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Same-sex marriage is wrong

Editor: My family and I came to California during World War II. I have always been proud of my state until now, when I hear they have let men marry men and women marry women.

We stood by and let prayer taken out of the schools and didn't do anything to stop it. In Genesis 19, it speaks about the same thing happening. In Revelations 14, it speaks about the same thing happening and God will not allow this to keep going on. He destroyed them then and He will do the same thing again.

This is an abomination to Him. It also speaks about the great City of Babylon where they were practicing the same thing. I am proud to be a wife, mother and child of God and He will destroy those that go against His will.

I have one question to ask those that commit these acts: Could the Untied States of America be called Babylon and headed for destruction?

Nathalie Ray

Hanford

(June 24, 2008)

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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 24, 2008 12:12 PM:

" Here's a not-so-new idea for ya, Ms. Ray: Separation of Church and State. It's here to stay, so you might want to accept it into your life. The USofA will only be headed for destruction because of those like yourself who are unwilling to refrain from treating your neighbors like they are second-class citizens. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:00 PM:

" Separation of Churh and State, then how about the State of California giving us taxpayers back 50% ot our taxes earmarked for the school district so we can donate it to our churches where it might truly benefit our children?
How dare you make that claim, if you were working here in our country you would be paid by the state in which you lived and paid by that same sate but you are the most vocal scholar I've ever heard regarding what's wrong with your state anc country, your remarks could hardly be considered a separation of your employment. Conflict of interest for sure in anyone who completed the 3rd grade in this country.
So which is it your scholarly knowledge or your gadar that speaks volumes fot the salvation and preservation of illicit sexual acts between adults that makes you respond so responsively to the issues? Let's watch the divorce rate for homosexuals out of all this fanfair and rushed weddings and see who is right.
The attorney's couldn't be happier about this decision they figure their business just doubled over this landmark decision, which means the lawyer's bank accounts just doubled too. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:07 PM:

" Do you think that a document stating something is suddenly right for all the wrong reasons is going to solve any problem the public has with gay or lesbian relationships? You know little about Americans if you believe that and even less about gays and lesbians. Just because the majority in Hanford is against gay and lesbian relationships doesn't make Hanford anything but part of the popular vote of the entire state of California. This was voted down by the REGISTERED VOTERS of the State of California and will again be put into it's original state in the National Election held in November. Melissa is wrong the state doesn't have to take each and every gay member by themselves to court they can overturn the vote of five desenting judges and wipe all those marriages off the books like they never even happened. All they need to do is wipe off all marriages performed for party A and party B and we are right back where we started. Many heterosexual couples are holding up or changing their wedding dates just for that reason. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:12 PM:

" I have news for you legislation by group is done often and not always in the favor of the group. I point to legislation for Veteran's as a prime example of that, one decision for all not an individual case by case basis. Nor will the reversal of this Justice decision, it will be painted with a wide brush covering all gay and lesbians in one stroke, count on it. The policy and amendment will be put in place to guarantee it will not ever be overturned again, count on it Scott.
Gay and Lesbians can be upset but by wagging the dog instead of the tail they have brought this all on theirselves. The end result of which I think they will not agree with but because of their flashing response to the issues and gay parade celebrations it will be dealt with once and for all. You think Hanford is bad, wait until this vote hits the Bible Belt and see what a backlash that brings into the mix. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:25 PM:

" You can't legislate discrimination.....sorry! "

Girl Friday wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:39 PM:

" Where California goes so goes the Nation, get use to it Nathalie this is America and just as you have the right to your views so do others
That is why we are a free Country!!!!!!!! Congrats on your life but in the same breath I congratulate the young same sex couples that were just married in Hanford and wish them the same joy and freedom "

California Native wrote on Jun 24, 2008 6:34 PM:

" I can understand your point of view Nathalie Ray. California has gone through a lot of changes since your family came here. I was born here in 1946 and have seen many changes in our once "Golden State" now called the "Welfare State" or " New Northern Mexico". I remember a person could go to a public school and all your classmates spoke english without an accent. I remember everyday pledging to our flag and not having a translator to communicate with the local corner store owner. Times where good back then. I would hate to be in school now as a child playing second to an non-english speaking foreign child and not getting my fare share of the teachers attention. It's even harder now to find a gas station that does not support Hamas or some other nut job organization over seas. California has changed and it is no longer our state or our home. It does not supprise me that our state now lacks the moral judgement and American values we were born and raised with. My sister is gay and I still love her. They are poeople too, but marrage is between a man and women! "

Yogi wrote on Jun 24, 2008 10:46 PM:

" You are right, Nathalie Ray, this country is certainly headed for destruction. It's because our Lord and Savior Christ the King said in the Bible that eating shellfish is an abomination... and judging from all those folks at the Red Lobster on Central Ave... it doesn't look good for the rest of us!

Darn those happy gays?! How dare they be so appalling as to form loving, commited relationships! Outrageous! "

scarecrow wrote on Jun 25, 2008 1:00 AM:

" Are you god to go around sending everyone to hell u lie If you say you have never done something wrong. Doesnt god forgive people. Doesnt it state in the bible that everyone should be happy. I forgot maybe we worship a different god. I know my god forgives and if you have a problem with homosexuality maybe you shouldnt live in California because nomatter how much you fight it gays will reamain becuase that's there preference. You just need to accept it. "

Beth wrote on Jun 25, 2008 3:08 AM:

" Why would anyone choose to believe in a God that "will destroy those that go against His will". What part of that message is meant to lead those that are astray into the arms of a loving God?

If Jesus were standing next to you now, would you look him in the eyes and say the same things? And what do you think his response would be?

I am a lesbian. I have nothing but sadness and love for you in my heart. I pray some day that you too find the gentle, loving relationship with God that I am blessed to embrace on a daily basis.

Peace to you. "

Kahy wrote on Jun 25, 2008 4:27 AM:

" Seperation of church & state and for good reason. "

David wrote on Jun 25, 2008 4:49 AM:

" Nicely stated California Native. This state has gone down hill over the last 20 plus years. I can agree with all that you said. Marriage is only between and man and women. If gays want to have domestic partners in a legal union, that's fine, but it should not be called marrage. These judges who made this error in judgement will be over turned in the November election. There are still enough real American California Natives still living here to see to that. In another 20 years the only ones who will be here will speak spanish and by that time "who cares"! California and American as we knew it back in the good old days will only be a memory. "

Sally L wrote on Jun 25, 2008 5:05 AM:

" This is just another bad judement by our liberal courts we have here in California. It's bad enough that our state is starting to look like a third world country and our two tree hugger Senators (Boxer and Feinstein) have done nothing but help the situation, but make it only worse. Marriage has always been between a man and a women. Not in California anymore! If the courts have there way, what's going to be next? Will this madness ever stop? We need to take back our state and correct the mistakes our politicans and judges have made over the years. Prop 187 would have saved our state and prevented this illegal immigration mess where in now. The voters in November will over turn this judgement. I would recall these judges if possible and replace them with judges with good morals and family values. "

jeff wrote on Jun 25, 2008 10:02 AM:

" Fred, who cares if they get divorced and who cares if the attorneys are happy? What does either of these things do to prove it should be illegal? Straight people get divorced everyday in this country should we make all weddings illegal? Logic doesn’t cease to work when it no longer suits your needs it either works or it doesn’t.
David, you’re right they want to call it marriage not marrage so you actually get your wish.
Sally, the judges who voted this in are Republicans so this has nothing to do with ‘Liberal Courts’.
This country is not bound to the Christian Bible, we have separation of church and state here. This country was not founded on Christian values. Your Bible is not law. Using God as a scapegoat for your bigotry is an outrage. "

Chad wrote on Jun 25, 2008 10:50 AM:

" First of all, I love how some people keep referring to the supreme court as liberal judges....The CA Supreme court is made up of conservative republican judges. Most people didn't have a problem with them til now. Another point if you would do your research, a constitutional amendment can be overturned. People also keep comparing it to other states where there are constitutional amendments. You can't compare them. Those states never had marriage equality like we do. Just because the voters approve something doesn't make it right, legal, or constitutional. Hence the comparison to interracial marriage.Also their are alot of legalities with this intiative because of the wording they used and the fact that laws were changed after the fact. So this is a unique situation. "

Amanda R wrote on Jun 25, 2008 11:00 AM:

" Can November just hurry up already so we can get marriage back to it's original man-woman state? I'm ashamed to hear what people from other states are saying about California. Maybe I'll move to Switzerland too and complain from afar...that way I can pretend at least to not be a Californian. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 25, 2008 11:42 AM:

" Jeff,
If you paid attention to what other people say instead of staying focused on your own biased opinions, you would relize Melissa and several other openly gay people on here point to divorce rates at 50% by heterosexual people. I just think if will be interesting to see if that's any better in five or ten years when the new wears off of this getting married Gay thing is over and done with. Many heterosexual marriages fell apart after years of living together, so let's see if that holds true in the Gay society?
A piece of paper may legally bind but it doesn't physically bind anything, that is why divorce was created.
There is one blogger on here who is convinced he can sin on Friday and Saturday night and commit adultry as long as on Sunday he confesses it and divorce doesn't happen. I have news for him a cheater is a cheater and eventually no woman wants to be involved with a cheater regardless of faith or repenting their sins. It isn't really repenting if you continue to do it. It's called a mistake, not mistakes. "

gees..... wrote on Jun 25, 2008 12:00 PM:

" Click your heels Dorty and Toto we in for a bumpy ride! ......God will not allow this to keep going on. He destroyed them then and He will do the same thing again.
Watch for falling houses! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 25, 2008 12:04 PM:

" Jeff,
People are warned daily about their diets and their health and continue not to listen. So we are a nation of non-listeners, so continue on your quest marry your girlfriend as you say you will and let by gones be by gones and see if there is not a price to be paid for inaction as well as action.
I love the way you people who don't have God in your life continually put those of us who do down. There must be a jealousy of some type that provokes that response from all you atheist?

We profess this separation of Church and State, yet every Congress and Senate open their business with a prayer. Our Money says: In God We Trust, our allegiance is to one nation Under God. Schools are now and have for quite some time been used as a place of worship until permanent facilities can be built. The only thing being separated is those who believe from those who do not believe in God. Wake up people when you are in trouble you don't pray to Atheist for your answers, you pray to God. "

Dandre wrote on Jun 25, 2008 12:29 PM:

" Yea, fred you are an expert on divorce and gays have every right to be as wrong as you were. "

jeff wrote on Jun 25, 2008 1:23 PM:

" Fred, what in the world are you talking about? I am paying attention to exactly what you said and your point is meaningless. So what if people end up getting divorced? People already get divorced this has no impact on the decision that was made. All of your points about God on our money etc were added after the fact. Nothing was founded that way. Look at these posts; you don’t see religious followers putting Atheists down? Look at your own post for that matter. Does that make you jealous somehow? When I’m having some sort of trouble I do not pray to God Fred. I don’t say “Thank God’ when something good happens and I don’t say “Bless you” when someone sneezes. What does your comment about my girlfriend even mean? Are you now saying it’s wrong to marry anyone? “see if there is not a price to be paid for inaction as well as action.” I guess you think it’s better to just never do anything? You ramble on and on, you change your view point’s daily to fit your circular logic. Try and use some cohesiveness in your rants. "

to Jeff wrote on Jun 25, 2008 1:47 PM:

" Why not stick to the issue rather than picking out a spelling error. If you check your own work, it has many grammar errors. And I know that my various posts have also had errors, but I was still sticking to the point. Why do so many of us "hate-mongers" despise a "gay" marriage, but yet turn the other cheek and offer some formal recognition of the other lifestyle? I am just so upset that something with so much meaning as "marriage" is now being convulted. Get a significant other contract, or something similarly phrased, but not a marriage liscense. I don't see you proposing allowing believers of other faiths to be married to more than one spouse as some religions allow, but are all for "gay" marriages, which the majority of the major religions do not permit. I am for everyone to be happy, but there does need to some lines that are not crossed, i.e. a serial killer may get joy out of murdering his victims, but I don't think that it should be lawful for him to have his pursuit of happiness. "

jeff wrote on Jun 25, 2008 3:20 PM:

" to Jeff, why don’t I stick to the issues? I seem to read a lot more in my post than your ability to spell the word marriage. You should try reading all the other letters that exist around the part where I addressed you. What other formal recognition has been offered? The only thing they had offered to them didn’t provide all the rights straight people enjoy. I don’t know of a large movement of religious people pushing for plural marriages but if it comes along I’m completely fine with that. Whatever consenting adults wish to do with each other is OK with me. Comparing 2 people in love getting married with a serial killer is absurd. The person being killed doesn’t consent to the action plus you can easily see the negative consequence of being murdered by someone whereas 2 people who marry has no visual negative consequences and only perceived (Imaginary) negative consequences. You and the rest of the opponents have yet to demonstrate how letting gay people marry does anything to infringe on your civil liberties. The only error I see is when I pasted your misspelling of the word marriage which isn’t a grammar mistake. "

Evil Spoter wrote on Jun 25, 2008 4:11 PM:

" Yogi, there is a difference in shelfish and homosexuality. Eating "unclean" things, like shelfish, is an abomination to "man". I think science will back up that if you ate only the items listed as unclean in the Bible, you would be unhealthy. Its not good for you. The abomination is to YOU. Being homosexual however, is an abomination to God. There is a vast difference here, and you'd be wise to study out. Don't pick out your favorite little snipets and quote them to suit your own opiion, or twist them to ridicule others. Read it as a whole and see what it says. "

dose wrote on Jun 25, 2008 4:42 PM:

" The bible says that we should stone unruly children before the town council, so when are we going to start doing that.

I look forward to hearing from Watchdog fred, AmandaR, SallyL, and yogi about when the stoning's should begin. "

Amanda R wrote on Jun 25, 2008 6:50 PM:

" Dose: Quote me the scripture that says this. "

Evil Spotter wrote on Jun 25, 2008 6:58 PM:

" Dose, why don't you back up what you are saying about "stoning unruly children" and give chapter and verse. Are you taking something out of context? Or, just maybe you're the one who is "stoned". "

Jared wrote on Jun 26, 2008 7:34 AM:

" It's one's (idiotic) opinion that gay marriage is wrong, but I'm sick and tired of people hiding behind their bible to justify their hatred toward other people. There's plenty of things you do in your day-to-day life that go against the bible. How do I know? BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS IN THE BIBLE THAT CONTRADICT OTHER THINGS! Gay people are real people. California has become a greater state because of this legalization. It doesn't change the fact that I live in one of the most conservative, close-minded and uneducated areas of this state, but at least I know that California - as a whole - has made a great decision. You're filled with hate. Be a responsible human being and accept people for who they are and accept the fact that this has allowed gay people to be in relationships like straight people. Keep your hatred to yourself and please remove your discriminatory, red "stick figure man + stick figure woman = marriage" bumper sticker from your car. It's meaningless now. Oh... and God Bless California. "

Amanda R wrote on Jun 26, 2008 9:31 AM:

" Jared, where might I find one of these "stick figure" bumper stickers? "

to jeff wrote on Jun 26, 2008 9:37 AM:

" First of all Jeff, you are not responding to the person who mispelled marriage, but rather someone who disagrees with you narrow mindedness. Here is the Grammar error that I was referring to, copied straight from your post. "People already get divorced this has no impact on the decision that was made". Where is the comma? This sentence is gramatically incorrect, as I believe punctuation is part of grammar. Your bit about consent and murder is wrong, for apparently you don't follow all news, as in the case in Germany where an individual got consent on-line to kill and eat another individual. But guess what, he is still being tried for murder, but under your counterpoint he should be set free. Since I am not in need of anything other than marriage, I am not pushing for equal rights for non-conventional couplings. But for those that are, then work with your legislators to get bills passed that afford you those rights, but just don't ask for it to be termed "marriage" becuase it doesn't met with the current definition of "marriage". Stick to the subject and forget about spelling and puntuation. "

to jared wrote on Jun 26, 2008 9:46 AM:

" Jared, why is everyone else's opinion idiotic? Who made you God to make this decision? I see more understanding from the people that are against gay marriage than those who approve it. I personally have never attacked the gay people, only what they have done to mock the institution of marriage. Many posts I have mentioned that they should have equal rights for health coverage, suvivor benefits, etc, but just call it something other than marriage. By calling it marriage they (the gay people) are insulting me and my beliefs, but then I guess that is okay? You want to call the other person the significant other, fine, but how do you call one husband and the other wife, when both are of the same gender? The minority has no right to force their beliefs on the majority, yet that is what is happening to me. "

dose wrote on Jun 26, 2008 10:53 AM:

" Deuteronomy 21:18-21:
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear. "

dose wrote on Jun 26, 2008 10:53 AM:

" So AmandaR and EvilSpotter when are we going to start stoning children since apparently you do everything the bible tells you. "

Get Over It wrote on Jun 26, 2008 10:57 AM:

" With time, comes change. Might as well get used to it or you're going to be living a mighty sour life being angry about all that is coming about. We're in the United States, what happened to the sense of Freedom we're aloud? I understand your point of view entirely, although i'm not religious and don't have much background wtihin that sense. What are these individuals doing that so greatly affects your life? Live yours, and let them live theirs. "

April wrote on Jun 26, 2008 11:07 AM:

" There are two different types of weddings. There is a Civil Wedding which requires a certificate from the court (Marriage license) for the state to recognize a marriage and a religious wedding, for obviously religious reasons. The fact that California now recongnizes Civil weddings between same-sex partners has nothing to do with the bible because smart men years ago decided it was the right move to seperate our church from state. If you don't support it fine, but I hope your children aren't as narrow-minded because thankfully they are our future and recognize not to discriminate against people, even ones as stubborn as yourself. If you have the right to make one woman miserable for the rest of their life by marriage everyone should. "

jeff wrote on Jun 26, 2008 11:46 AM:

" to jeff, OK you got me on the comma, we will discuss that in a minute. Your German example is not in America so again no bearing on what is happening here. By the way I am very aware of the story you are referring to and I think Armin Meiwes should not have been convicted of murder, also, my example was of people who do not consent to being killed. Here Bernd Jürgen Brandes consented to being killed and was an active participant in the killing. You’ve stated this obvious difference in your own post so how it eluded you is something I am failing to recognize.
Can you explain to me, how granting rights to people is narrow minded? “Stick to the subject and forget about spelling and puntuation. [sic]" Wow you are a hypocrite. If you really believe this why do you feel it is justifiable for you to try to point out grammar errors in my posts? By the way your response is littered with errors, am I off topic again? "

Amanda R wrote on Jun 26, 2008 3:07 PM:

" Dose, study the Old Testament vs. the New Testament then get back to me on the subject of stoning children. You are taking that scripture out of context. "

dose wrote on Jun 26, 2008 3:57 PM:

" To AmandaR:

You're just mad cuz you got pwned, but I appreciate you admiting that you only follow the part's of the bible you agree with and disregad the one's you don't. "

dose wrote on Jun 26, 2008 3:59 PM:

" To AmandaR:

Since you asked me to back up my statement, I would like you to do the same. Prove that I was taking those words out of context, I bet you can't do it. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 26, 2008 5:25 PM:

" Alejandro you know how Dandre' professesses to do the research and how he never gets it wrong? I wonder how he missed this little tidbit by the greatest president in the 20th century?

In 1996, President Clinton signed into law the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which, for federal purposes, defined marraige as "only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife" (1 U.S.C. § 7). DOMA further provided that "No State, territory, or possession of the United States, or Indian tribe, shall be required to give effect to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State, territory, possession, or tribe respecting a relationship between persons of the same sex that is treated as a marriage under the laws of such other State, territory, possession, or tribe, or a right or claim arising from such relationship"

So much for other states having to obide by this new California Justice of the Supreme State ruling, so all these marriages will be legally unrecognized thanks to Bill Clinton. This is Federal Law which the states must abide by. "

Jared wrote on Jun 26, 2008 5:34 PM:

" To "to jared": You say you see more understanding from the anti-gay marriage people. What?! When you can't accept people for who they are and the rights they deserve, the understanding stops there, so don't talk to me about understanding or lack thereof. Who has done more to "mock the institution of marriage", gay people who want marriage, or straight people who get divorced by the thousands each year. Face it, the institution of marriage has been long gone when statistics show that 50% of all marriages end in divorce, which I believe we are also told is a sin. And how are the gay people insulting you? Why can't you just have your marriage, your benefits and your life and stop being concerned by others. And just because gay people can't have the labels of "husband" and "wife", their rights have to be swept away? (By the way "partner" is perfectly fine"). And who of the minority is forcing their beliefs on you? Buddhists don't make you worship Buddha, Jewish people don't make you celebrate Yom Kippur. Gay people don't force you to marry the same sex. Just accept it. "

mitchell wrote on Jun 26, 2008 7:47 PM:

" Reading most of the comments are a prime example of why I left Hanford and moved to San Diego. I'm ashamed by your absolute lack of acceptance of others. Your use of god as an excuse to be discriminator is appalling. Why don't you small minded idiots open up to the fact that there is a large world outside of yours in which people have different ideas, ways of life, thoughts and religious beliefs. Try going back to the 60's and replacing the "gay" in marriage with "mixed race". Were you just as offended then? Did you try to find passages of scripture to help justify your bigotry then? Try talking to people that are different from you. Maybe afterwards you'll come to realize that EVERYBODY deserves civil rights.

This country was founded by those fleeing religious persecution (remember, Watchdog Fred?). Good to see that you are trying to use your religion to persecute others.

Hey moderator. Doesn't this whole Opinion column count as a religious attack (or should I say an attack by religion) or is that ok? "

Amanda R wrote on Jun 26, 2008 9:02 PM:

" Dose, I'm mad because you have horrible grammar and spelling. Read these two articles: http://www.natreformassn.org/statesman/03/stndisob.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-old-new-testaments.html. They say it better than I could in 200 words. The first one is in response to Deuteronomy 21:18-21 and the second is about the Old Testament-New Testament relationship. I never once "admitted" to only following parts or the Bible, but I don't atone for my sins in the old ways since Jesus came and paid the ultimate sacrifice for those sins. "

Evil Spotter wrote on Jun 27, 2008 9:11 AM:

" Dose, you said 'the bible says to stone unruly children...so when are we going to start doing that'. After being asked, you go on to quote the Bible (Good job! You should read it more, you might learn something), and this shows a vast difference between what you 'made up', and what the Bible says. 'Unruly children' are not mentioned in the Bible. The crimes and evidence against the son are stubborn, rebellious, glutton, and drunkard. Are these acts of your average 3rd grader? The bible is clearly talking about at least an older teen, an adult who understands the consequences of his actions. The word 'stubborn' means someone who is unchanging in his resistance to authority. One who had multiple warnings to change. The word 'rebellious' literally means to 'strike or lash', meaning this 'son' (who's age is unknown) was beating his parents. He certainly was no misbehaving child as you imply. This is an adult who is going to answer for his crimes. No, we are not in favor of stoning our children for not taking out the trash, missing curfew, or not making their bed. That's just a figment of your imagination. "

DAUGHTER OF THE KING wrote on Jun 27, 2008 9:40 AM:

" WHAT A SHAMEFUL WORLD WE ARE LIVING IN TODAY. IT JUST SEEMS LIKE WE ARE LIVING IN A "SODOM AND GOMORRAH" ALL OVER AGAIN. SO BEWARE OF WHAT IS TO COME BECAUSE JESUS IS COMING SOON, PEOPLE BE READY!!!!!!!!!! "

to Jared wrote on Jun 27, 2008 10:49 AM:

" Obviously you only read the parts of my posts that you wish to. I have never been off topic talking about religions forcing their opinions upon me. This is all about marriage and its meaning. I have never been against gays, or trying to deny them any rights, except for marriage, which by definition is between a man and a woman. Since this is not happening, then I am only stating my opinion that they should not be allowed to get a marriage license. I have stated, and will state again, and hopefully you will read it this time. I am all for them being allowed to have their insurance cover whomever they wish, to have the right to name their suvivor's, etc. I am not against them having legal rights, only against a marriage license, please call it something else out of respect of the majority of people's definition, including Buddhist, Jew, Muslims, Wicans, Catholics, Christians, and perhaps even athiest. Now off subject, I would also like to see the same rights that full time employees enjoy offered (perhaps prorated) to part time employees. Give equal rights to all. "

CJ wrote on Jun 27, 2008 2:14 PM:

" GOSH, that is fine to believe in what you want , whatever. TOO bad that these crazy religious people can't have an open mind to anyone else who believes differently from what you do. Who cares if gay people want to marry?> That is their choice. GET of OFF the religious crap , will you? You are all just judgemental and only see things from your point of view. This is the USA. You are not going to agree with Everything because your Religious point of views make you ALL so Self Rightous . Go ahead and moan and groan about it, Gay People want to get married, then so be it .What is it to you ? Can't get over your Religious teachings make you all so very narrow minded and IGNORANT. Teach your children love, and acceptance. NOT hate and intolerance. "

Angel wrote on Jun 27, 2008 3:51 PM:

" Perhaps if you are against gays you should move. I hear Iran likes to hang them in public. Maybe you belong there, don't religious extremists like each other . "?" "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 28, 2008 1:39 AM:

" Angel, that isn't a nice thing to say to someone, that would be like me telling you your sisterhood was started in Greenwich Village in New York, I hear them calling your name. Nice sound bite but doesn't hold water. "

Melissa wrote on Jun 28, 2008 2:01 AM:

" This country is cruel to our community of lgbtq and trans. So I stand on the belief that we are born this way because I cannot even begin to think someone would want to live with this hate. I watch 20/20 tonight about trans kids and saw a girl about 6 years old she was male to female. at the age of six who could choose that? It is an internal power that makes you feel trapped in the wrong body. I was in 1st grade when I knew I was different. I was scared, I couldn't look at girls out of fear that they would think i was checking them out. I have known people die from hate crimes, This isn't a god issue. It is a people issue and as americans who are so proud of our rights and fight for them...LGBTQ and trans people are no less entitled to all libirities granted to Americans from our government. I don't need to be married in a church...I don't need a minister....I just need to be an equal american Until then We Fight. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 28, 2008 2:14 AM:

" Dandre' I can't believ this comment:

" Yea, fred you are an expert on divorce and gays have every right to be as wrong as you were. "


My two ex-wives and my son weren't as upset at the two divorces as you were, In fact I speak to my son two to four times a week since he lives in Louisville and my current wife was talking to my seond wife on the phone today. What is your problem with my two divorces they were legal actions just like marriage is, now you are gonna play hypocrit and say you don't have to honor your mother and father but by darn you better not get divorced.
You pick out what you want to believe in your catholic religion and then you throw away everything else, is that what the Nuns taught you? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 28, 2008 2:23 AM:

" Dandre' really upset me so I am gonna throw this out to the ladies, would you rather have a bad marriage or the stigma of divorce? Would you rather have a man who beat you, cheated on you and was a drunkard or be divorced?
Now for the guys when you come home and your wife's boyfriend is climbing up the back wall of your apartment to his cousins apartment upstairs do you turn trhe other cheek? Then two weeks later she comes home after agreeing to help pay for my dentures on the day I had four teeth pulled and my jaws looked like I was sucking on giant jaw breakers, swings the door open and says I want a divorce, I am leaving tonight. Do you put up with the deceipt and cheating for the sake of your child or do you end it and demonstrate to your son that the normal man does not put up with this behavior. I would rather teach my son to find happiness and be monogamous in a relationship than to teach him to cheat or be cheated on. What say you ladies and gentleman? "

Scott Tucker dont you know wrote on Jun 28, 2008 6:15 AM:

" The US constitution does not talk about separtation of church and state as you imply. What the constitution does is make sure the gov't. will not impose a certain religion ON US or stop us from exercising our chosen religion. The phrase separation of church and state is NOT IN THE CONSTITUTION.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. It has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court. "

Unatural Marriages wrote on Jun 28, 2008 4:12 PM:

" My wife and I came to California in the early 1970's. We raised three children who are now grown, we loved California. We have become very disillusioned with the direction the state has taken. California has become a very liberal state. We of course voted against same sex marriage because it is an abomination to God. Now some Liberal Judge put into place what 75% of California citizens are apposed to. Do you think there is any relationship between the judge reversing the will of the people and the unusual dry lightening storms that set the state burning? II Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. "

Dan wrote on Jun 28, 2008 8:29 PM:

" Keep on with the GOOD FIGHT. We need people to stand up for what in biblicaly true in this State. Many people don't understand how important marriage is between a man and a Women for the foundation of the family and society and how Homsexual marriage can harm that. "

Christiangal wrote on Jun 29, 2008 12:21 AM:

" God Bless you everyone!!! To those who are for it even if you don't believe in my God, He still loves you and is here if you decide to turn from the evil the devil has blinded you with. To all my fellow Christians, God Bless you and I pray you don't let the devil turn any bitterness remember these people have been blinded by the lying devil his only purpose is to steal, kill, and destroy. Our fighting should be on our knees praying even for those who go against us and God. For He and only He is the only one with the last say. For Him to have mercy, Its wrong but remember do not be afraid for these things must come before His Second Coming. I pray for all of you that you will open up your hearts and minds and let Him in, God Bless you all........... "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 29, 2008 5:30 AM:

" Jeff,
The point being my simple friend is that who gets law through, lawyers who benefits most by this change of heart of the Justices, lawyers. We keep saying we aren't going to respnd to special interest groups anymore, what do you call this if it isan't a special interest group, it certainly isn't the majority of Californians that has already been proven.
I honestly don't think Jeff your future wife is a woman this topic is just to near and dear to your principled heart and it is beginning to show.
You should really take the time to read some of your own blogs and you will see the bigotry you accuse everyone else of having.
You don't want us to force rules, laws or anything else down your throat well please we don't want your idea of rule or law forced down ours either. Yes you have provoked the electorate that put this original decision down and in November the price will be paid by those Justices and the GLBTS Community. You want to force feed a lifestyle to us that we don't approve of, that's no different than us telling you it's wrong. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 29, 2008 5:37 AM:

" Jeff,
For all of you who scream separation of Church and State, I remind you all childrens day's are began with a pledge to allegiance under God. All Senates and Congressional matters are began with a prayer for guidance. The President of the United States has stated he prays on issues he decides on, our very own City Council always has Clergy present at their City Council Meetings. You cannot wish it or will it away, it's already been tried and failed. Atheist have challenged the right of children to pledge allegiance Under God in our schools and have lost miserably. You did get prayer band from school, but let me ask you is that child in class with their head bowed praying or just tired? You can try and legislate it but you can't stop it from happening. First it is the separation you fight for then it is the death and destruction you seek. Where does it stop your war on Christ? Back off and allow us our rights then we might begin to consider yours Jeff. First it's about marriage and rights, now it's about parades. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 29, 2008 5:45 AM:

" Jeff,
In other blogs you accuse me of not answering your questions, did I answer enogh of them this time to suit you? I told you before like the colors in our flag, I don't run, I'm easy to find all you have to do is clear that prejudiced vision of yours and look for me.
The only time you have anything to say positive is when everyone else considers it negative. You don't want to Separate Church and State you want to try and separate God from all of us God fearing people who happen to believe in him.
It's just like this Gay and Lesbian marriage thing it keeps snow balling, first all you want is marriage, then rights, now parades, what's next a transvestite on the dollar bill and replace George Washington, it is getting ridiculous. Perhaps you wish us to bow down to you and sacrifice lambs in your honor, then you might be happy. Forget it buddy I'm not forsaking Jesus Christ our Lord for you or anyone else. Wake up Jeff, you do protest too much. People see through your vail of innocence and into eyes of evil. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 29, 2008 5:53 AM:

" Jeff,
I don't need rights shoved down my throat when I placed my own butt in harms way to fight for them. When I complain there is usually valid reason for it with concerns for the entire community not some select group with a special interest at heart. Perhaps if the GLBT community wasn't trying to throw this Justice decision in our face we would be more accepting of it. But their behavior in these blogs and in Gay Pride Parades are doing just the opposite, it is convincing more and more of the voting public that this is not the correct way to proceed. Blacks didn't throw it in anyone's face when they received civil rights, mixed marriage couples didn't throw it in peoples faces when that opposition was over come. Jeff, are you starting to see a difference here yet? This is still We The People, not you the GLBT! Hitler thought he had a great plan too, but when he became too agressive what happened to him? Stalin & that Italian guy who kept switching sides he too thought he had the best plan. Wrong! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 29, 2008 6:02 AM:

" Jeff,
As I recall wasn't it Adolph Hitler who believed in parading his strength down the military corridor in his country and then Russia did the same thing during it's realm of dominance or what they thought was dominance? I see no other difference, all instances were a show of force no different than the Gay and Lesbian crowd supporting a 1969 riot that broke out in New York City. It's all to reflect violent instances that occured in their rush to judgement. In fact that infamous group everyone likes to throw out here from time to time the KKK didn't they also parade and demonstrate their power in their era of dominance. Oh yeah didn't they also burn crosses thumbing their nose at religious beliefs? Is that what the GLBT is after, that fear factor across the country and the world? Just wanted to point out some factors that have occured in this and other countries in power struggles, which is basically what this has evolved in to. GLBT don't want a lifestyle forced upon them but they want to force theirs on us. Does that hardly seem fair? "

Nichole Contente wrote on Jun 29, 2008 7:24 AM:

" I am a Christian also, However, God put us here on earth to make our own decisions with our lives. Do I believe that it is wrong? Yes. But I think that this is a FREE country, for people to make their own decisions on their happiness. This isn't hurting anyone. God loved everyone, he hung around prostitutes and tax collectors. He showed his love to his people through his actions. We need to quit isolating the gay community. They need to be accepted and loved just like everyone else. This is their ordeal with God, not the straight community.
Remember, removed the plank from your own eye before you try to remove the speck from another.
We are not here to judge others, just serve our God. My God does not have to be your God, and I won't hate you for it, nor judge you upon it. BE OPEN MINDED, and pass it on! "

No Separation wrote on Jun 29, 2008 9:31 AM:

" The only place separation of Church & State was written was in the Communist Manifesto. The United States of America was founded on Freedom of Religion, not state sanctioned religion like in England Homosexual marriage has never been ok in Gods eyes. Read the Authorized Kings James Bible and you will see this country will be judged for its sodomy. Romans 1:18-32 and Luke 17:28": Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; "29": But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 29, 2008 11:59 AM:

" Dear "Scott Tucker dont you know": Thanks for the history lesson. Sharing knowledge is always a good thing.

Now, let's have another look at my original comment.

"Here's a not-so-new idea for ya, Ms. Ray: Separation of Church and State. It's here to stay, so you might want to accept it into your life. The USofA will only be headed for destruction because of those like yourself who are unwilling to refrain from treating your neighbors like they are second-class citizens."

