions, now in Aftrica we feed the Lions to man.

Elephants are slaughtered, Whales and any other species you might want to mention does that mean we quit sailing the seas and going on saffari?

Mistakes are made every day in life. I can tell you right now 10,000 terrorist could have died being tortured for us to find out about 9/11 and if it saved those 3,000 souls it would have been worth it. The terrorist are guilty the civilians were not who parished in 9/11. If you can't see the difference, you never will! "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 9, 2008 4:53 PM:

" Duane Andre said:
"John Wayne was a coward he PLAYED a war hero, Audy Murphy was the war hero and he was a jerk too!!!!!"

Duane, Duane, Duane, look up the word "besmirch" in the dictionary, OK? The search your heart for any shred of human decency for your fellow Americans, will you?

Even your hero Obama would not stoop so low to namecall these American heros. Your friend on the yacht is just another disgruntled individual much like yourself. Sure, let's believe him! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 9, 2008 4:59 PM:

" I invite you liberals to take a ride to ground zero in New York call in all those parents, wives, husbands and children and inform them their loved ones died in vein. Look them in the eye and tell them what you're aspousing in print about 9/11 not worth the torture of these %^&*@#$% that attacked their loved one's on 9/11. Don't forget your american flag lapel pens and you damn well better take an American Flag.

I wish Jackie would run that video every day on the blog to remind you of what those sorry excuses for humanity did to this country and the victims on that day. Mass murder of not only the passengers and civilians in the buildings but of the Firemen, Policemen, Paramedics, who rushed into those flaming buildings with no thought of their own safety. Led to slaughter like turkey's before Thanksgiving. Then you want to cry about torture of those individuals who have sworn to do liike crimes to this country. Who has their moral compass stuck on stupid now, my liberal counter parts. You do, that's who!!!!!!!! "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 9, 2008 5:28 PM:

" @Scott Tucker

Educational sophisticate and elitist Scott Tucker basically alludes to this bright observation:
‘if we will not torture, then the enemy will not torture.'

Then he slyly imposes some philosophical collegiate personal observations that obscure the heart of the matter. Of course he thought we all would miss this beacon of intelligencia.

You, Scott, extoll Kant in your argument but you didn't know your new home country had a man who challenged and debunked Kant's reasoning: the Swiss philosopher Benjamin Constant.

A true man of humanity and morality would, and should, find more interesting the Stages of Faith Development by Fowler. The theory proposes a staged development of faith (or spiritual development) across the lifespan and is better at gauging our responses here. But that would bring religion into the mix so it is out, right?

But I seriously doubt, Scott, that the terrorists are giving one bit of thought to Kohlberg's six stages of moral development or Fowler or Kant when they start slowly sawing off an American's head.

But keep on protecting them, Scott. Very noble; very wise. "

said it all wrote on Jun 9, 2008 10:20 PM:

" I think you wore me out Dandre, and I like to read. I think we will need to agree to disagree on most things. Also, you hate the Bush family as much as I hate the Clintons. However, I truly respect JFK, RFK, King, even Malcolm X. True inspiring leaders who had their lives cut short. I am a right-wing Republican, but I respect true visionary type leaders who are genuine in their beliefs. Sadly, none of them lived to witness their dreams coming true, but please don't say Republicans or Conservatives endorced or support what happened to them. A few might, but not very many. My ultra religious and conservative Mother is still traumatized over the killings. Vietnam was a total waste of lives, too bad it was not prevented or ended sooner. Totally different than the Middle East issues of today. I think historians will come to view Nixon as a great person, and JFK and Reagan were simply the tops. I see them more related than not, and still view JFK as a conservative which does include supporting the Constitution and civil rights. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 10, 2008 12:03 AM:

" I never said that I would not defend my family. My family's saftey is of the greatest importance to me, that is why (and this is something that you torture lovers constantly fail to understand with those limited cognitive powers of yours) I do not condone torture. Because by allowing torture to be performed on others who have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my family, I have given up my and my family's right not to be tortured. It is you torture lovers who do not respect the safety and well-being of your families by condoning torture. It is those who do not respect human life who are the pathetic ones. As for "defining" what is and is not torture, I think Dandre did a pretty good job of exposing your repeated attempts at moving the goalposts. I guess, Sn-oracle, by your own admission that waterboarding is not torture, that you wouldn't mind a round or two of it yourself. Can you say no respect for self or others? Because that is the conservative mantra. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 10, 2008 11:19 AM:

" Watchdog, I have been to Ground Zero in NY twice (once in 2004 and then again in 2005) to pay my respects to those who lost their lives on that tragic and fateful day. Have you been, and if not, why not? "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 10, 2008 11:23 AM:

" Alejandro, I also seriously doubt that terrorists give any thought to Kohlberg's six stages of moral development or to Fowler or to Kant; however, it seems that I have caused you to consider their theories, and that is all I set out to do. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 10, 2008 11:56 AM:

" And Alejandro, since you want to bring religion into the torture mix, I thought I'd ask how you feel about the National Religious Campaign Against Torture (nrcat.org) and their efforts to inform people that torture is wrong. Shall I order a "torture is wrong" banner just for you and another one for your church? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 10, 2008 11:56 AM:

" Alejandro - did you not the lack of response from the scholar regarding Orson Welles comment on Switzerland. I guess one American has the history there right, named Orson Welles.

Scott Tucker - do you also side with your liberal mirror image regarding John Wayne the Duke, and Audy Murphy. Of course you two probably call them war mongers. By the By did you summon the relatives of all those at Ground Zero and aspouse your backward politics to them and tell them their loved one's died in vein. No I haven't been to ground zero yet, do to finances but that doesn't mean my prayers and heart have not ventured there. When I do go I will celebrate those brave first responders who unlike you and Dandre considered others before their own gluteness selves.

To Dandre' did you ever like this country? Have you ever liked anything, it isn't very apparent if you have. Chill, Will Rogers never met a man he didn't like. Oh I suppose he was indian so you don't want to hear from him either? "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 10, 2008 12:44 PM:

" Watchdog, I understand and respect your reasons for having not yet been able to visit Ground Zero. The ever-rising cost of transportation does make taking such trips difficult (Trust me, I know. Flying home to visit family every year isn't cheap).

However, just because I do not support the use of torture, does not mean that I not outraged at the terrorist attacks that took place on 9/11 in which those thousands of innocent individuals lost their lives. Those guilty should deservingly be caught and accordingly punished. And remember, I have been to Ground Zero to pay my respects to the victims and their familys two more times than you have. I could call you un-American for not having been there, but that is something that you would do.

I did not reply to your silly Switzerland comment, simply because it was irrelevant and childish, like many of your personal attacks towards me. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 10, 2008 2:28 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - sir, I needed no one to fight my battles during Vietnam, and I certainly do not need anyone to fight them now. If I ever attact you, you would know you wouldn't suppose about it. I don't as a rule attack anyone. I just gave you an example os what one man's opinion was of Switzerland, a highly regarded intillectual who was reveered by millions in this country. A spokesman for many cultures and an orator of his time. You can throw out insult after insult about your so called home land called America and I am suppose to accept it and get over it. But one dead scholarly (who brought one so realistic attack from outer space to radio land people believed it was real) individual made a quote years ago about your beloved Switzerland and you want to go Postal on me? Scott if you can't take a punch you should never throw one. That is the best advice I give you. Orson Welles said it; I didn't, however had I thought of it I'd probably have said it. An Actor! "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 10, 2008 2:49 PM:

" To Scott Tucker -irrelevant and childish. Well that is what many on here say about your willingness to stand up for this country. You state you will stand up for your family is that the immediate Switzerland family or does that include people here in America? If it includes americans you only need pick up a news paper and learn america is at war! Your unwillingness to accept my wants and wishes doesn't disturb me about you but you won't accept or support anyone's that entails exposing your own butt to harm. That kind of unselfish behavior insights many who ever put his/her own rear on the line and in harms way for this country. Other quotes that you should read.