Nowhere in my comment did I imply that the phrase "separation of church and state" can be found in the Constitution. The phrase is, however, one of the principles that makes the United States what it is and has shaped our nation from its very beginnings. I am all for people choosing their own belief systems.

I agree completely with your comment and really don't understand what your point is in reference to my original comment. Religion is something that we can all choose (or choose not) to freely participate in. People can choose to worship Jesus or a gummi-worm. We agree that our Constitution grants us this right. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 29, 2008 12:01 PM:

" "Do you think there is any relationship between the judge reversing the will of the people and the unusual dry lightening storms that set the state burning?"

No, I do not. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jun 29, 2008 5:05 PM:

" Scott Tucker once again shows us exactly his point of view:

"People can choose to worship Jesus or a gummi-worm."

What if I say that people can choose to live in Switzerland or a sewer, right Scott?

What is the difference?

Snide metaphors bespeak elitism anyway one tries to disguise it.

Happy vacation again, Scott! "

R wrote on Jun 29, 2008 8:37 PM:

" Once again, we are lowering our standards in this country. What type of perverted behavior will we be expected to accept next?? "

Lemoore resident wrote on Jun 29, 2008 9:32 PM:

" I think this blog is crazy. I for one could care less about same sex marriages. It wouldn't work for me but if it works for someone else I say do what makes you happy. I will never say I am completely up on the bible but it says man with woman not same sex (maybe not exactly that way but you know what I mean). It also says do not commit adultry, but people do it all the time. I feel everyone has the right to be happy, as long as it isn't causing direct harm to someone else. I don't care if the sex matches or the color doesn't. Just because it doesn't work for me doesn't mean it won't work for someone else. I do agree with Watchdog Fred about what he said about divorces. I lived in a house where my parents were unhappy with each other and I was miserable. I would would have been much happier if they had divorced. We don't have the right to judge someone for their lifestyle because we all sin. "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" "

jeff wrote on Jun 29, 2008 10:30 PM:

" Fred, “I remind you all childrens day's are began with a pledge to allegiance under God” not when I went to Hanford High. I guess they’ve changed some things. “All Senates and Congressional matters are began with a prayer” no, that is a completely false statement. “Atheist have challenged the right of children to pledge allegiance Under God in our schools and have lost miserably” is that so, than what is this article about? http://tulipchristian.blogspot.com/2005/09/pledge-of-allegiance-thrown-out-again.html “In other blogs you accuse me of not answering your questions, did I answer enogh of them this time to suit you?” No you haven’t because I never asked you any questions that would lead to these false statements. You still as of yet have failed to show how this ruling has any affect on you or your own civil liberties. “Wake up Jeff, you do protest too much.” this coming from the guy who just posted five comments? “As I recall wasn't it Adolph Hitler who believed in parading his strength down the military corridor” you mean like this? http://illinoischristianevents.wordpress.com/2007/05/14/family-christian-parade/ "

FaithHopeCharity wrote on Jun 29, 2008 11:50 PM:

" Can anyone tell me where the verse is about the fight isnt between flesh and blood but between the spirits of darkness? I am unsure just how it goes but it seems we need to remember that... God Bless.... "

simonizr wrote on Jun 30, 2008 7:37 AM:

" Dear Miss Ray,
Here is a letter from me. It hot in hell. The food is ironicly undercooked. I have to listen to ABBA's greatest hits and read your letters.

It reminds me of the term WWJD. Well first he would not condem people to hell via electronic post on th HS web site.

The best thing to do about the gay virus and Babylon is to lock your doors at home and close your blinds. The big wide world can be scarry. "

O. G. wrote on Jun 30, 2008 9:55 AM:

" That verse you're looking for is found in Ephesians 6:12
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." "

Mary wrote on Jun 30, 2008 4:11 PM:

" Romans 1:18 ...

"For the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against the irreligious and perverse spirit of men who, in this perversity of theirs, hinder the truth."

... and Romans 1:24 ...

"In consequence, God delivered them up in their lusts to unclean practices; they engaged in the mutual degradation of their bodies."

"... talk is useless ... " "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 30, 2008 8:04 PM:

" Jeff - you atheist may think you have the strong hold on government but here is proof point in fact that you do not:

Opening Prayer
To view a prayer from a previous day of House proceedings, please select a month and year from the search menu on the left.

06/26/2008
Reverend Daniel P. Coughlin
Lord, by Your power and grace–filled ways, that touch us humanly, create a future of promise for this country. In Congress, create new settings of hope where Your kingdom of realized truth and promised justice may become more apparent in all its saving power.

May Members of the House of Representatives face the challenges of the present and the future with confidence in You and in the people. Help them, Lord, never to lose heart in the face of resistance, adversity and scandal.

Enable them to overcome every separation between faith and life and reject every false dichotomy of faith and expediency. Thus may they extend Your reign of peace and love and give You glory now and forever.

Amen.

An actual prayer in Congress, imagine that Sparky? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 30, 2008 8:14 PM:

" Jeff - everything has a beginning kind sir.
1887 George T. Balch, a New York City kindergarten teacher, writes the handbook Methods of Teaching Patriotism in the Public Schools. His campaign includes the placing of US flags in all public schools, as well as the presentation of tiny US flags to student awarded for good citizenship. He promoted the use of the flag as a tool in the Americanization of foreigners.
1990 Scot M. Guenter, PhDThe American Flag, 1777-1924
1942
Dec. 22 Congress amends the Flag Code, substituting the original straight arm salute with the current salute of "the right hand over the heart. Congress apparently was embarrassed by the similarity between the original Flag salute and the Nazi salute."
The code now reads "The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag... should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.
1992 John W. Baer, D.A., M.B.A.
A middle. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 30, 2008 8:20 PM:

" Jeff - more about the pledge of allegiance:
1954
June 14 Congress considers three variations of the "under God" phrase:
"One Nation under God,"
"One Nation, under God," and
"One Nation indivisible under God."
Congress accepts variation #1 based on a recommendation from the Library of Congress, which states, "Since the basic idea is a Nation founded on a belief in God, there would seem to be no reason for the comma after Nation."
1992 John W. Baer, DA, MBA.
2005
Sep. 14 Federal Judge Lawrence Karlton of the Eastern District of California ruled in favor of Michael Newdow that it was unconstitutional to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools because of its inclusion of the phrase "under God."
Sep. 14, 2005 Associated Press
2007
2005
Sep. 29 House Concurrent Resolution 245 expressing the sense of Congress that the United States Supreme Court should speedily find the use of the Pledge of Allegiance in schools to be consistent with the Constitution of the United States passed 383-31.

Continued this isn't over with as of yet young sir. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 30, 2008 8:25 PM:

" Jeff - more about the pledge of allegiance:
2007
Jan. 29 Representative Todd Akin (R-MO) introduces the 2007 Pledge Protection Act (H. R. 699) to the first session of the 110th Congress. The bill is referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary, and then to the Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties, where, as of Apr. 19, 2007, it awaits review. This time line was last updated on 6/30/2008, the Feds may have a lot to say before this is over and done with once again a minority can't stand a Christian tradition to prevail.
Check your facts and get bac k to me. Once again, proof positive you talk before you research.
If you don't think that the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't exist today you need to watch Kopi on KMPH TV-26 as he visits schools as they participate in the pledge of allegiance. Once again you don't have your doctrine in place, and you say it is I who is the conclusion jumper, think again Jeff, how does it feel with that egg all over your face? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 30, 2008 8:31 PM:

" Jeff - meet Reverend Black the Chaplain for the United States Senate:

Duties of the Senate Chaplain

In addition to opening the Senate each day in prayer, Chaplain Black’s duties include counseling and spiritual care for the Senators, their families and their staffs, a combined constituency of six thousand people. Chaplain Black’s days are filled with meeting Senators about spiritual and moral issues, assisting Senators’ staffs with research on theological and biblical questions, teaching Senate Bible study groups, encouraging such groups as the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast, and facilitating discussion and reflection small groups among Senators and staff.
In order to stay informed of the needs of the Senate community, Chaplain Black maintains a program with a volunteer liaison in each office to assist him. A member of his staff directs this program.
This is why it is allowed, no incouraged:
The Office of the Chaplain is nonpartisan, nonpolitical, and nonsectarian.

So is that shoe fitting pretty tight in your mouth right about now Jeff?

Who looks deficient in fact at this point my friend? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 30, 2008 8:36 PM:

" Jeff - this isn't Russia yet my friend, we still practice our worship in the proper way in the proper manner. Don't ever think that the President of the United States doesn't also have help from the Lord above in his decisions too.

Perhaps you and the History Teacher from Switzerland can communicate some classes for you to understand separation doesn't mean deletion.

Jeff, before you comment about these many and lenghthy blogs it is you who challanged my information, I simply responded to your challenge with fact. You doubt the sources just punch in Senate and Religion in Wikepedia or Congress and Religion for the United States Congress. If you'd like I can check on the State level if you'd like for you? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 30, 2008 8:45 PM:

" To Jeff - here I saved you the trouble once again of having to use your resourceful ability to find the truth:
It is an honor and privilege to serve as the Chaplain of the California State Senate for the 2007-2008 legislative session. I am the forty-seventh individual to serve as Senate Chaplain since the office began in 1897. Please let me explain a little of what the Senate Chaplain does.
The tradition of legislative chaplains dates to the beginning of the Republic when chaplains began serving Congress. Both houses of our state Legislature - the Senate and the Assembly - appoint a chaplain for each legislative term.
The Senate Chaplain is responsible for serving the spiritual and pastoral needs of California's 40 senators, their families and the Senate staff, and to serve as the pastor representing the Senate at official occasions when called upon, for example at a memorial service for CalTrans workers killed in the line of duty, and at the funeral and graveside services of U.S. Rep. Robert Matsui of Sacramento in 2005.
The Chaplain opens each Senate floor session with prayer, typically on Monday and Thursday mornings. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 30, 2008 8:49 PM:

" To Jeff - here I saved you the trouble once again of having to use your resourceful ability to find the truth: (Continued)
The prayers are offered to God on behalf of the Senate in recognition that our freedom and our abundance are gifts from God. The prayers are reminders that we are called to serve all of God's Creation and, that as servants of the people of California, we have particular responsibilities to be stewards of this great land and guardians of our people.
Because our state is so richly diverse, with virtually every religious tradition on Earth represented in California, the prayers are non-sectarian in tone and content. I write most of the prayers, but from time-to-time I offer prayers from other traditions, including from the Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist and Christian faiths. Guest chaplains are also invited from time-to-time to offer prayers in their own tradition. All of the prayers are recorded in the Senate Daily Journal and on-line at the website.
The Chaplain does not take positions on specific legislation, but can assist senators in locating appropriate moral and ethical resources from a variety of perspectives.
Continued "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 30, 2008 8:51 PM:

" To Jeff - here I saved you the trouble once again of having to use your resourceful ability to find the truth: (Continued)
Richardson left The Bee in 1997 to enroll in the Episcopal seminary in Berkeley (the Church Divinity School of the Pacific) where he earned a Masters of Divinity degree in 2000. Richardson was ordained to the Episcopal priesthood in January 2001.
You can reach him at SenateChaplain@gmail.com.
Does this appropriately answer your questions? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 30, 2008 8:54 PM:

" To Jeff - Oh and by the time a person gets to Hanford High he shouldn't have to be led in the pledge of allegiance it should come natural by then. Perhaps that is why it isn't mandantory?
Prayer isn't allowed in school but I lowered my head and said many when taking tests in the old school you could take pride in that was similar to Lemoore's fine High School. A carpenter told me that when they knocked down the school it was harder to do than the new one would be to knock down because it was built better. "

Mr. Truth wrote on Jun 30, 2008 10:27 PM:

" I want to marry a head of lettuce........Let's all make salsa.....like Satan would.... "

Lindsey wrote on Jun 30, 2008 10:31 PM:

" they're not hurting you. they're in love. let them be. everyone deserves happiness. with divorce rates with straight couples so high, let the people who will truly value the marraige get married. "

Bethanie wrote on Jul 1, 2008 10:13 AM:

" Yes, my dear, it does say that in Genisis. But if you continue in the readings and studyings of the bible it also says that the Old Testament is not to be followed. That Christians should live their life by the new testament. Nice try.