The death of one man is tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic. by Josef Stalin

The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other poor *&()^%$ die for his.
George S. Patton

The victor will never be asked if he told the truth.
Adolph Hitler

In war there is no prize for the runner-up. General Omar Bradley "

Dandre wrote on Jun 10, 2008 2:59 PM:

" Said it all.. Sorry about the eyestrain! but information is sometimes painful, especially to the other ‘winter-patriots’ here.
You sound like an old school republican that has not sold out to this 'neo-con nightmare. The ‘Ottmeyer’ studied ‘lock-step’ conservative, as explained in the john Dean ‘Conservatives without Conscience’, lays out the dangers of these types of ‘ideologues’ that have been the footsoldiers to despots throughout history. The Teddy Roosevelts, Dwight D’s and even Richard Nixon would be appalled at what has been done in the name of the Country I love and cherish and conservatism.
I used the word 'hate' to emphasize the difference between 'policy' and 'people'. I don’t hate the sinners I hate the sin. But as a Veteran, to have my patriotism questioned by the incoherent rantings of a bunch of ‘dittoheads’ can be frustrating and disappointing to think that veterans who were involved with the mistake of Viet Nam would allow another generation to be ‘supported’ like the Vets, I know who have died of agent orange complications all the while being ‘cheated’ out of benefits by the likes of ‘5deferment cheney’.
God Bless America and OUR real Heroes! "

Dandre wrote on Jun 10, 2008 3:14 PM:

" ALE, ALE, ALE, I guarentee you I know more about the real Morris Duke wayne then you do about my 'disgruntled' friend. I saw the duke-sters jerkiness myself and yet You skoff at what I know and then I am supposed to accept your opinion of my experience as some kind of ‘all American fact’!
Get over yourself, I don’t have ‘to search my heart’ for the duke and if that’s whats in your heart…..
Again the ‘root’ of the problem! "

Dandre wrote on Jun 10, 2008 3:41 PM:

" Fred
To Oracle - Brother you said a mouthfull and I concur one hundred and fifty percent.

Read my follow up post and see that you are 150% wrong about the legality of ‘waterboarding’!and we know you are much smarter and more patriotic than those dumb prosecutors!
Show me the facts that I am wrong about the duke and audey’s personal lives and I will capitulate but I ain’t holding my breath. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 10, 2008 4:06 PM:

" Scott,

I leave it to you to uncover and expose a religious-affiliated ‘campaign' that is blatantly: leftist, socialistic, progressive, and vocal. It has only 18,000 endorsers worldwide (out of howmanybillion people?). Can you say spit in the ocean?

Scott, you might also want to join, celebrate, and support these fine organizations that follow your politics 100%: the "Progressive Christians Uniting" (liberal progressives in religion) and the "Jesus Radicals" (a Christian Anarchist resource group).

You ask what I think about religion and liberal progressive radical socialists? I believe you know what I would say.

What, Scott: did you think all of your worldwide compatriots were atheists?

Some scholar you are! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 10, 2008 4:20 PM:

" To Dandre'
Brother Veteran did you not see american combat soldiers lay playing cards on top of dead viet cong to intimidate other viet cong? Did you participate in it? Did you not see the traps and deadly methods the viet cong used to wound soldiers, thinking if we wound one it takes out three, the wounded man and two to carry him? As I stated earlier, any method to stay one step ahead of the mass murderers, I support. If you can't wrap your ears around that thought then you might as well move your children and grandchildren to the next attack and ground zero in the United States.
Being attacked isn't the question any longer, When? Is the question, and if your service didn't teach you that, then there is something seriously wrong with your war experience and you better check in for ptsd. Agent Orange has effected us, it's more deadly than the nuclear bomb being dropped that I mentioned earlier not only to american service members but to civilians alike.
The birth defects continued for years after on both continents. Our government does deny it, they deny benefits and treatment. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 10, 2008 4:27 PM:

" To Dandre'
But it hasn't been a Republican in office since 1961 any Deomocrat could have changed that fact on Agent Orange and not one stepped up and did it. The Vets law suits are the only thing that has brought any suggnificant recognition or change to the VA's approach on Agent Orange. Even though you can prove you were there and during the time frame they have now narrowed it down to having being used, they are still denying you. You and I both know that honestly is not calibrated with the time frame they have given, but what about Vietnam to those who didn't participate do they understand? Zilch!!!! So many lies have been swarn to by unqualified people who are given the entitlement to make a wrong right and refuse to based on the mere cost it would entail to pay everyone effected by it. The Government never wants to pay, they just want to throw money at a defense and hope it sticks. The longer they fight and the less is done, the more of us that will die and not be compensated. They win! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 10, 2008 4:36 PM:

" To Dandre'
Imagine setting across from a VA service officers desk being told you have every symptom of exposure that is available by scientists today but then being told you don't qualify for benefits. They admit they did it to us, they just don't want to have to accept responsibility because there was just simply too many of us exposed.
You are absolutely right that is wrong by anyone's yard stick, it is not only wrong it is disgraceful that men who wore the same uniform can set there collect a fat salary and tell you that to your face.
If it were me, I'd have to resign, I couldn't lie to my fellow brothers and sisters and deny them what they had coming.
We never got Thanked in the first place and they gave us a death sentence in the process.
But we have to move beyond that for forty some odd years we continue to be responsible productive citizens and denial is our reward.
You want to honor a veteran of Vietnam fight to change these injustices, you want to thank us forty years late end this insanity and make our government stand up and be counted. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 10, 2008 5:36 PM:

" Fred..
I don’t dis-honor you anymore than I dis-honor the GI’s that stacked those ‘alleged terrorists’ at Abu Ghraib or John McCain for the collateral damage in his career or Crazy Joe from Philly getting all glassy eyed about his machine gun antics during Tet or the friend of mine that showed off his 2 inch high stack of polaroids of his ‘kills’ or Lt Calley and his platoon for Mei Lai .
I dis-honor this group of people that has been behind the scenes, one way or another, since Viet Nam and Watergate, and I don’t care what party they are from! I dis-honor WAR FOR PROFITEERS as traitors…and Fred I didn’t cause your health problems and you’re defending the very people that denied your benefits and you still avoid the fact that ‘waterboarding’ is illegal by trying to dis-honor me "

The Oracle says... wrote on Jun 10, 2008 8:33 PM:

" ...To the contrary Scott, you did say in a past gun control post, that you would not defend yourself or your family if you had to shoot someone inside your home late at night. Your words and if you remember, you defended your views then. As to the "if we don't torture, they won't torture" You guys just dont get it, and its truly scary that you dont. Muslim extremists dont care what party you belong to, or that your a card carrying member of the ACLU, and have a save the snowy plover bumper sticker on your Volvo. They want a global caliphate and either you convert to Islam or you have to DIE...Their is NO in-between. They have no rules except to win..This is what makes Iran so dangerous and scary. They will martyr themselves all day long to achieve their goals. Lopping the head off an "infidel" is looked upon positively by them. We are not fighting nation states that have agreements, rules, etc.. And what about your 9-11 suspect statement.."get caught and punished" What should be their punishment Scott? "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 11, 2008 3:56 AM:

" Just for the record, the comments made by "Scott Tucker" on June 10, 2008 at 4:28PM and then again at 4:49PM were not made by me.

Watchdog Fred, try sticking to your own name to avoid confusion. Or is that simple rule too confusing for ya?

And need I remind you, Fred, that it is you who keeps bringing up the Switzerland issue. I simply chose to ignore it the first time (is that what you call "going postal"?), but for some reason it is really important to you and you keep bringing it up over and over and over. The fact that I live in Switzerland has absolutely nothing to do with the torture debate at hand, and yet you want to make it your leading story. Our online friend, Sid, got over the fact that I live in Switzerland long ago (thanks Sid). I respectfully suggest that you do the same. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 11, 2008 8:13 AM:

" Dandre'
Because I ask hard questions doesn't mean I dishonor any veteran, I in fact Thank You for your service and honor anyone who has the where with all to stand up for his/her country.
Furthermore, yes I support our nation, and no I am not defending those who put all of us in harms way and used slow acting chemicals to slowly and painfully cause our demize. In fact I state infactically that it was inhumane, dishonest and unnecessary. I don't put down the population I so proudly served for what a few Officers in their infinite wisdom caused us to suffer.
The civilians and military minds that decided to poor drum after drum of agent orange into the rivers and spray jungles probably didn't have a clue or care about the long term effects of that action. I cannot blame the society I so love for what a few did to me and my brothers/sisters for they know not what they did. But I do blame those in government for their denial who do know yet refuse to acknowledge it happened to all of us, not just a few who served. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 11, 2008 8:22 AM:

" Dandre'

You have to realize this is the same government who dug trenches and ordered soldiers into those trenches yards away from Nuclear Tests in the 1950's. Does our Government make mistakes, you bet they do and some are lulu's. But it is still the best Government in the world and I fully support them most of the time.
I never supported Mei Lai nor many of the items you mentioned but I damn sure don't supprt those cowardly terrorist who piloted those planes into the twin towers in New York City on 9/11.
As for waterboarding, that technique was used in Vietnam by the Viet Cong, but people have lost track of that fact since we have free trade and tourism established with them. Look at the relationship we now have with Japan and I could share some stories about their practices my dad shared with me, but they wouldn't print them here. War is Hell, during and after but they continue to prosper. The terrorist launched the first salvo if you remember correctly, we didn't. If you think waterboarding is the worse torture tactic you don't know much about torture. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 11, 2008 8:30 AM:

" Dandre'
Those of you who don't support torture need to watch the effects of an airplane dropping napalm on a battlefield. That liquid death is worse than any form of torture going and I am sure it is used in the war effort today in some circumstances.
Some of the sophisticated weaponry we use on a battlefield creates death on demand and yet you don't mention that because it is in our arsenal. Well my opinion is torture is also in our arsenal and if the Scott Tucker's of the world want to be naive enough to believe an enemy wouldn't use it against us because we didn't use it against them needs to study WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and every other action in between. Any group involved in beheadings, mass murder, executions without benefit of a trial deserves to have that arsenal opened up and released in a hellacious windfall of flaming hell using every method available in my book. There will time enough for counting when the dealing is done. If we don't put an end to terrorist they surely won't return the favor. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 11, 2008 9:09 AM:

" Alejandro, whoever said anything about using guns? Is that all you understand, violent means and methods? Shoot 'em up, bang bang! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 11, 2008 11:21 AM:

" To Scott Tucker if I made a mistake and printed your name it is because you were in my thoughts when I began to blog, sorry it was a mistake, I didn't do it on purpose. You however went to Switzerland that was your choice, how did I learn of it, because YOU brought it up in a very early blog. So you must be proud of your dedication to your residence, yes your residence, I don't care how many passports, identification papers you present you still reside outside these United States and when you make comments from thousands of miles away you can expect to take flack for it. We who pay local taxes such as sales tax contribute to this city with our money as well as our comments. If you cannot see the difference then you wasted time getting an education. I'm not saying you can't comment just some of the topics you speak on don't even concern you because you don't live here any longer. You want to talk about torture some of those are pretty trecherous as you disguise them behind $100 words like that is impressive. "

jeff wrote on Jun 11, 2008 11:27 AM:

" Hey Fred, whatever happened to “Well dad always said if you can't say anything good don't say anything at all, guess I'll shut up now”? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 11, 2008 11:28 AM:

" To Scott Tucker one thing I will always say though is your arrogance far outways your physical being in the city of Hanford. Don't tell me your heart resides here she is in Switzerland beside you. That's fine, that is the life you chose, I decided after ten years of living in Southern California to return here where I lived the majority of my life. That was my choice. Afterall isn't life all about choice and as we make them we accpet all matter of repsonsibility for doing so. I don't really give a rats **** where you choose to live, it doesnt' effect my income. As for mentioning it from time to time you also mention it in your examples of differences between the United States of America and Switzerland. When often times it's apples and oranges. You have already shown the entire blogging community where you have your loyalties, I didn't do that. So don't take your choices and decisions out on me. You are what you live as you are what you eat young scholar, and for that you can balme no one but you. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 11, 2008 3:15 PM:

" TO SCOTT TUCKER:

Now you have ‘liberally progressed' into becoming a barefaced liar.

I have never mentioned anything about using guns or gun violence in this column and request an immediate retraction and apology.

GUNS? "

Dandre wrote on Jun 11, 2008 3:25 PM:

" Joe Conservative wakes up in the morning and goes to the bathroom. He flushes his toilet and brushes his teeth, mindful that each flush & brush costs him about 43 cents to his privatized water provider. His wacky, liberal neighbor keeps badgering the company to disclose how clean and safe their water is, but no one ever finds out. Just to be safe, Joe Conservative boils his drinking water.
Joe steps outside and coughs–the pollution is especially bad today, but the smokiest cars are the cheapest ones, so everyone buys ‘em. Joe Conservative checks to make sure he has enough toll money for the 3 different private roads he must drive to work. There is no public transportation, so traffic is backed up and his 10 mile commute takes an hour.

On the way, he drops his 12 year old daughter off at the clothing factory she works at. Paying for kids to go to private school until they’re 18 is a luxury, and Joe needs the extra income coming in. Times are hard and there’re no social safety nets. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 11, 2008 3:27 PM:

" He is not feeling well today, but has no health insurance, since neither his employer nor his government provide it, and paying for it himself is really expensive, since he has a precondition. He just hopes for the best.
Joe’s workday is 12 hours long, because there is no regulation over working hours, and Joe will lose his job if he complains or unionizes. Today is an especially bad day. Joe’s manager demands that he work until midnight, a 16 hour day. Joe does, knowing that he’ll lose his job if he does not.
Finally, after midnight, Joe gets to pick up his daughter and go home. His daughter shows him the deep cut she got on the industrial sewing machine today. Joe is outraged and asks why she doesn’t have metal mesh gloves or other protection. She says the company will not provide it and she’ll have to pay for it out of her own pocket. Joe looks at the wound and decides they’ll use an over the counter disinfectant and bandages until it heals. She’ll have a scar, but getting stitches at the emergency room is expensive. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 11, 2008 3:28 PM:

" His daughter also complains that the manager made suggestive overtures towards her. Joe counsels her to be a “good girl” and not rock the boat, or she’ll get fired and they’ll be out the income.
His daughter says she can’t wait until she’s 18 so she can vote for change or go to the Iraq War.
They get home and there’s a message from his elderly father who can’t afford to pay his medical or heating bills. Joe can hear him coughing and shivering.

Joe turns on the radio and the top story is a proposal in Congress to raise the voting age to 25. A rare liberal opinionator states that it’s an attempt to keep power out of the hands of working class Americans. The conservative host immediately quashes him, calling him “a utopian idealist,” and agreeing that people aren’t mature enough to make good choices until they’re at least 25.
Joe chuckles at the wine-swilling, cheese eating liberal egghead and thinks, “Thank God I live in America where I have freedom!” "

Dandre wrote on Jun 11, 2008 3:31 PM:

" Enjoy your life Scott Tucker! Sounds like you earned it...and you know misery really does love company! "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 11, 2008 4:23 PM:

" Alejandro, you are right. I addressed my comment to you when it should have been addressed to the Oracle. So hard to keep you two apart sometimes, although your prose is better and your comments are usually more smug. Please accept my apologies. Here I am harping at Fred for writing confusing messages, while doing the same thing myself. Thanks for calling me out on my mistake. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 11, 2008 4:35 PM:

" Dandre, Thanks. I already am enjoying my life. Work is good. Family is good. Food, art, music, books are good. Sport is good. Lots to be thankful for. However, there is still a lot of things that I can help to improve in this world. For example, trying to convince people that torture is morally and ethically wrong is one area that can be improved upon. Not quite sure what you mean with your misery loves company comment however. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 11, 2008 4:51 PM:

" To Jeff - well Dad is gone now but even if he wasn't I never claimed to listen to all his advice. Just like you obviously didn't listen to your Dad either. Where you been haven't heard from you in a while. I missed your comments, usually we agree are we having a falling out? Keep those comments coming. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 11, 2008 5:34 PM:

" To Dandre'
I sense a little Edgar Alan Poe in your history of reading and knowledgeable background. Only a Poe fan could so aptly describe life at it's worst in his own mind and translate it into an articulate box top speech about society. My God, I would hate to think this is how you view your place and your daughters place in life today. if things are that bleek and misguided in your life, I truly am beginning to understand your plite.
However, I had it more refined with an RV parked by the side of the house, three or four cars in the drive and front yard just aching to go on vacation and exploring this beautiful country. But then we can all be wrong on some matters sometimes. But if dispelling all that bent up torture from your mind cells helped, that's a good thing and a theraputic thing and I welcome you do that often and completely as many times as you feel the need. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 11, 2008 5:44 PM:

" To Alejandro,
The young scholar often times confuses issues and comments, but don't dare you do so, you saw what happens when you do? Mine was a simple mistake he was the thought so when I went to enter my own name I entered his simple mistake, but the rath of Scott was almost conclusive to his striking out and rages from a man who claims to detest violence. John Paul Jones said it best "Don't Tread On Me". I expected to hear the metal sabors clicking and clanking in contest at any minute. Surely a slap in the face with a glove and a challenge to a Gentlemen's Duel had to be the next step. Not out of character at all if you truly recognize the character you are dealing with instead of the facade presented in type.
Well my lad once again you have foiled the liberal left from pulling the wool over our eyes and proclaiming victory, charge on young warrior and remember valor and honor still exist in the good fight for the people. Is it honorable to place your jacket over a sink hole? "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 11, 2008 6:23 PM:

" Accepted, Scott. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 11, 2008 6:38 PM:

" Sorry to say, Duane Andre, that your story contained in you last three posts is total garbage.

Just how long have you been a garbage collector of pseudo liberal diatribe?

Well, I guess you are...please, continue shuckin' and jivin'.

At least you are through trashing real American heroes (for now).