And the world knows that we wouldn't want to undermine the sanctity of Briteny Spears's 32 hour marriage by allowing gay couples who love each other to have the same rights as all of the other people in the United States.

"We The People of the United States of America" We the PEOPLE. As in homosexuals are people and have the same rights as anyone else in this country. Or they should atleast.

Stop being such a bigot and realize the love that is being spread around. For the U.S. can truly not have peace when there are people like you refraining from change and comdemning those of us who just want people to be eqaul.

Oh, and don't let your husband sleep in the same bed with you next time you are on your period. It is agaisnt the bible. "

Matt wrote on Jul 1, 2008 11:24 AM:

" scott tucker just wanted to let you know that the seperation between church and state is actually a protection for churches so that the state does not intrude into churches life. Its so that the state does not set laws or make churches pay taxes. Its does not mean that the church shuts up. IT is to keep government out of church. I urge you to go read what the seperation of church and state says. I know I've read it through. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 1, 2008 11:34 AM:

" Bethanie - do you really consider Britney Spears the best example you could point out of being in a heterosexual marriage? She is a mental case who has attempted suicide do you tell me those cases aren't within the Homosexual Community as well, I think not. I could point to Boy George and so many other homosexual entertainers who are wrotten examples of homosexual lifestyle and behavior. That last gay entertainer with class played a piano and had a candelobra on it. He was the first to actually make a career because he was gay and talented, that a person can respect. So many of the other gay entertainers chose to hide in the closet and marry to cover up their sexual desires. Rock Hudson, Truman Capote to list just two of an ever ending list of homosexuals who covered up their illicit same sex love affairs. If they weren't ashamed of it, why did they cover it up? Why is it that this generation is so brazen to flaunt it and want it sanctioned as a normal healthy relationship would be. There is nothing normal about it. "

jeff wrote on Jul 1, 2008 12:14 PM:

" Fred, ten posts? Seriously?! They do not pray in Congress, that service is for politicians who wish to attend. It is not mandatory which is how you are stating it. This is a false statement just own up to it. I thought you always admitted when you were wrong? What, does placing American flags in schools have to do with anything I have said, anything we have discussed or praying in school or reciting the pledge of allegiance? You have pointed out in your own response that the pledge of allegiance was originally religion free. This only serves to undermine your position, thanks for the help. How does copying and pasting whole paragraphs of the Wikipedia entry for the pledge of allegiance do to provide value to this discussion? When have I ever said the pledge of allegiance no longer exists? Stop listening to the voices in your head. If you’re not going to actually read what I write why bother discussing anything? Do you do this just so you can fabricate arguments? "

jeff wrote on Jul 1, 2008 12:14 PM:

" Fred, July 12, 2007 they kicked things off with a Hindu prayer so your weak correlation that everything in our government must be Christian is false. There is no law that says Congress must be opened with a prayer. It just so happens there is no law that says they can’t. You are presenting the truth about this in a false way which is lying. Also please remember that Wikipedia is not always factual. You or I could easily edit pages. Would you care to provide any credible web sites such as ones ending in .gov? Unlike yourself I am willing to view information that might not agree with me so I looked up ‘Senate and Religion’ and ‘Congress and Religion’ in Wikipedia. The first only returned a list of politicians and their religious affiliations. The second returned ‘No article title matches’. Thanks for trying though. You have posted directly from the chaplain web site for the State of California. This somehow shows that Congress must be kicked off with a prayer? That if no prayer was said before Congress it would never start? This proves that attending the prayer and actually praying yourself is mandatory? It doesn’t. "

jeff wrote on Jul 1, 2008 12:14 PM:

" Fred, The rest of your comment giving Chaplain Richardson’s work history has what to do with any of this? The construction of the old Lemoore High School has what to do with any of this? It does not matter if a person should or should not have to be led in the pledge of allegiance at the High School level. You stated it was mandatory and it is not. Again you have said to me that you always admit when you are wrong because you are such a stand up guy. Yet here when you have been proven to be wrong you will not admit it. Please understand that you do not win arguments based on how many words you type. Do everyone a favor and please stop ranting. Ten posts and you have proven nothing. I think you got the market all locked up on egg face and shoe biting. Go ahead and keep calling me gay, this as most of your diatribes does nothing to improve your position and only helps to weaken it. "

Sarah wrote on Jul 1, 2008 12:30 PM:

" Remember people, we are not to judge anyone as we will all be judged when our time comes. We are all human beings with feelings, love, emotions and all of us want to be loved and belong. We are all children of God as he made us. Who are we to judge anyone for anything that we may not believe is right according to our beliefs, our church and our bible. God gave us free will. You don't have to approve of anything that is not to your liking. That's your right. But please do not judge or discreminate. We all have a choice to live our lives the way we want to. With God or with out God. I have my beliefs and I expect the same respect from my fellow man as any one else. We can't change the way people think or what they do. Every US citizen has the right to vote to voice their opinion. That is when anyone can make a difference, wether for or against the issue at hand. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 1, 2008 1:49 PM:

" Jeff - also evidently you are not aware that Hanford High had an original set of buildings very similar to Lemoore High School which were fine but the city decided they weren't safe and tore them down and erected what looks like a prison in it's place. That was my point and as people destroy the old for whatever reason a certain amount of history is lost along with it. There once stood a glorious auditorium one of my brothers played characters in along with several thousand alumini and that was also brought to the ground. There were many school plays presented in that grand old building. My comment was a Carpenter told me that when they tore it down it was harder to tear down than the new building that replaced it but people thought it wasn't safe. He said there was lumber in that building the size of a full grown tree that supported the foundation. So replacing the old with new isn't always the best policy now is it. Just like subtracting the right of children to recite the Pledge of Allegiance isn't necessarily a good thing Jeffrey "

Mateo wrote on Jul 1, 2008 1:53 PM:

" Go back to being a stuck-up conservative soccer mom. If you want to stick to these archaic social norms then why don't you just live by your standards and stay in your perfectly manicured 1950's kitchen and serve dinner to Ward, Wally, and Beaver. "

Alan G. wrote on Jul 1, 2008 2:24 PM:

" Holy mackerel Watchdog! Ten posts? That has to be an all time record for the Sentinel, although I have a feeling you were breaking your own record. "

Bethanie wrote on Jul 1, 2008 2:51 PM:

" Watchdog Fred,
When people say marriage is a snctity of the church and that homosexual marriage undermines heterosexual marriage, I don't see how it can when people like Britney Spears, and many other celebrities do that. That was my only point with that statement.

Oh trust me, sweets, most homosexuals are quite proud of who they are. They are just "closeted" because people like you condeming them and making them feel like less of a person. They didn't tell people that they were gay for fear of being killed or beaten up. Homosexuals are the third targeted group for hate crimes, and transgendered are the first. Why would we tell people who we hoose to love if heterosexuals are just going to kill us or hurt us?

What is not normal about it? The fact that one person wants to love another person? That seems pretty normal to me. Just because you choose to stick to your archaic views doesn't mean that everyone should suffer. We are outspoken because we finally realized that it is not okay for us to be slowly beaten down until we are "

Bethanie wrote on Jul 1, 2008 2:53 PM:

" so miserable in our life. We deserve to have rights and have the right to marry the ones we love. Just because it is in the bible? Not everyone is a Christian. That is under our freedom of religion. So why is it that non-christians should have to follow christians?

And why do you care so much? We aren't hurting you. We aren't doing anything to you. cAn't we just live our lives without people like you shooting us and our love for others down.

Isn't love just love? "

jeff wrote on Jul 1, 2008 3:18 PM:

" Fred, that argument could be made for or against in many aspects. Your example does not magically prove that gay marriage is wrong. Here are some examples of old traditions that did not help our society black slavery, women not legally being able to vote, belief in a flat world and using leeches for medicinal purposes. There are many more but that should suffice. When did I ever say kids should not be allowed to recite the pledge of allegiance? Again, you stated it was mandatory, I simply mentioned your statement was incorrect. I will remind you of your own words “This is not to say I am always without error we all know better than that, but you can bet if you call me on something and I know I am right, I'll provide you fact to back it up, or be man enough to say I got it wrong.” "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 1, 2008 3:18 PM:

" To Alan G. - wasn't trying to break records just justifying some comments Mr. Jeffery thinks were wrong, so I had to provide him with proof positive that he was the one that was incorrect, but he still won't admit to it. Like many he picks and chooses one or two words and ignores the meat of what they could be learning from. But like they say you can lead a mule to water but you can't always make him drink. I guess that then kind of makes the mule an _ _ _, then doesn' it?
Nice to hear from you Alan G., hadn't heard from you for a while. Is Southern Cal still congested and stressful as usual? "

greg wrote on Jul 1, 2008 3:30 PM:

" America, please realise that people of the same sex marrying is a natural and positive thing in life. These unions are not about "illicit sexual acts" as one narrow minded person posted, but about the love two people share.

out of the 4500 domestic partnerships in the uk there has been ONE divorce...........

my point is proven. "

Steve H. wrote on Jul 1, 2008 3:52 PM:

" People are going to make decisions and they will have to lve with the consequences of those decisions good or bad. I, for one do not approve of gay marriage but I am citizen of this nationa dn bound by the laws of this nation. However, as a Christian, I still love them anyways and so does God and I am a citizen of Heaven. With that said,
Sodom and Gomaorrah are not fictional places. Geez; do you wonder why California is burning? Could this be the beginning of something else to come? Do not underestimate Him it is far better to know His love than His wrath. Wiht a heart of humility I say--God will not be mocked. Our nation will reap what we have sown. "

Bethanie wrote on Jul 1, 2008 4:47 PM:

" Yes. God is burning California and Obama is the Anit-Christ

Beware the Apocolypse!! "

AC wrote on Jul 1, 2008 4:48 PM:

" Mrs. Ray I really just don't understand you're argument at all. If you think that god is the creator of everything, and god thinks gays are an abomination then why would he create them? "

Mrs.D wrote on Jul 1, 2008 5:28 PM:

" You know what's wrong, Ms. Ray; Never being accepted when you come to a new country. Never feeling that you were wanted here to begin with since you are the new person on the block. To think that someone once discriminated against you since you talk with a different accent and have a different culture.

Guess what? You're doing the same thing. "

Spiritual Wickedness in High Places wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:24 PM:

" Faith< Hope & Charity the verses you are inquiring about are Ephsians 6:10-19. Please take note of verse 6:19 that says, That I may open my mouth boldly. We must speek up and do something before it is to late or the liberal left will have there way in all decisions in government. "

Lemoore resident wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:46 PM:

" Ok first of all Fred needs to get a life. Actually many of you need to get a life. I have to agree with the few posts that say we should not judge others. I, for one, am NOT gay/lesbian. I am a practicing Catholic. Do I agree with gay marriages??? I DON'T CARE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. My life will not change one bit if these people are married or not. I will still get up in the morning, go to work, come home, and live my life. Why do all of you care so much what others are doing with their lives?? How does this affect you personally? It doesn't. So stop quoting the bible because this isn't a bible issue. Leave these people alone and get a life! Besides, why would anyone wish to be gay? I can't imagine waking up one morning and deciding....Hmmmm I think I'll try gay today, Let's see where that gets me!! Come on people they can't help it, let them live their lives. I hope my commas were all in the correct places. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:51 PM:

" I guess I could start at the bottom, and work my way up (no pun inteneded), ...God did not create "gays" God made them male and female. We may all have a carnal desire to do many things, inc luding the actual act itself, the "abomination" is the action. We are all capable of having a murderous spirit, and every other criminal thought you can think of.

What (should) seperate us from animals is the ability to choose are actions, I may have a desire to choke an in-law to death, but until I commit the 'act' no one knows except me and God, so the only "sin" is having the thought and asking God to forgive it. If I commit the act, I have sinned before God and man.

Why do you think our human nature is called the bottomless pit, because it is never satisfied, and so is the earth itself. If you buy a car and pay it off, do you ever stop paying for it in some way, or a puppy, a bird, a boat, .....the earth and our human nature is a bottomless pit. "

FaithHopeCharity wrote on Jul 1, 2008 8:07 PM:

" To Spiritual Wickedness in High Places,
I totally agree with all that you said ofcourse we as christians cannot let things go without doing what we need to do to stop it. But there are ways of doing things and trying to shove it down a persons throat isn't convincing them. It is only making there idea of Christians all wrong. I am not for any homosexual behavior. No, it is wrong. But there are ways to do it. Get on your knees and pray that God will handle this. No one can win against God unless He permits it to happen. The end of times are coming and like He says Don't fear for these things must come to pass in order for Him to come and take His church. These are the signs. Do I say give up. No, not at all. All i am saying is the devil has these people minds blind. And to argue and fight to prove they are wrong isn't doing anything but making them be pushed further apart. Pray for them. Show them God's love and by this they will know He exists. Not everyone will come to repentence. "

FaithHopeCharity wrote on Jul 1, 2008 8:16 PM:

" To Spiritual Wickedness in High Places,
But if we do it right my Christian Brother then they will know. We all have sin, and just because there is what it is doesn't make it right. It says also if you break even one of God's laws you are guilty of breaking them all. My sins are no less then theirs. They will all be judged the same. They wont go to a hotter hell for what they are doing then someone who has lied, cheated, stolen, murdered. It is all judged the same. Lets do the fighting in the courts. Not with words that spew hate. We are to show them love, not approval. We muat represent Jesus just like He is. He loves us but hates the sin. Just like our children we don't stop loving them but we dont approve of all they do either. And they will deal with the consequences. But it is for them to realize. God Bless "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 1, 2008 9:00 PM:

" I won't try and break Fred's record, but I will just pass along some things everyone of any thought should know. SPOILER ALERT....if you do not want your world view shattered, and wish to remain in denial, do not read further. For the church and state folks, who are way past beating a dead horse, and now trying to resurrect it to beat it some more.

A recent ruling (1994) from the SCOTUS (BoE kiryas village school v. Grumet. , where everyone is reminded again that the religious issue applies to 'irreligion' as well and the Supreme Court defines irreligion as: (caps are not screaming :)

IRRELIGION IS A LACK OF RELIGION, INDIFFERENCE TO RELIGION, OR HOSTLITY TO RELIGION {1} DEPENDING ON THE CONTEXT , IT MAY BE UNDERSTOOD AS REFFERING TO ATHEISM, AGNOSTICISM, DEISM, SKEPTICISM, FREETHOUGHT, SECULAR HUMANISM OR GENERAL SECULARISM. That is the courts own words.

The government cannot prefer one religion to another, nor irreligion to religion. The SCOTUS has ruled since the early seventies on all the "civil rights" issues pertaining to 14th Amendment, and other 'clauses'. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 1, 2008 9:50 PM:

" SPOILER ALERT still in effect. It started around 1971 in Baker v Nelson, Where the Minnesota Supreme Court ruled that Minnesota law limited marriage to opposite sex couples, and it did not violate the USA Constitution. Of course the ruling was appealed by the two gay men who had tried to force a clerk to give them a marriage license. The Minnesota Supreme Court also ruled that opposite sex only unions do not offend the First, Eighth, Ninth, or Fourteenth Amendments to the USA Constitution.......and that was just the beginning.....it ended up at the SCOTUS where the two gay men not only lost their appeal, it was lost on lack of merit, basis, and substance, in other words it was not even seen it was so lame. Setting a precedent for posterity. They even tried to play the race card, and use a ruling in Loving v Virginia, Comparing not allowing interracial marriage to their case, Where upon the court ruled once again, that it did not apply to the Baker case because in "commonsense and constitutional sense, there is a clear distinction between a restriction based on race , and the fundamental difference in sex. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 1, 2008 10:44 PM:

" You have to remember that in real simplespeak, they called the gay activists bluff, because "gay" people were being offered everything as far as legal bennies etc, but the only thing they were not offered was the states recognition of an irreligious precept/concept. "didja" ever read the story about the monkey who wanted a cookie out of a small mouth jar, but he wanted all the cookies, and he tried to get them all at once, but his hand would not go past the opening with it full of cookies, so rather than taking one at a time, he went away frustrated and recieved none at all......In case anyone is wondering here, the main point here is that gay people wish it was about religion when in fact it is not. The law, the constitution, and basic biology (science) simply agree with religious folks. People "join" a religion because the religion agrees with their natural moral values, the values may improve sometimes, but they have the basis for their "opinions" first, and then join one that agrees with it. So when the writer states that it is 'wrong', Even the Supreme Court agrees. More 2 come. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 1, 2008 11:56 PM:

" The reason the Baker case has so much impact is that it is worse than losing a case, here is a quote from the Big word Boys, "...
Unlike a denial of certiorari, a dismissal for want of a substantial federal question constitutes a decision on the merits of the case, and as such, is binding precedent on all lower Federal Courts."..... in the case of Wilson v. Ake , (Florida) 2 females this time, where again the courts agree with the writers statement that same sex marriage is wrong, legally and otherwise, Baker was cited as precedent in that case also. Again in Morrison v Sadler, Indiana, 2005, Where 3 couples sued together, and of course lost the case. Even in Liberal bastion NY, the courts ruled in Hernandez v Robles , 2006, (a bunch of cases lumped together), that Baker was constitutionally correct. For you equal protection sound biters, check out Citizens for Equal Protection V Bruning(2006)....point being, is simply if you think same sex marriage is wrong,(ir) regardless of whether you are a christian or a muslim, or an atheist, the law of the land, and nature, and science, agrees with you. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 2, 2008 12:46 AM:

" Since reading legalspeak is about as much fun as chewing on clean dry cat litter, Let's change the lingo a bit. How about for those with a sense of humor think about even these few examples, Even for those who feel we came from monkeys, (not sure about you but, I pray to my Father who art in Heaven, not my father who art up a coconut tree) jus sayin, for myself .

simple questions like, Did Tarzan say , "me Tarzan you Jane, or Jim.??? Did Cleopatra marry Caesar or Caesarina,??? Did men have harems of women or not???, Have you ever seen even a cartoon character other than of a caveman with a billy club in his hand , pulling a female by the hair??? (I personally have never seen one with a guy pulling another guy by the hair), It is because the "norm" has been settled for thousands or millions of years whichever you prefer, which is why it is actually funny when gay people disagree with someone they say you are "anti-gay" not realising there is no such thing, anti is against the norm, "

Carrie wrote on Jul 2, 2008 12:55 AM:

" What I want to know is, how does gay marriage hurt heterosexuals?
If someone can answer than question for me without resorting to ancient, outdated Bible quotes, that would be great.

Even Bill O'Reilly agrees: there is no non-religious reason why gay marriage hurts heterosexuals. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 2, 2008 1:17 AM:

" There is much more, but for now if you are really bored and you think there is a legal reason someone should be given special rights based on their preference, remember this ,....until the world ends, if ever, gay people will never be able to legalize a marriage anyway, Gay people will never be able to LEGALLY consumate a marriage,(forget procreation), mainly because a peg does not go in a peg, nor does a hole go into a hole, ...you remember those games you played , where even children in Kindergarten knew what was what, and a square peg had to go where a square peg went, etc,....I am talking the legal definition of consumation, not the 2nd 3rd and 4th definitions. have fun. "

jeff wrote on Jul 2, 2008 10:31 AM:

" Gary there is so much wrong with what you said. You failed at shattering my world view, I am opened minded so I was open to no longer living in denial and read all of your comments. I’m apparently still living in denial.

Your story of kiryas village school v. Grumet really only states that irreligion is just as protected as religion, what does this do for your argument? Here is another case involving a school you might want to read. Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al. or an article called Lone Star vs creationism
Your Baker v Nelson story says what exactly? California just approved gay marriage so things do not always stay the same. Black people used to be slaves and women were second class citizens. These social ‘norms’ were changed.
Your monkey and cookie story could easily be applied to yourself. If this is not about religion why do you and the rest of the opponents always bring it up? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 2, 2008 2:36 PM:

" Gary - here is a post I just copied that Jeff wrote on Keep their right to marry:
jeff wrote on Jul 2, 2008 1:59 PM:

" TO ALL, Please tell me how calling it marriage removes your rights? No one is saying you have to start marrying men. If your argument is that they should have all the same rights just call it something else do you realize you are then just arguing over a word and nothing else? Do you really believe this is not childish and petty? I believe religion is an evil tool used by men to control men, is it against my rights that religion is not made illegal? No, that would be unconstitutional. "
He finally admits his problem with us all who believe in God. He believes religion is an evil tool, but he quotes the bible like he believes in it.
What a hypocrit, you getting this Alejandro? "

jeff wrote on Jul 2, 2008 3:45 PM:

" Fred, way to go detective you have just uncovered something I have never kept secret and have always been open about. I have stated I am a Atheist many times and that I do not believe in God. I have never quoted the Bible “like I believe in it”. This is a fundamental difference between you and I. I discovered that I do not believe in the Bible by reading it and studying it where as you make blanket assumptions based on hearsay and sound bites instead of doing research for yourself. There is a word for people who are proud of their lack of knowledge. You have tried to use this same tactic on me before and it failed then too. You have even addressed me correctly as a Atheist in the past. Do you remember this gem Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 25, 2008 2:04 PM “Jeff There must be a jealousy of some type that provokes that response from all you atheist?” Hey, bang up job, I wish I could feel as good about myself when I point out things everybody else already knows. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 2, 2008 4:06 PM:

" Well I've answered all your questions today and none of the posts are coming through so I guess you win by default of the moderators. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 2, 2008 6:37 PM:

" Jeff here is one of those dot gov things you asked for you know how to use it, right? sen.ca.gov/Chaplain/
here is another one: chaplain.house.gov/
now if you don't get this this time it is not my fault.
1. www.sen.ca.gov./Chaplain/
2. www chaplain.house.gov/
There you go Jeff. "

Melissa wrote on Jul 2, 2008 9:29 PM:

" Dan,

Really? Marriage is important only people a man and a woman? It was the man and the woman that ruined marriage, with cheating and leaving, it was man and woman that messed up the creation story by eating the darn fruit! Homosexuals have not ruined anything. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 3, 2008 4:09 AM:

" To Carrie - my nephew is getting married next month in another state. Thank God for small favors, his Marriage License won't contain party a and party b it will say Husband and Wife. Still yet all this nonsense is gonna cost California in the end. Everytime a fee is paid for a license that fee goes to California. Young men and women are going to start marrying out of state to avoid the party a and party b stigma being placed on their licenses, they aren't ignorant. Entire families are going to take revenue for weddings out of the state to avoid this and this will cost wedding planners millions of dollars. They cut their businesses in half they didn't double their business it just hasn't began to trickle down yet. When the economy of California collapses and taxes aren't there in the coffers someone is going to have to make it up. By that time I figure gays and the immigrants can easily afford to do that. Because other taxpayers will be living in Oregon, Wa. and Nevada by then. You think you just got a tax decrease, wrong. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 3, 2008 4:17 AM:

" To Carrie - because as a special little token of our appreciation for your Justice's ruling. We are going to leave blood sucking Welfare behind for you to pay in full. If you think you are gonna get married here and then run off and have it recognized in the other fifty you are sadly mistaken. Because, until it is recognized Federally as Melissa wants, that won't happen and I can tell you right now as long as the Bible Belt in the south exists, that is not gonna even be thought possible. This is what I have meant all along when I talk about winning little battles but losing the war. You are gonna find that forcing the entire population of the United States to accept your lifestyle much less your marriage is not in your future or mine. November is gonna be a wakeup call for all those homosexuals who marry between June and then. All those marriages will be made null and void with the stroke of one federal pen once the state rules it not legal. "

jeff wrote on Jul 3, 2008 10:43 AM:

" Fred, wow I can barely believe you did something someone asked you to do. Your first example even though it is a .gov site is only for the state of California, this has actually been addressed so you may read again my reply to that. Your second example is for the U.S. House of Representatives and does not include the Senate. Here is a quote pated directly from the site “We welcome all who are interested”. They also do not appear to hold services on the floor but in other rooms and the Congressional Prayer Room. I know you love Wikipedia, you can look up the House there and under the ‘Procedure’ section there is no mention of how they start everything with a prayer. What we can deduce from this information is this, prayer is offered, it is not required, it is not considered a procedurally crucial part of what they do and everything would still run like clockwork if it was removed. It also says that when they convene they do not bring in a pastor, everyone bows their heads, a prayer is said and then work is done. "

jeff wrote on Jul 3, 2008 10:43 AM:

" I think it would be pertinent to point out that on 7-12-07 when the first opening prayer was read by a Hindu, Christian fundamentalists disrupted proceedings three times by yelling it was an "abomination". You stated you answered all my questions yet I see that you have only answered one. There are (I believe) three other articles up right now where you have left unanswered questions. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 3, 2008 11:40 AM:

" Jeff here it is out of Wikepedia, which I don't understand you contesting. You contest, complain but show no pasted material from Wikepedia that you have found incorrect:

During the past two hundred and seven years, all sessions of the Senate have been opened with prayer, strongly affirming the Senate's faith in God as Sovereign Lord of our Nation. The role of the Chaplain as spiritual advisor and counselor has expanded over the years from a part-time position to a full-time job as one of the Officers of the Senate. The Office of the Chaplain is nonpartisan, nonpolitical, and nonsectarian. "

Greg wrote on Jul 3, 2008 4:18 PM:

" Lemoore resident - thank you for proving me wrong that all christians in America were crazy and delusional. You are a person of faith and sense :) "

wrote on Jul 3, 2008 9:03 PM:

" if they want to be married. let it be they are not hurting anyone. "

jeff wrote on Jul 5, 2008 9:32 AM:

" Fred, I Google'd the first part of your statement “During the past two hundred and seven years, all sessions of the Senate have been opened with prayer, strongly affirming the Senate's faith in God as Sovereign Lord” and not one Wikipedia entry was returned (Several religious web sites were returned). I then went straight to Wikipedia and searched that sentence with no results returned. Would it be possible for you to tell me what it is you searched on or the URL in Wikipedia that has this statement? You said “You contest, complain but show no pasted material from Wikepedia that you have found incorrect” that is because nothing you have shown here can be found in Wikipedia. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 7, 2008 4:57 AM:

" Jeff - I'll do better than that I will provide the entire two paragraphs and the sit for you:
Chaplain's Office

Barry C. Black

Throughout the years, the United States Senate has honored the historic separation of Church and State, but not the separation of God and State. The first Senate, meeting in New York City on April 25, 1789, elected the Right Reverend Samuel Provost, the Episcopal Bishop of New York, as its first Chaplain. During the past two hundred and seven years, all sessions of the Senate have been opened with prayer, strongly affirming the Senate's faith in God as Sovereign Lord of our Nation. The role of the Chaplain as spiritual advisor and counselor has expanded over the years from a part-time position to a full-time job as one of the Officers of the Senate. The Office of the Chaplain is nonpartisan, nonpolitical, and nonsectarian.
You can find this under www.senate.gov/reference/office/chaplain.htm
when you go to this site the information is printed on United States Senate letter head.
FYI. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 7, 2008 4:59 AM:

" Jeff - just to set the record straight I said the Senate and Congress were opened with prayer, no where have I ever said that it was exclusively Christian Prayer, if I did please paste it and show it to me, because I have not and you won't be able to. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 7, 2008 5:46 AM:

" Obama is really concerned about us voters: So concerned he isn't voting on this matter:

On the Cloture Motion S. 3044
A bill to provide energy price relief and hold oil companies and other entities accountable for their actions with regard to high energy prices, and for other purposes. Cloture Motion Rejected (51-43, 3/5 majority required) Not Voting "

Scott Tucker wrote on Jul 7, 2008 9:54 AM:

" Watchdog, You failed to mention that your hero, McCain, also did not vote on the bill. In fact, McCain has abstained from voting on most of the bills that have gone through the Senate this year.

Go here to find the voting results: http://www.opencongress.org/roll_call/show/4748 "

jeff wrote on Jul 7, 2008 10:04 AM:

" Perfect Fred, I am so glad you did that. Please now explain to me how this proves that Gay marriage is wrong? "The senate approves of God and state." What God is this exactly? What religious book is to be followed? What rule printed in the name of what Holy Spirit is to be used here? If you wanted me to find this in the first place why did you tell me you got it from Wikipedia when it is clear you did not? It says this right in your paste “The Office of the Chaplain is nonpartisan, nonpolitical, and nonsectarian.” Stop using the Christian Bible to show gay marriage is wrong, even the Senate disagrees with you. What does any politicians stance on energy have to do with this topic? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 7, 2008 7:49 PM:

" To Jeff - your rambling and ranting as if you just won victory is rediculous. That site is found in Wikepedia under United States Senate Chaplain which I had told you to look up before, but as usual you were too lazy and wanted your work done for you. I've never one time said the prayers offered were Christian only you put that spin on it, somehow to cheapen the truth. Show me where I stated anything other than the fact that there was PRAYER in both the Senate and Congress, I have not and never would, because I simply know that isn't true. All the information you found was there but you were too lazy to look at it, I also never said that the Chaplain's were sectarian or partial, simply that they offered prayer before the start of each session which is what they do. You waste so much time arguing what isn't an argument trying to avoid the meat of the situation, you truly are a liberal, aren't you? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 7, 2008 8:06 PM:

" To Scott Tucker - I advise you to look up the Sunlight Foundation whose facts are solely based on a few biased opinionators and bloggers like you and I as their basis for their information. I hardly think that this is a reliable source Scott since the Senate has been in business for 207 years and they have been in business for less than one year. Which tells me the informaiton you've rely on was gathered based on one year when John McCain has been in the Seante many more years than that perhaps that is why you consider it an accurate measuring tool because Obama is so inexperienced. You measure a man during the period of time he is busy campaigning for President in my opinion is not a fair annalysis of his many years representing Arizona over Obama's limited time of serving Illinois. But as usual you are going off half cocked with taintend informatin from the demogogues who supply your thoughts for you and tell you how to vote. What was the vacation cut short? By the way according to the Elections Office you are not entitled to vote. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 7, 2008 8:07 PM:

" To Jeff how dare you say my blogs are difficult to understand. Your most recent blog never gets to a single point, it is massed with ranting and raving like a madman who just discovered the net. Please try and stay on topic and cohesive so we can understand you. Perhaps you need another ridalin?. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 7, 2008 8:32 PM:

" Carrie....Not sure you want to hear it, but most gay people try to stay away from that question, as in "Whats the harm", I will share a few with you. Sometime, just for giggles, type in "45 declared communist goals" and read number 26....it says..."Present homosexuality,degeneracy, and promiscuity as 'normal, natural, healthy'. ....it is not just a communist understanding, every country on this planet knows that there are a list of ten things to do to destroy a country, some are already so unstable, just doing 3-4 of them and the country would be toast. It is like smoking, a child could smoke a cigarette and say look mommy, I am still alive, nobody hurt, same with taking drugs, drinking, it is a scorpion, the sting is in the end, upfront all seems so innocent. Look at any historical period, and you will see the same. When a certain level of degeneracy is reached, the country falls. We do the same to other countries, as do other countries to each other. I will show you some of the more obvious ones in the next post. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 7, 2008 9:23 PM:

" Scott Tucker - that's amazing you just can't stay away or has it been two weeks already? Gee, I'd like to say I missed you but doesn't seem like there has been time too.
How was Paris did you take the typical stupid picture where you are keeping the Eifel Tower from plumitting to earth?
Well I know you'll find this hard to believe but America had it's birthday once again, we all celebrated it in style. The wife and I traveled to Las Vegas and watched the fireworks with several thousand other Americans and had a wonderful time, saw Reba in a personal concert tour. What an Awesome American Entertainer. Her piano player performed a solo performance of America The Beautiful to a sold out American crowd. Which immediately stood with their hands over their American Hearts in tribute to a great and free America. I also mananged to win a few American Dollars while we were there. Well this is Watchdog Fred from America signing off, hope you had a wonderful time in Gay Paris!!!!!! "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jul 7, 2008 9:30 PM:

" Hello Watchdog!
Since several of my other posts have been censored, while other liberal atheist progressives have not, I will now attempt to list the many areas in California law that hurt or offend those lawful traditional heterosexual state residents who are repulsed by homosexual marriage.

"CALIFORNIA
FAMILY CODE SECTION 720-721
720. Husband and wife contract toward each other obligations of mutual respect, fidelity, and support."

What will this section of existing CA. law be changed to now that there is no more husband and wife, just ‘Party A' and ‘Party B?'

I want to keep the current language of the law intact, but what language will the homosexuals require to protect their rights to not be a husband or a wife?

I, my family, my children, and my friends, have the right to keep the long-accepted language and tradition of marriage - the concept of a husband and a wife - intact. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 7, 2008 9:46 PM:

" So just when people were not so afraid of being around gay men/women, for fear of AIDS, we find that people with AIDS, are extremely susceptible to a myriad of diseases that were once under control, such as TB, and now we have drug resistant strains of that. These diseases spread quickly through gay groups across the nation because of the high number of 'contacts' per person , and a large number who travel to major cities, like Boston, Frisco, NY, and other countries.

These people then integrate into society at many levels, coming in contact with thousands of people a day, at work, hospitals, food service, dentists, gymnasiums, day care, etc etc...

Then along comes CA 300 MRSA, where a study done by GAY ACTIVISTS to track down where it came from, and how it spread so quickly, because it is very contagious, and deadly, (19,000 per year), they found that gay men are 13 times more likely to get it, or be a carrier, due to their "lifestyle" and weakened immune systems. The germs can remain for weeks on most surfaces, like at the gymnasium, home,workplace. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 7, 2008 10:59 PM:

" If the state said that all gay people had to tatoo a pink triangle on their foreheads, and yell unclean unclean, every ten feet, would everyone just happily comply??? Hmmmm....rhetorical question you would think , right, not so.

If you want any of the bennies , you would have to tell your employer, or the person seeking to hire you. If you were in high contact areas like, hospitals, schools, foodservice, especially food service in a hospital or school, any medical office, fast food, any job where you shake hands with people all day, like any sales type of work,,even if you never touch another person, and work in a cubicle like a hermit, you touch things all day, light switches, dorrs, water fixtures, toilet handles, keyboards, copy machines.......so you think someone is more likely to hire you knowing your gay, or you already have a job, hello downsizing or 'reorganization', (group firings are easy), or even legit reasons to fire you personally.