PS. I wonder if you were drafted or did you volunteer for your service to America? "

Dandre wrote on Jun 11, 2008 7:57 PM:

" Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance -- now Joe gets it, too.
He prepares his morning breakfast. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.
In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.
Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 11, 2008 7:58 PM:

" He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.
Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union.
If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment checks because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.
It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 11, 2008 7:59 PM:

" Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university.
Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the taxpayer funded roads.
He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans.
The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.
He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 11, 2008 8:00 PM:

" Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved conservatives have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have." "

Dandre wrote on Jun 11, 2008 8:02 PM:

" Scott, I was referencing your detractors'
misery. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 11, 2008 8:08 PM:

" Al... its called an 'RA' number instead of a 'US' number and yuor DD214 is no bigger than mine and evidently I was right about the idol worship... "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 12, 2008 3:39 AM:

" Dandre, Thanks for clarifying. Of that (their misery) there is lots. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 12, 2008 8:55 AM:

" That’s not edgar allen poe, that first scenario the ‘world view’ fantasy of Edmund Burke, the super-hero, father of conservatism. This is what you have been voting to achieve by voting for conservatism. Its ‘dark’ because the republican party is the party of ‘black prison sites’, ‘dark markets’, and ‘Darth Vadar’ cheney’s ‘working on the dark side’.
‘Ebenezer Scrooge and Tiny Tim’ was the conservative ‘model’, no middle class, and your ‘conservative fathers’ are doing all they can to get us back there and they will exploit you and your vote to get what they want.
De-regulation and privitazation of everything for all! "

jeff wrote on Jun 12, 2008 9:09 AM:

" http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080612/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_guantanamo

Stupid Supreme Court, thinks people should have rights! "

Fred Hutsell wrote on Jun 12, 2008 1:59 PM:

" As Long as you are in to living out fantasy, perhpas you would want to listen to the scariest fabrication how about War of the Worlds. The orator was so convincing people were contemplating suicicde because of it's realism. Much like some might with the plight contained in your stories. But it would all be for fabricated lies on the american soil, wouldn't it? "

Dandre wrote on Jun 12, 2008 6:00 PM:

" Mr Hutsell..that second scenario is the America I know and love!
The first scenario will result from the ‘corporatizing’’ of our Government by the present administration, by putting ‘corporate cronies’ in regulating positions overseeing the industry they once worked for, that has produced ‘poisonous lead paint’ on our kids toys, ecoli outbreaks, the mortgage crisis, the Katrina response or lack of response, etal. Some of those things in that ‘nightmare’ are already in place, in case you haven’t been paying attention…
This isn’t Orson Wells this is George Orwell "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 12, 2008 7:14 PM:

" Not a question of bigger, Duane Andre, but truth.

Like the truth of your friend on the yacht.

So which one is it, Duane?

'RA' or 'US'?

Or have you forgotten... "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 12, 2008 8:13 PM:

" To Alejandro,
I found a very interesting read it is a Bio, of John S. McCain III you can fidn it at:

http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/m/m125.htm

I think you'll find it very informative, it is six full pages in print if you'd care to print it out and make it an easier read. This is good read for Dandre', Scott, Jeff and their crowd as well, might just open some otherwise closed minds.

For those of you who think Cuba and Russia always played by the rules, you'll find this exceptionally interesting.

Read about the man McCain instead of the rhetoric and propaganda that's spoke about him. He piloted one of the best bombers in Vietnam an A-4 Skyhawk, that people increasingly call F-4 the latter not being carrier landing capable.

Torture is nasty business but just because we don't torture them doesn't mean they won't and can't torture us. Torture is not voluntary for anyone receiving it.

Good reading and I hope this helps in November when you decide who should be the Commander and Chief. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 12, 2008 9:40 PM:

" A certain poster here - who knows the ins and outs of illegal activities when he lived in Kings County - says:

"Stupid Supreme Court . . . "

One justice voted - not the entire supreme court - voted to protect the rights of these terrorists.

Just like the one justice of the CA. Court voted to ignore the mandate of the people to keep marriage between a man and a woman.

This poster just loves to be against everything the majority of us want.

What a mensch! "

Dandre wrote on Jun 13, 2008 10:10 AM:

" Mr Hutsell..that second scenario is the America I know and love!
The first scenario will result from the ‘corporatizing’’ of our Government by the present administration, by putting ‘corporate cronies’ in regulating positions overseeing the industry they once worked for, that has produced ‘poisonous lead paint’ on our kids toys, ecoli outbreaks, the mortgage crisis, the Katrina response or lack of response, etal. Some of those things in that ‘nightmare’ are already in place, in case you haven’t been paying attention…
This isn’t Orson Wells this is George Orwell
You know, al, my memory is just fine and I still remember my RA #, off the top of my head. And your hyperbole and uneducated opinion is still your truth and is not worth the lies it is built on…
and your experience with duke wayne was what again?
The supreme court vote was 5-4, 5 judges voted to protect the rights of these people not 1, you know there's that liberal principle, 'innocent until proven guilty', your world view is closer to 'mein kemph' than it is to Our Constitution, that’s why the 'bushbabies' are down to under 20%.... "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 13, 2008 10:58 AM:

" Mr. Dandre' I believe if you do your research many of the lead laden toys came from other countries not the United States, that is point one, point two is after my fifty seven years, I have learned and evidently you have not. Life is what you make of it, if you choose to fold your cards and be oh woh is me, then that is pretty much how your life is going to be. But if you truly are full of life you fight with every ounce of strength you have to continue it, not for yourself, that is the wrong reason but for others around you who care love and respect you. But the overall thought continues if you make a dirty bed to lie in then you'll lay in a dirty bed. If you pick yourself up by your bootstraps you can be whatever you want to be, that's why this is still the United States of America regardless of what either party has done to her. You lose track of that fact when you and your scholarly friend choose to look at the empty cup instead of the half full cup. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 13, 2008 11:21 AM:

" Alejandro,
You don't understand this is just like watching television for a lot of the liberals what is o.k. on the Public Broadcasting isn't allowed on regular television and vice versa. But there are exceptions, I use to watch Norm Abrams on Public TV when he first started now he is on the DIY Pay Channel Network.
The point being just like television if it's popular on PBS then they'll change it up a little bit even though it is the same program and re-air it with their twist on television.
That's how you can have two of the exact same panels making the exact same decision and one is right and the other is wrong. The wrong one now has the liberal twist to it.
Government has been replaced in our bedrooms by Justice's of the Supreme Court that's what's happened the liberal twist has taken effect. What's next a playground for children and pedophiles? Perhaps an obstacle course for rapist and their victims? The hole enchilada is going to hell in a hand basket and we the voting public are allowing it to happen. Our feet should have hit the Street. "

jeff wrote on Jun 13, 2008 11:30 AM:

" “The justices, in a 5-4 vote, said the U.S. Constitution enshrined the “privilege of habeas corpus” — or the right to go before a judge — as a safeguard of liberty. And that right extends even to foreigners who are captured in the war on terrorism, the court said, particularly when they have been held up to six years without charges.” I’m no math major but 5 + 4 = 9 (The current entire Supreme Court). "

Dandre wrote on Jun 13, 2008 12:14 PM:

" Mr Hutsell..that second scenario is the America I know and love!
The first scenario will result from the ‘corporatizing’’ of our Government by the present administration, by putting ‘corporate cronies’ in regulating positions overseeing the industry they once worked for, that has produced ‘poisonous lead paint’ on our kids toys, ecoli outbreaks, the mortgage crisis, the Katrina response or lack of response, etal. Some of those things in that ‘nightmare’ are already in place, in case you haven’t been paying attention…
This isn’t Orson Wells this is George Orwell
You know, al, my memory is just fine and I still remember my RA #, off the top of my head. And your hyperbole and uneducated opinion is still your truth and is not worth the fantasies it is built on…
The supreme court vote was 5-4, 5 judges voted to protect the rights of these people not 1, you know there's that liberal principle, 'innocent until proven guilty', but we know, you are smarter than Our Constitution, that’s why the bush lovers are down to under 20%.... "

Dandre wrote on Jun 13, 2008 1:20 PM:

" You know, al, my memory is just fine and I still remember my RA #, off the top of my head. And your hyperbole and uneducated opinion is still your truth and is not worth the fantasies it is built on…at least my heroses are real people!
The supreme court vote was 5-4, 5 judges voted to protect the rights of these people not 1, you know there's that liberal principle, 'innocent until proven guilty', but we know, you are smarter than Our Constitution, that’s why the bush lovers are down to under 20%.... "

jeff wrote on Jun 13, 2008 2:43 PM:

" Fred,

“Government has been replaced in our bedrooms by Justice's of the Supreme Court that's what's happened the liberal twist has taken effect.”