And that person who has been called a "rightwing ---job, bigotted, knuckledragging , trogledyte," and other non-printables for years, is going to hire you, right, riiiight. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 7, 2008 11:28 PM:

" I will show you a few more Carrie, but it only gets worse, and this is the tip of the proverbial iceberg,

Ask yourself if people would be upset if there were classes given starting at pre-school all the way through high school, that included such topics as, how to smoke cigarettes, and playing down the health risks involved and promoting it as healthy and 'okay', How about classes on proper use of a crack pipe, and where to find dealers, and things to do so you do not overdose, and promote it as healthy and normal, how about drinkng, I think we get the picture....people would be incensed, and rightly so.

For men the gay lifestyle takes almost double off their life span than just plain ol' smokin' cigarettes,.Right now every male or female can drink, smoke, and many other activities that have health risks, including drain bamage. We all have the freedom to drink, and with that freedom the risk of being hit by a drunk driver, people who kill and maim go to prison....would you pass a law giving drunks special protections from their actions.?? "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 7, 2008 11:50 PM:

" As you can clearly see Religion has zero to do with any info I have shown you, the info only confirms their thought, not the other way around.

Does religion have anything to do with the fact that men who have sex with men (MSM), have an HIV prevalence rate 60 times higher than the general population, and 800 times higher than first time blood donors, and 8,000 times higher than repeat blood donors.

Also more susceptible to all STD's, including 5-6 times higher for Hep B, and twice as likely for Hep C, and even though gays only comprise a 1-2 percent (FDA), of the populace, they acount for over sixty percent of the syphilis cases, in other words it should be considered a criminal act for educators to teach children that the gay lifestyle is healthy and normal.

Have you ever seen a condom with the warning on the pack, (like smokes), that MSM will take twenty years off your life. Or that condoms do not prevent the spread of the HPV virus? "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 8, 2008 12:10 AM:

" Does alot of this sound like it falls under one mans rights end where the other begins.

Smoking was outlawed on the premise that other people who had no desire to smoke, did not have to suffer the health risks associated with someone elses risky behavior ( some of you are screaming at the monitor already), That is correct, no difference here is there. No matter how much you scream, and yell, and change the subject, it will not change the constitution, nature, and biology, and laws already time tested all the way to the SCOTUS, including the dead horse church and state, 14th amendment.....

You can say your world view was not shaken, but I doubt very few gay people knew that when the writer said "It is wrong", I doubt that they knew that pretty much every angle and excuse has been to the SCOTUS, including the "oh we are just like racial issues", not so says the SCOTUS. which backs up the writers original thought. There are cases pending in SF, as we speak, that do not have a chance,"visavis" Baker v Nelson. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 8, 2008 12:56 AM:

" .For the doubters out there who do not agree with the original column, and think there is no such thing as the "slippery slope". need not look far,

An avid 'spokesperson' for gay rights who was involved in getting the Psychiatric Association to drop the H-word, and say that in certain cases gay sex is normal, finally got his wish. So now they just no longer use the H-word, and simply state in the 'criteria' section of the DSM IV, that if something is not Legally, Morally, and Biologically correct, it is still considered abnormal behavior. Again agreeing with the column writer, and countless others.

His name was Frank Kameny, and he has recently sent a letter to various "agencies" of his views on many things, including the statement that,,..... "bestiality is normal and protected by the constitution, and that there is no such thing as perversion"........ (easily googled).

Point being, it started out G&Ls it went quickly to GLBT's ,,.(can a bi-sexual person marry a man and a women, hello)...and it will never stop, no matter how much you wish it could. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 8, 2008 1:22 AM:

" If you need more examples of countries who have been led down the slippery slope, incrementally, Look at countries where they even have representation in their Parliaments for pedophiles, Amsterdam recently made Public Parks legal places to have gay sex, and you guessed it,.... said other cities should follow their lead (Dutch), Pet owners will be fined if their animals are off the leash, but open air gay sex is no problem. The gay folks will only be fined if they leave condoms and other paraphernalia behind,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1581598/Dutch-to-legalise-gay-sex-in-public-park.html

Some people may innocently believe there is no 'harm' in getting the government to legitimize " ....Just this one time, one teensy weensy time, it won't go any further...." that is not how it works.

FDA figures also show that the infamous "monogamous" relationships, average 8 other 'contacts' per year, at minimum, the actually humorous reason being, they do not have to worry about getting pregnant. If it was not a serious issue , you gotta admit it is funny.

how about some zingers, in the next post, I promise. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 8, 2008 1:44 AM:

" For those trying to understand why people say "it is wrong", think about some of the following:

When a gay person says they are a man in a girls body, or a girl in a mans body, to the 98% other straight folks, it is as silly as me saying I am a black man in a white mans body. Feel free to scream apples and oranges, it is exactly the same. There is a huge gap between skin and gender.

Gays claim to be "hardwired" as in ..."I do not have a choice."..conveniently trying to allay their conscience and the understanding that it is against biology, and nature. For those who say some animal species behave like that, have some respect for yourself, and know that you are above animals, you have a choice.

We are "hardwired" in literally everything we think say and do, whether you think it was by chance, or a creator, from the simple someone punches our nose and we mash their face, love, hate, criminal acts, any decision we make. In most instances we have a choice. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 8, 2008 2:00 AM:

" The problem with the "hardwired" excuse is that if that were so, it would actually work against gay folks, because, it would be easy to show that a large portion of everyone else had the same "wire" and did not give in to it (see choice)..

It is real similiar to the "sexual preference" reasoning, when the 98% say things like , "well if we allow this whats next, polygamy, then animals, kids, etc. then the gay folks say words like, "Oh no, it has to be all about consenting adults,", ...not so, the Gay activists themselves got a law passed that sexual preference is a protected 'right', just like religion, race, where you cannot take away something based on race, nor can you give someone something based on race.

If I am black and walk into an Apt complex, and say you must rent to me because I am black, is that legal, ...?...no more than it would be legal for me to deny renting to him because they are black,

I see some of you smiling, you know where I am going, and it is simple stuff. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 8, 2008 2:17 AM:

" If I am a Muslim and walk into a office and say you must hire me because I am Muslim, is that legal,... if same person walks into my office, can I say I am not hiring you because you are Muslim?

Gay people themselves made the law that says you CANNOT (not screaming just emphasis for the hard of hearing), give or take away anything from them based on their sexual preference. Not the "religious right", not anyone but themselves, made that law.

If I belonged to a group who called themself, the Super Duper Christians (SDC), can we get state money to go into schools and teach kids from preschool on up that they should think and act like the SDC wants you to, hello. Can they get state money to fund support groups on campus for the "confused" If part of a ritual was to consume sesos/cow brains every sunday, could they get tax dollars in the billions to pay for research into Mad cow disease. Could they get money from that for their medical bills? "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 8, 2008 2:39 AM:

" Gay people made the law that (again) agrees with the writer that it is wrong.

Gay people want the law to apply only when it suits them.Gay people are asking for rights, bennies, etc, based on their sexual preference.

You cannot legally do that, because you would be giving them something based on their sexual preference, they are asking for special rights, and they know it. Can a Muslim get special tax breaks simply because he is Muslim, can he get bennies at work, special visitation rights at hospitals, Can he forego paying taxes because he is Muslim?

So when people say whats to stop someone from getting married to their picnic table or a juvenile, or an animal, it is not about consent, it is sexual preference, if I prefer picnic tables , that is my preference, if i prefer juveniles that is my preference, if I prefer animals that is my preference....if I prefer.....consent has zero to do with what gays are asking for.

So it is wrong/illegal even with a law gay people made up. priceless "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 8, 2008 3:00 AM:

" Oh, let's not forget that favorite that is used when someone runs out of excuses, ah yes, the "homophobe", there never has and never will be such a thing, no more than someone who is gay could be a "normalphobe" or a "Godaphobe", or "religionaphobe,"

The word is simply a place to hide and try and turn the onus on the other person as if they are the "badguy"....that guilt trip wore out years ago, A gay persons failure to simply admit that someone disagrees with them is their problem, no one else(s). How does someone disagreeing with someone else turn them into numerous negative labels, If you are against liberating Iraq, do people call you a racist, or a bigot, or a Islamaphobe, no you just disagree. Could not someone make the point that if you want to help Africa but not the Iraqis, that it is racist and religionaphobe.

Religious people did not wake up after 200 years and go, hey let's torque the gay folks and make laws, and put it in the state constitution that marriage is between a man and a women "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 8, 2008 3:20 AM:

" It is similiar to the excuse we would use as children, when we would tell our parents that we did not start the fight, that the other person hit me back first.

Gay activists/lobbies/groups tried every which way to find loopholes, force issues to get some precedent, etc, etc, and much more etc...and finally the 98% stood up and said, not so fast, and started plugging the loopholes, solidifying existing laws, clarifying existing laws, and 27 of 28 states where it was put on the ballot for a constitutional amendment, it was passed. The 98% only RE- acted to an action, and gay folks were not pleased.

over 45 states at last count,( about 6 months ago) have put it in their constitution, or made statutes, and other provisions, that a marriage is between a man and a women, and even stipulated that they will not recognize the errors of another state in that regard.

Most everything I have mentioned is either understood by itself or is easily googled.

You guessed it ,I barely scratched the surface. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 8, 2008 3:31 AM:

" If you are still struggling with reality, look at it with your shoes on someone else, like the hot button "hate crimes" hello.....talk about special rights, wait....wait...let me finish, If I am hardwired to be repulsed by gay activity and cannot "fight the urge" why can't someone be protected for excercising that urge to do great bodily harm to someone who is gay. We are hardwired btw to do just that but 99.9% fight the urge and win. How do we know this is true, because gay folks know the truth of it, and that is why they want to indoctrinate little kids to overcome their natural aversion to such activity. The genetic excuse is even worse. enough for now though. "

Gary Trammel wrote on Jul 8, 2008 3:34 AM:

" If you need a chuckle after all that go watch the movie by Tom Cruise, "Missionary Impossible" it will explain everything, "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 8, 2008 1:08 PM:

" To Scott Tucker: these people you resource have been in business less than one year. What data could they have pooled to report upon?

Go here to find the voting results: http://www.opencongress.org/roll_call/show/4748 "

Once again you snagged a sound bite that caught your attention and you didn't investigate it you just ran with it. There is no dot gov in this site and it is a biased group including bloggers like you and myself who provide data and opinion for the data they then reflect as gospil from the voting public. I hardly think so Batman, wrong again but keep it up and you may still yet one day win that Robbin Badge. You ready to talk about the Swiss Garbage Police Yet? "

Alan G. wrote on Jul 8, 2008 4:24 PM:

" Stick a fork in this one, it's done! "

jeff wrote on Jul 8, 2008 4:55 PM:

" Gary, your comment about gay people and contagious diseases is meaningless in this discussion. Making it illegal for them to marry will do nothing for this. I guess you really want homosexuality to just be illegal but how would that be enforced exactly?

There are no classes in schools teaching kids homosexuality, stop being delusional.

Cigarette packs say nothing about taking 20 years off your life; they do however speak to the fact that smoking can be dangerous to your health, just as condom wrappers speak to the fact that you can get STD’s from sex. So yes I have seen a condom wrapper with the same type of warning that cigarette packs have.

Smoking is not outlawed Gary, people can still smoke. Everyone has the same right here as they would with gay marriage. You don’t have to do it if you don’t want to.

Your Frank Kameny example is just fantastic. You’re judging a very diverse group of people based on the actions of one man. That would be like me judging you for the actions of Eric Rudolf, are you suggesting this is what I should be doing? "

jeff wrote on Jul 8, 2008 4:55 PM:

" Fred, thanks for the laughs today I needed them. Are you sure you and Gary are not the same person? "




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