What ruling did the Supreme Court make in recent history that has any bearing on your bedroom? Also please (If you can) explain to me what presence the ‘Government’ had in your bedroom prior to being replaced by the Supreme Court. I know in my bedroom there’s a TV, a closet, 2 end tables and a bed. I’ve never once seen the ‘Government’ - or a Supreme Court judge for that matter – in my bedroom. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 13, 2008 3:06 PM:

" The play ground for pedophiles, fred, is the republican party

·Republican presidential campaign official Matthew Joseph Elliott was convicted of sexual exploitation of a child.
·Republican Party Chairman Donald Fleischman was charged with two counts of child enticement, two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a child and a single charge of exposing himself to a child.
·Republican prosecutor John David Roy Atchison was arrested for soliciting sex from a 5-year old girl, then killed himself three weeks later. At the time of his arrest, Atchison was an "assistant U.S. attorney" appointed by President Bush's attorney general.
·Republican city councilman John Bryan killed himself after police began investigating allegations that he had molested three girls, including two of his adopted daughters, ages 12 and 15.
·Republican legislator Ted Klaudt was charged with raping girls under the age of 16.
·Republican city councilman Joseph Monteleone Jr. was found guilty of fondling underage girls.
·Republican congressional aide Jeffrey Nielsen was arrested for having sex with a 14-year old boy.
·Republican County Commissioner Patrick Lee McGuire surrendered to police after allegedly molesting girls between the ages of 8 and 13. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 13, 2008 3:15 PM:

" ·Republican prosecutor Larry Corrigan was arrested for soliciting sex from 13-year old girls.
·Republican Mayor Jeffrey Kyle Randall was sentenced to 275 days in jail for molesting two boys -- ages ten and 12 -- during a six-year period.
·Republican County Board Candidate Brent Schepp was charged with molesting a 14-year old girl and killed himself three days later.
And we haven’t even got to Mark Foley, that’s I dozen repub pedophiles, the list I found has another 5 dozen………….and I am smart enough to consume information and come to an educated conclusion about that information but the ‘book burning’ mentality that manifested itself in nazi germany is a conservative principle, that I am sure, helps with your self induced migranes…..
·But your fear of pbs is pretty comical……Let me guess, the ‘Clinton Chronicles’ is your favorite…… "

Dandre wrote on Jun 13, 2008 3:20 PM:

" The 'toys' came from China, fred, with the agency that supposedly regulates them being run by another political hack!
That small twist you keep referring to again sounds like it is self induced! "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 13, 2008 3:20 PM:

" One Supreme Court justice - breaking the 4-4 tie -decided this issue, Duane. One -uno.

I accept it, the President said he will accept it, and the armed forces will accept it.

However, military tribunals are still scheduled for these combatants who threatened American soldier's lives. That will not change.

I wonder if you would want civilian courts to defend those captured NVA irregulars (a.k.a. ‘VC') who killed so many Americans in years past?

From your posts here, you most likely would, Duane. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 13, 2008 5:50 PM:

" "One justice voted - not the entire supreme court - voted to protect the rights of these terrorists.

Just like the one justice of the CA. Court voted to ignore the mandate of the people to keep marriage between a man and a woman."

5 Justices voted in favor of the decisions, al, 5, cinco, not 1 and I have all the confidence in the world that our Constitution and our treaty commitments were working just fine until these neo-cons- got their hands on it!
I don’t share your blind faith in giving this executive the unconstitutional power to circumvent that Constitution…if these ‘detainees’ are guilty charge and try them but that’s not what’s happening, al, to hold someone without charge and torture them for 5 years and then release them is stuff Adolph would be proud of…and that is and has happened "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 13, 2008 9:35 PM:

" Jeff - should have been Justices of the California Supreme Court. They were just in everybody's bedroom telling everyone no holds barred go for it sinners anything anytime anywhere and if straight people don't like it they have to lump it. 5 of 9 Justices decided, that makes me wonder what is in their closets? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 13, 2008 9:45 PM:

" To Dandre'
Bio, McCain, John Sidney III
USS Oriskany piloted an A4E Bomber was shot down over Hanoi, Vietnam 26October1967 released as POW 1973. Imprisoned for 6 years.
On my 23rd mission, a missile the size of a telephone pole, blew the right wing off the Skyhawk bomber which I was piloting. It went into an inverted, almost straight down spin. I was knocked unconscious by the force of the ejection. I did not realize it at the moment, but I had broken my right leg at the knee, my left arm and my right arm in three places. I regained consciousness as I parachuted into a lake right in the center of Hanoi. My helment and Oxygen Mask had been blown off. With my fifty pounds of equipment and gear I sank to the bottom. I rose and then started sinking. I could not understand why I could not use my right arm or leg. The third time I sank I couldn't get back to the surface. (Continued in next blog) "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 13, 2008 9:55 PM:

" To Dandre'
Bio, McCain, John Sidney III
With my teeth I was finally able to get the toggle released thus inflating the life preserver which floated me to the top.
Some North Vietnamese swam out and pulled me to the side of the lake. As they stripped me of my clothes, they kicked and spit on me. I notice my right foot was at a 90 degree position resting next to my left knee. When I said, "My God - my leg!" they became enraged. They slammed a rifle butt down on my shoulder which smasked it pretty badly and another stuck a bayonet in my foot.

I have referred to this in many blogs but this is what happened in John S. McCain's own words for you to read and consume. This man is a patriot who after four days of constant beatings until he was unconscious agreed to give information if only they would treat his broken limbs and other medical needs. They took him to a filth infested hospital and performed one surgery on his leg and reset his broken arms while he was conscious. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 13, 2008 10:11 PM:

" To Dandre'
6/20/96
Cuban War Crimes Against American POW's During Vietnam War Michael Benge Ex-POW 1968-1973.
Pentagon Officials confirmed that POW's released during "Operation Homecoming" in 1973, were told not to talk about "third-country interrogations".

Not only was it not discussed, the torture and murder of over 20 Americans by Cubans, was swept under the rug by the U.S. Government. The Cubans were attached to Hanoi's Enemy Proselytizing Bureau with jurisdiction over American POWs.

Air Force Colonel Donald "Digger" Odell gave his Defense Department debriefers an eyewitness account of two American POWs, who the Hanoi communists handn't released because "The Vietnamese didn't want the world to see what they had done to them."

In spite of the Colonel's eyewitness account, and those of other returnees, DOD (Department Of Defense) continues to vehemently deny that any American POWs had been left behind.

This bio goes on and on in detail I don't want to print, but it also names three Cuban Military types who were there to torture and kill Americans. American dogfighting specialists and other tactics were sent to Russia to be interrogated/tortured for their knowledge.
Now is third-country torture new? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 13, 2008 10:23 PM:

" To Dandre'
The article goes on to talk about a visit by Fidel Castro himself who in 1972 flew to Vietnam and was in hospitals and one prisoner camp which never released it's prisoners to the U.S.
The three Cubans:
The behavior of "Fidel",, "Chico" and "Pancho" (not their real names) is beyond pale and is clearly in violation of the standards set at Nuremberg after World War II.
Therefore, these Cuban War ciminals should be tried before an international tribunal similar to that supported by the U.S. Government for the prosecution of perpetrators of war crimes in Bosnia.
The communist regime in Hanoi can easily identify these Cubans.

According to a recently returning Vietnamese 34-A commando, was the Thanh Tri Pison, where he saw 60 American POWs in 1969. Also in the prison was approximately 100 Frenchmen and Morocan POWs captured in the early 1950's.

Now you want to talk about unfinished business, that is unfinished business. So yes Dandre' the government lies and gets caught in those lies and those captured were for the most part captured during Lyndon B. Johnson's administation and I do believe he was a Democrat! Skeletons! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 14, 2008 9:22 AM:

" Your best President ever in last twentieth Century Bill Clinton. Yeah what a man while her daughter is out campaigning for her mother on College campuses she can't set foot on campus without being asked about her fathers indiscretions in the White House. What a legacy your hero has left his family and this country. Bill Clinton was the biggest embarassment to this country in all the previous centuries. In fact he continues to be so, there are accusations he's been up to it again while on the campaign trail or do you still have your head burrowed in the Ostrich Hole? The best thing Hilldog could do for him is to have him neutered. He learned that from your other favorite demaguag JFK who also participated in indiscretions while President with Actress Monroe and others. Which by the way J. Edgar Hoover had proof of through his investigations of JFK. He also linked Bobby Kennedy to the same woman for the same indiscretions. So before you pop the champagne bottle to celebrate the entire man not just the jaded smooth talking version you saw on television. Think! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 14, 2008 9:31 AM:

" Only a person who's own moral compass is off base could accept behavior like JFK and Clinton actively participated in, and could approve of it. Perhaps many feel that character, moral judgement, honesty to the public and their spouse, lies and contempt for women belong in politics. After all politics is the seond oldest profession in the United States and sometimes it's hard with men like those for examples to tell the two apart. Please if you are going to tell the story let's not leave out important details that describe and measure the entire man. Does anyone really think it is o.k. to put your spouse on hold while you seek gratification from another? If that is how you wish to measure a man and determine his loyalty, character, honesty, word then you can't call him the best President of the twentieth century now can you? At least Jimmy Carter has been loyal and faithful to his wife. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 14, 2008 9:32 AM:

" Three reporters from Arizona, on the condition of anonymity, relayed a story involving John McCain's intemperateness. In his Senate bid, McCain was joined on the campaign trail by his wife, Cindy, as well as campaign aide Doug Cole and consultant Wes Gullett. At one point, Cindy playfully twirled McCain's hair and said, "You're getting a little thin up there." McCain's face reddened, and he responded, "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you ####." McCain's excuse was that it had been a long day. If elected president of the United States, McCain would have many long days. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 14, 2008 10:11 AM:

" So, you wanna see the other 5 dozen, that works out to 60, republican pedophiles on that list.
And what did you say about Moral compass?
McCain likes to illustrate his moral fibre by referring to his five years as a prisoner-of-war in Vietnam. And to demonstrate his commitment to family values, the 71-year-old former US Navy pilot pays warm tribute to his beautiful blonde wife, Cindy, with whom he has four children.
But there is another Mrs McCain who casts a ghostly shadow over the Senator’s presidential campaign. She is seldom seen and rarely written about, despite being mother to McCain’s three eldest children.
And yet, had events turned out differently, it would be she, rather than Cindy, who would be vying to be First Lady. She is McCain’s first wife, Carol, who was a famous beauty and a successful swimwear model when they married in 1965.
She was the woman McCain dreamed of during his long incarceration and torture in Vietnam’s infamous ‘Hanoi Hilton’ prison and the woman who faithfully stayed at home looking after the children and waiting anxiously for news. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 14, 2008 10:12 AM:

" But when McCain returned to America in 1973 to a fanfare of publicity and a handshake from Richard Nixon, he discovered his wife had been disfigured in a terrible car crash three years earlier. Her car had skidded on icy roads into a telegraph pole on Christmas Eve, 1969. Her pelvis and one arm were shattered by the impact and she suffered massive internal injuries.
When Carol was discharged from hospital after six months of life-saving surgery, the prognosis was bleak. In order to save her legs, surgeons
had been forced to cut away huge sections of shattered bone, taking with it her tall, willowy figure. She was confined to a wheelchair and was forced to use a catheter.
Through sheer hard work, Carol learned to walk again. But when John McCain came home from Vietnam, she had gained a lot of weight and bore little resemblance to her old self.
Today, she stands at just 5ft4in and still walks awkwardly, with a pronounced limp. Her body is held together by screws and metal plates and, at 70, her face is worn by wrinkles that speak of decades of silent suffering. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 14, 2008 10:17 AM:

" For nearly 30 years, Carol has maintained a dignified silence about the accident, McCain and their divorce. But last week at the bungalow where she now lives at Virginia Beach, a faded seaside resort 200 miles south of Washington, she told The Mail on Sunday how McCain divorced her in 1980 and married Cindy, 18 years his junior and the heir to an Arizona brewing fortune, just one month later.

All the Democrats you try to smear have been married ONCE with no divorces.
How many times for you, 'moral compass dog?
The newt geingrich morl compass looks good on you....amazing "

terrorists and torture wrote on Jun 14, 2008 7:49 PM:

" Terrorists by their very nature are criminals of both national laws and international laws. They have no respect for human rights, civil rights, equality, or any other noble principals. If they are threatening us we should be able to use any means necessary to extract information especially if we think an attack is about to happen. Don't you liberals ever tire of fighting for the rights of these gutless and ruthless murdering losers? When we convict criminals they lose rights like the right to vote, right to freedom, etc., I think terrorists lose the rights to be treated with kid gloves. They are living by the sword and I have no problem with them dying by the sword, especially if they are threatening any innocent people or children. Talk all you want, that is what I support. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 15, 2008 2:40 AM:

" Dear "terrorists and torture", I have no argument with you when you write that terrorists by their very nature are criminals of both national and international laws, who have no respect for human or civil rights, equality, or any other noble principles. It is not for the right of the terrorist that I am fighting for, but rather our collective rights, the rights of the human being. For such rights, I will never tire of fighting. Talk all you want, that is what I support. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 15, 2008 10:32 AM:

" T and T…..The problem with your rant, you talk like every PERSON that we have in custody is a ‘terrorist’. We had over 800 detainees at Gitmo and have released 500 with NO CHARGES, you know MISTAKES, something this administration is great at, BEING WRONG!
Nowhere are the legal, political, and anti-terror philosophies between the United States and Canada more apparent than they are in the case of Maher Arar. He is the Syrian-born Canadian citizen who was traveling back to his home five years ago when he was arrested at Kennedy Airport by U.S. officials. Acting upon faulty intelligence from the Canadians, the feds promptly "rendered" the Ottawa engineer to Syria, where he was tortured.

What did the Canadian government do when it discovered that it had made a grievous mistake? It launched an official inquiry, held hearings, publicly apologized to Arar, and then paid him $10 million in compensation for its errors. What has the American government done? It refused to participate in the Canadian inquiry, stalled a meaningful lawsuit brought by Arar, refused to officially apologize to him and continues whenever possible to call him a member of al Qaeda. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 15, 2008 10:34 AM:

" Your party has trashed our Constitution and we are about to change all that, hopefully, with the proper use of what used to be the best judicial system in the world by prosecuting ALL war criminals, no matter what side they are on.
Its called ‘the rule of law’ and the blatant disregard for this basic American principle by the republican party is an international disgrace. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 15, 2008 11:05 AM:

" Dandre' you know you absolutely amaze me with your rhetoric about my divorces. My two count them 2 preivous wives and I came to an adult decision after 13 years the first time and 17 years the seond time that we would be better off not married. So it wasn't a two year thing and it was over we tried in each case to resolve issues. We discussed it, we decided it, my first wife married a man ten years her junior only weeks after our divorce was final, so what?
You are trying to tell me it is better to sustain a marriage like Bill and Hillary and have your indiscretions as long as you just make it one marriage in your lifetime. Is that how you would want your daughters marriage to be Mr. Dandre'. No Thank You if I couldn't be satisfied by one, I wouldn't be married to begin with Dandre/. Before you start picking up those pebbles and throwing them my way, you haven't lived out your entire life and you have no idea what your marital future holds, you may not be given a choice. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 15, 2008 11:12 AM:

" Dandre' furthermore I am not the Politician who is suppose to be held to the higher level. These men are saddled with the responsibility of setting the example for men and women, my example is to far less and the last thing I would want for my son is to be in a loveless marriage keeping it together because society says so. Divorce was created for a reason, so I guess if your wife becomes displeased and doesn't want you anymore she is just stuck because that is Dandre's Rules, is that it? Many people including the moderator have been divorced so perhaps you might want to keep your own compass emphasizing it's own opinion on your own marriage. In otherwords mind your business, I am not running for President and neither are you.
You want to try and destroy every war hero, Republican Politician and actor in your own smear campaigns. Did you ever think that Carol was the one who wanted the divorce that the man who had been brutually tortured and almost killed was not the man she married? Do to no fault of his own. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 15, 2008 11:21 AM:

" Dandre' there are thousands returning from Iraq Afghan war with ptsd who were never captured held for six years and tortured. You as a Vietnam Veteran should understand that every one of us who made that trip changed, while there. Some for the good and some for the bad. We all grew up that is for sure because we were just kids when we went, most of us. Furthermore I can't believe a grunt on the ground would be so harsh on a pilot who may have dropped a bomb or provided other air support to save your bacon. The grunts I know who were there Thanked God for the air support we provided them when they needed it most. I've always been of the opinion that's who we were there for our fellow soldiers, airmen and marines who needed our help. I as John McCain take pride in my service, my ship was made into razor blades but I still have T-shirts that I wear saluting her with her picture on the front with Served In Vietnam across the top. I also proudly wear a baseball cap with her name. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 15, 2008 11:29 AM:

" Dandre' you can be as political as you choose but don't try and dishonor another veteran and I shouldn't have to tell you this, it should already be in your heart. But if you want to make it a contest I will put McCain's war record in Vietnam against John Kerry's anyday. McCain's shipmates aren't calling him a liar on the net. What military service does Obama have to point to, there should never be a Commander In Chief who hasn't served in the Armed Forces. No man or woman should have the power to place military men/women in harms way who hasn't been there themselves. Point in fact George Bush's landing on the carrier declaring mission accomplished, he didn't have a clue and Obama doesn't either to what war is and what can and does happen in it. Flying over Texas is a lot different than flying over Hanoi. But not flying at all is even worse. What will Obama due appoint Reverend Wright to go as ambassador to the Middle East so he can damn the Americans there too? I think it's bad enough he did it in Chicago. "

jeff wrote on Jun 15, 2008 12:29 PM:

" Fred,

So what you’re telling me is that because the Ca Supreme Court voted that gay people could get married this somehow means you must have gay relations in your own bed? I’m confused, just because something is legal doesn’t mean you have to participate in the behavior. Topless bars are legal in California does that mean you MUST go to them? You still have failed at explaining how their ruling on gay marriage does anything to your own personal rights. “They were just in everybody's bedroom telling everyone no holds barred go for it”, they aren’t telling you to do anything Fred and how you arrive at the conclusion that they are telling you to partake in some sexual practice you don’t believe in is quite unreasonable. Your 5 out of 9 Justices comment makes no sense to me so I can’t respond to it. "

jeff wrote on Jun 15, 2008 12:30 PM:

" For everyone here that is so in favor of torture and rounding up someone, never charging them and keeping them in jail for years you’re missing something fairly crucial I think. These people may not be guilty, we don’t know, no charges are ever brought against them so how do you know they’re terrorists? The excuse they did it first is not very mature or befitting of our nation either. It sounds like something a 5 year old says when asked why he is fighting with another child. You’re entire reasoning is they’re terrorists, (Which is an assumption) they torture us so we should torture them. “They started it first!” Has the world turned into a gigantic sandbox? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 15, 2008 9:02 PM:

" Jackie could you do me a favor and explain to Mr. Duane Dandre how this is no longer the Church of England and divorce is allowed in the United States and the United Kingdom these days. Evidently he is of that sub terrainian era where men clubbed their wives in the head and drug them back to their cave and they lived happily ever after.
He can't fathom that you can be a father and still not be married to the mother of your child but many men who grew up in his culture and background demonstrate they aren't capable of doing it. That doesn't mean that those of us of different cultures and background not only could but did willingly, capably and lovingly.
I love people who aspouse to their loyalty and claim their relationship is forever then end up smoking cigars and dribbling on blue dresses worn by interns who they aren't married to. Then those same unfaithful spouses go on to be noted as the best president of the 20th century by the other neandrathals who admire his indiscretions and wear them like a badge of honor. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 15, 2008 9:08 PM:

" Dandre' it has been my experience that employers who find out their husbands are not faithful to their wives often times fire them. Do you have any idea why that might be? It is because the employer is wise enough to realize if a man will lie to his wife and break solemn vows made to her, he isn't worthy of knowing company secrets. Now if an employer is that attentive and smart should the voters also be that smart and attentive? Your hail to the chief to a man who cheated on his wife in the highest office of the land, that very office he ran to represent and be the care taker of, imagine that? Clinton wasn't impeached but he clearly was determined by the evidence against him to be a liar and a cheat against his own wife. Don't you remember the famous "I never had sexual relations with that woman speech". Where he again lied and made Monica look bad, when all Monica was guilty of was telling the truth. He made fools out of two women in his life and destroyed his daughter for sefish gratifications. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 15, 2008 9:27 PM:

" That Dandre' is the man you hail as the best President in the past 20th Century. Once again don't fabricate a clean record for one who is so undeserving of it. If you are gonna tell the facts then include those of the presidents DNA found on Monica's dress which she testified was through a sexual act. Or do you still believe Slick Willy that "he never had sexual relations with that woman". She went from Mistress to That Woman in a blink of an eye, what respect, what a valiant effort of chivalry for all to follow. What an exemplary example of what being a husband and father was demonstrated by your greatest President of the 20th Century. I certainly hope you don't brag on that fact to the women in your life. He tore down his house of cards with those indescretions and that is why Hilldog lost the run this year. Bill's indiscretions cost Hillary the vote of men/women who asked theirselves what kind of woman stays with a man who cheats? If she isn't smart enough to leave him, she isn't smart enough to be President. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 16, 2008 9:27 AM:

" Fred, you started trashing people because of their ‘marital’ performance, questioning MY moral compass, remember!
What happened, fred, your moral compass is all bent up....you whine a lot and answer little, you threw some mud around here that is all over you and your party…..what about the list of republican pedophiles, what about the despicable way Mcbush treated his first wife’s loyality, all the Democrats, including myself, that you TRY to trash have been married ONCE, your ‘obsession’ with Bill Clinton sounds like ‘jealousy’ and you’re on a fixed income?….well, according to Alejandro, that makes you a ‘socialist’!
There are a couple of sayings, ‘when you find yourself in a hole, quit digging’ and something about ‘glass houses’.
LOL "

Dandre wrote on Jun 16, 2008 2:47 PM:

" Jeff... this story covers it

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/detainees/story/38773.html

warning: contains information dangerous to your ideoogy, may cause brain to work..beware "

Dandre wrote on Jun 16, 2008 8:04 PM:

" Fred. the king james version of the bible happened so you protestants could get divorced,
divorce is not recognized in the original version of christianity, Catholicism. You know, divorce, the leading cause of single mothers raising families without fathers who think its ok to have several litters that We the People can pick up the tab in the form of welfare.....if you have been married more than once you live in sin...its in the original bible "

I said terrorists wrote on Jun 16, 2008 10:19 PM:

" I didn't say possible terrorists, or rumored terrorists, or alleged terrorists, I said terrorists. If you catch them making bombs, or wrapping bombs around women and children, or see them on a video killing their hostages, which translates to you catch them red handed doing what terrorists do, then even you two rocket scientists could figure out they are a terrorist and I stand by what I said to do with them. Keep arguing your pacifist views, I'll keep arguing survival. My position will protect your right and ability to argue, while your position will cost innocent lives to be lost and sacrifice our true freedoms. Do you both support the death penalty? Just wondering. Also, just so you will both know, our Constitution trumps international law in our Country. If you don't like that please see the exit doors. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 16, 2008 11:38 PM:

" Dandre' does that same mud fly upon Jackie the moderator of this blog, she also has been divorced. Many very smart articulate, intelligent individuals have been divorced. It is proven in Child Psychology and Adolescent Behaviors that children of divorced parents live healthier lives than those of parents who should have divorced and didn't As long as the divorcing parents are ingtelligent enough to convey to their children they are in no way responsible for the divorce. I suggest you take a poll and ask the women you are acquainted with if they would prefer to be married to a cheating liar who has affairs with others ignoring their vows or be divorced? Nine times out of ten a woman being honest with you will choose the latter. Just because your religion disallows it, it also disallows adultry so your scales once again are out of balance. I don't expect a man who lived in the Sex, Drugs and Rock & Roll era to get it. Your ultra ego already believes you can do whatever you want to that woman who loves you and she will stand by your indiscretions. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 16, 2008 11:46 PM:

" Dandre' we'll take this a step further, Mag, Mrs. D, Nevada, Jackie, Amanda weigh in on this. Does a man have the right to proclaim that because he has had indiscretions and cheated on you that do to church law you will stay with him? Would any of you accepted Slick Willy back into your bedroom with all you know about his trist with Monica Lewinsky? If you would, you are a different crowd than the three women in my life came from.
Dandre' not that it is any of your business but my first wife had an affair on me and left me for a man ten years her junior. So what choice did I have, but to move on and try and have a life. But she didn't get my son I fought tooth and nail for him and was one of the few men in California in 1987 to have 100% Primary Physical Custody of him and we shared Legal Custody. Which meant he stayed with me until he was 18 yrs. old, he told the mediator that was what he wanted. My life was more stable than hers. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 16, 2008 11:53 PM:

" Dandre' you are married to a woman of free will if she decided to leave you there is nothing you can do about it. Believe me, I know. So keep throwing all your inuendo and smirky remarks out there and some day I might be the one laughing at your egotistical barometer that might be blown to smitherines. You are that cave man neandrothal such as Scott P. was who thinks it is all your way and you are in control. You are so far off base it isn't even funny. Slavery went out many years ago and if you think you can keep anyone incased in a relationship they don't want to be in, you are wrong. You can take all that Macho that won't happen to me stuff and put it where the sun don't shine cause that's a bunch of bull too.
As for you believing that cheating and being a liar builds a strong relationship, maybe for you but not your spouse. Once the lies begin they just get bigger and bigger and bigger until one day you are caught up in them so deep you lose. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 17, 2008 12:01 AM:

" Dandre' as for Republican pedophiles you mentioned that in another blog but honestly, your comments were so vague you seemed unclear about what statement you were trying to make. Perhpas it was way past beer thirty for you that night?
Many times you quote requote and misquote to the point most bloggers just scroll past what you are saying. That is why I posted that blog about McCain there is all kinds of data statistics and stories to be told on both sides of the aisle, not just your jaded side. You begin comments and when you get to a point where it looks like what you are quoting could swing either way, you stop quoting and start ranting.
Furthermore, when it comes to statistics the first thing you are taught in a stats class is that they can be used for both sides of any argument and how they are presented determines in which manner they favor or disfavor the argument. In other words they are a tool used to confuse most people into thinking your non point is a point. Which you are very kean at doing and you know it. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 17, 2008 12:58 PM:

" Fred
I am involved in ONE strong relationship that has worked through our problems and will last an eternity. And you are the expert on messed up relationships and act like it was everyboby elses fault. There are alot of marriages who survive all kinds of problems because of the strength of the participants.
Your LACK character judgment or LACK of character are on YOU!
I want to protect my marriage from amateurs like you so I think I’ll start a petition to outlaw divorce. I have the data to prove its harm to society unlike your ‘hyperbolic’ rants. "

The Oracle Says... wrote on Jun 18, 2008 11:21 AM:

" The problem with all of this talk about terrorism and torture etc, is that most of you have never beein involved in its fight. You have to live it, breathe it, smell it and experience it, to FULLY understand why it must be defeated at all costs. Radical Islam is a danger to all of us, regardless of political party, race, sex, etc..If you think that being nice and giving rights to the Taliban or AQ, and having trials for combatants taken off the battlefields of the world, well then you just dont get it. As I get older, I tend to finally understand how their was a civil war in the US. We all have opinions and political ideas. But when your ideas dont just raise my taxes, but endanger my life and our my country, I can see where people could draw a line in the sand. God forbid that should ever occur, but I can understand it. Its like welfare..we all see it, hate it, but still pay taxes. One day, we might not..then what? Same thing with GWOT "

Dandre wrote on Jun 18, 2008 3:33 PM:

" Ain't it funny how our court system has worked as well as it has for 220 years but now all of a sudden, can't be trusted to deal with 'terrorists'.
Out of the 770 detainees that were in Gitmo, over 500 have been released without charge. This report is by people who know alot more about it than you do.

http://brokenlives.info/ "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 18, 2008 5:33 PM:

" Dandre' it's funny I thought my two previous marriages were for ever too. I had friends and family alike stand in awe of what I put up with, the hoops I tried to jump through and how I sacrified my own interests for the person I was marriied to, because I couldn't give up, that is why one lasted thirteen years and the other seventeen which is landmarks I don't even think you have made with your one.
If you don't get how not everyone is cut out to make it work then I guess you don't understand the concept. You think because you are catholic you'll remain married well good luck on that one, their are a lot of kneelers on Sunday who were divorced on Friday. So in otherwords you will cheat/allow your wife to cheat to save your marriage, is that what you are saying, not just once buy a myriad of times all for the sake of being able to say you were married only once but cheated all you wanted to in the name of staying married. Once again Good Luck. You may not believe this but people grow apart. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 18, 2008 5:41 PM:

" Dandre' I wouldn't have invested another moment in the relatiohships I had previously because there were no reasons too. At least I am not an absentee parent as so many of you married having affairs choose to be fathers. Those who just kind of have them and move on about the other 350,000 women who might want your seed. As for my character I had 100% physical custody of my child in 1987 which was an accomplishment of it's own, so don't go slamming my character I stuck around and raised my child, unlike acoording to your hero Obama the black fathers of this world traditionaly choose not to. I notice John McCane didn't feel it necessary to address the white father abandonment speach this past father's day. So before you start screaming about the tall grass in my back yard suppose you mow your own. I've been involved in childrens life since the birth of my first niece when I was twelve years old and her mother gives me a glowing recommendation as an Uncle can you say the same. I was gainfully employed since I was 16 years old fulltime. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 18, 2008 7:06 PM:

" You know what Fred, You are right I have no business sticking my nose into your relationships. JUST LIKE, you don't have any right sticking YOUR nose in anyone elses. I simply applied YOUR standard to you and look at your reaction just like the reaction of all the people your were attacking who said 'MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS'.
One of the lesbian couples that got married yesterday has been together for over 35 years! and they are supposed to be scrutinized by people like you who need 3 tries to get it right?… wasn’t it you that referenced the quote, ‘what God joins… let no man put asunder’. That is why divorce is not recognized by the Catholic Church, you know the ‘original’ version of the Bible. The one you don’t think is Christian enough?
I don’t care about your personal life beyond I wish you God speed and good luck and that attitude has afforded me a personal life that has been pretty much free of all the turmoil that seems to have dogged you but, again, it was you that said ‘life is what you make it’…. "

BJMallory wrote on Jun 18, 2008 9:43 PM:

" Dear Lord in Heaven, Alejandro. How can anyone take you seriously when you throw John Wayne into your argument? I think you watched too many war/cowboy and indian movies as a kid, hombre.

Try reading this article, entitled "If the detainee dies, you're doing it wrong..." http://www.mcclatchydc.com/mi_comments/node/4533

A reader named Terance S. commented on this article thusly: "I remember growing up in the eighties when the Russians were the evil empire. My WWII vet grandfather explained to me why the Russians were evil. They could lock you up without giving a reason, give you no access to a real trial, and they would even torture you to make you confess. Our country was good because we wouldn't do those things. I miss my grandfather's America."

I couldn't agree more. "

BJMallory wrote on Jun 18, 2008 9:50 PM:

" To "Let's get real", since you brought it up, WHERE IS OSAMA? Didn't your man Bush vow to "get him"? He's no more trying to get Osama than you are campaining for Obama. So why don't YOU get real? Bush has had seven years to find Osama Bin Laden. When's the last time ol' Curious George even brought him up? Bush is a C-minus student who got his daddy to get him out of REAL service in Vietnam; he failed at every business venture he ever undertook (or was handed), he and his family are in bed with the Saudis, (and where did ALL the 9/11 terrorists come from...oh that's right, SAUDI ARABIA) and we are all wondering what the hell happened to our country? When you put a moron in charge, (or the moron's family/friends steal the election for him) what else can you expect? "

BJMallory wrote on Jun 18, 2008 10:02 PM:

" To Watchdog Fred - you quoted George Burns (who I LOVE btw) as saying, Too bad all the people who know how to run this country are busy running taxicabs or cutting hair."

So, are you a barber or a cab driver? "

BJMallory wrote on Jun 18, 2008 10:15 PM:

" MV what the hell are you talking about? I DO support the troops. I'm not trying to get out of ANYTHING when I say I DO NOT support the administration that put them in harm's way based on LIES. Weapons of mass distruction, remember that?? "Confuse the poor soldier"?? You are referring to our military men and women as if they are five year olds that can't think for themselves! Yet you say because I'm not on board with the "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" mindset, I'm the one disrespecting our troops? Then you bring up 9/11. Each and every one of those terrorists on the planes that day were SAUDIS. Did we hold Saudi Arabia responsible? Did we invade Saudi Arabia? Not on your life; the Bush family are too tight with them for us to do that. So we invaded Iraq instead, a country that had NOTHING to do with 9/11. No sign of catching up to the mastermind, Osama Bin Laden. As for the people in custody, we have not determined LEGALLY that they are guilty of ANYTHING! "

BJMallory wrote on Jun 18, 2008 10:28 PM:

" Hey Oracle, you keep spewing the same tired line, "if it saves ONE American life...yadda yadda yadda", to defend TORTURE! TORTURE!! Do you even HEAR yourself?

Just a thought, what if that ONE American life turns out to be the next Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, et.al.?

ALL human life should be considered precious and worth saving, as JESUS CHRIST Himself taught. Where one is born is just geography. (See the parable of the Good Samaritan) Murdering terrorists should be held accountable for their crims, for certain. But the AMERICAN WAY, unless I'm sadly mistaken, is to to ASSUME INNOCENCE UNTIL LEGALLY DETERMINING GUILT WITH A TRIAL BY A JURY OF THE ACCUSED PEERS. Or did I wake up in (gasp!) a Communist country today? Why don't YOU make that call, oh wise one? "

BJMallory wrote on Jun 18, 2008 11:00 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, why call Hillary Clinton "Hildog"? Since you refer to yourself as WatchDOG, I can't figure out if this is castigation or compliment.

As for Bill Clinton's involvement with Monica Lewinsky, I do not approve. He cheated on his wife and daughter and that was wrong. Because he did it while he was President and in our White House, it was a slap in the face to all of us in a way, but who were the real injured parties in that whole sorry mess? Hillary and Chelsea. Hillary stayed with him and kept her family intact. Maybe she did it because, despite everything, she loves him. Maybe she did it for Chelsea. We'll never know and guess what? I don't think it's our business to know. That being said, by LYING to our entire country about the reason to go to war in Iraq, Bush cheated on us all. He betrayed our trust, yet you defend him. The rights you say our veterans fought so valiently to defend, he is stripping away. Who are the injured parties of Bush's mess? WE ALL ARE. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 19, 2008 9:26 AM:

" BJMallory......eloquently said. Truth and patriotism have been redefined and changing them back is critical! "




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