History Buff wrote on Jun 27, 2008 3:04 PM:
" I concur Maria. I'm straight with relatives & friends that are not. I love them PERIOD. "
Scott Tucker wrote on Jun 27, 2008 5:14 PM:
" Dear Ms. Holdren, Thank you for your excellent letter. "
Understand but wrote on Jun 27, 2008 6:00 PM:
" It is sad that this person said these hurtful things in front of (or for that matter at all) you. We all have issues, people, situations in our life that cause us pain, hurt, embarrassment or whatever.
That being said, I will be voting to overturn the courts decision. Not because I am homophobic or do not want them to have legal protection under the law. I believe that marriage is between a man and woman. It always has been and should, always be. I base my decisions (voting and otherwise) not always on what I want, but how God views my decision. Sometimes that leaves me wondering what He was thinking. But down the road, I always see the wisdom of His decisions and am willing to yeild my will to His.
I do not hate gays or group of individuals, but do believe the majority should rule in this case and not the courts. It is time to get true representation of our wants into the courts and into office. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 1, 2008 1:57 AM:
" I must say that I do not feel the same pitty that you say you feel for those partnerships who pursued this issue to the California Supreme Court if they lose every right in the process. They were offered a way to celebrate their relationship and chose not to accept it, so if they lose it's on them for not being satisfied with what was first laid out and offered to them. Had they accepted that the rights they wanted were sure to follow but now that they have tried to force it upon our state, I don't have any sorrow in voting yes on the amendment, at first I did, in all honesty I thought everyone deserved rights, but what about my right to expect a marriage license to still read husband and wife? What about my expectations for my future grandchildren and other relatives who chose the heterosexual route and will be known as party a and party b? Sometimes you have to watch what you wish for because sometimes you get what you wished for and no more. Regradless with the way this economy is falling apart soon it won't matter. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 1, 2008 2:02 AM:
" With the economy in shambles pretty soon, no one will be working and no one will have health care insurance offered to them. Welfare recipients will finally have what they want we will all be on a level playing field. Former workers fighting for the rights Welfare Rats have all tied up and sewn up. Then California will have to start investigating them and kicking them off one by one for fraud that we all know is going on, then and only then will we be allowed to take their place in line for Welfare. Then for a lot of them the choice will be stay here and have nothing or reimmigrate back into the society from which they originated. Wouldn't that be the irony of all ironies if Mexico has to take it's nonworking class back into their fold. People right now are driving across the border in San Diego to save on gas prices. What's next driving there for better jobs than in the United States, gee I wonder how long they will allow us that privilege before the machine guns come out in force to mow us down? "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 1, 2008 2:11 AM:
" Maybe when the Mexican Military have to put armed machine gun nests at their border to keep us out then they will appreciate what our problems have been like over all these many years.
Maybe we should make a mass exodus to Canada and take over all their jobs and national insurance plans and reap the benefits they have earned but we will take away from them as immigrants. Canada has beautifully clean cities and we do not. Perhaps that isn't such a bad idea, migrating to Canada.
So you see soon accepted marriage or not it may simply not matter in this country any longer as it's moral deprivatie takes over and the Work to Welfare laws take effect, we may all still parrish in the end. Why because we couldn't be satisfied with things the way they were. People in Germany wanted change during Hitler's realm you saw what they got? 2 million more illegals come to California and we might as well call this Northern Baja, Mexico. Then the United States can withdraw all it's federal funding and put the money into states that care about being American. "
jeff wrote on Jul 1, 2008 3:02 PM:
" Fred, “They were offered a way to celebrate their relationship and chose not to accept it, so if they lose it's on them for not being satisfied with what was first laid out and offered to them.” They were not offered the same rights as everyone else. Also pleas stay on topic, this article is not about the economy. You need to focus and keep your thoughts clear.” Canada has beautifully clean cities and we do not. Perhaps that isn't such a bad idea, migrating to Canada.” I do not think you would like it there much. They are pretty liberal and they have never started a war. “So you see soon accepted marriage or not it may simply not matter in this country any longer” if you believe that than why are you so personally involved in this argument? Wait a second; you said that because I was personally involved that I must be gay. Does that mean you are…….well never mind. "
Lorie wrote on Jul 2, 2008 1:56 AM:
" Maria, exceptionally put! I applaud you! "
Rebecca Patterson-Kmet Texas Retired Pharmacist wrote on Jul 2, 2008 8:54 AM:
" Does the author have any idea why civilizations for the last six thousand years would not legalize homosexual marriage in any country until this generation? Does the author understand Sodom and Gomorrah were rampant with homosexuals which is where sodomy got its name from and both cities were destroyed by atomic fire from God? The tiles melted which can only be accomplished by atomic heat. God used nuclear weapons on Sodom and Gomorrah. The reason ancient and modern civilizations until this generation did not allow legalization of gay marriages was because they knew by oral tradition the cause of the Great Flood of Noah: homosexual marriages. LIke it or not, God created the earth, the heavens, people and animals. God owns the universe and the Bible makes it clear God thinks it is an abomination for a man to lie with a man as he lies with a woman (that means sex, folks). The voters of California must once again vote against gay marriage. The judge who thwarted the will of the people should be impeached as should all judges who misuse the authority invested in them. "
PJ wrote on Jul 2, 2008 11:40 AM:
" Am I the only one who gets the eeby jeebies by someone acting like there god is the end all be all of everything. Over 70% of this world doesn't believe in your bible so stop quoting it like its someting we all care about "
To All wrote on Jul 2, 2008 1:30 PM:
" I will try to keep this short. First I must repeat myself, I am not against anyone being afforded the same rights, but I am not for my rights being taken away. The definition of marriage is between man and woman, but now a minority is dictating to the majority of what must be accepted. I think that the same rights should be available without the need to discredit the definition of marriage. Don't talk about what heterosexuals have done to marriage, they are still within the definiiton. To PJ, yes Christianity is not everyone's belief, but all of the major religions do not condone homosexual marriages, so stay off that soapbox, stick to what most posters are complaining of, that is that our right to the belief that marriage consists of a man and a woman is being mocked by this current ruling. Again why are my rights less than a homosexuals rights? Bash me, but not the gays? I don't bash anyone, I just state my beliefs. "
To All continued wrote on Jul 2, 2008 1:38 PM:
" To Jeff and Jared if you are reading this post, I am posting an apology to both of you for calling you narrow minded, but must explain why I did. You both attack anyone who states a difference of opinion in regards to anyone who dislikes the change to marriage law. Watchdog Fred and myself, both pretty vocal in our distaste for the ruling, haven't been attacking gays, but rather the ruling. Provide the homosexual couplings with something that provides them with the same rights that a marriage provides me and you, but just don't call it a marriage license. Do not force the rights of a few down the throats of the many, please be respectful and acknowledge our rights and beliefs also. Some people may quote the Bible, I don't because I am not that conversant with, but do belief in God, and never will I profess that mine is better than yours, because I follow the doctirne of actions speak louder than words. I pray that heavan has room for all of the good people whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, and that hell is large enough to accomdate the hypocrites. "
jeff wrote on Jul 2, 2008 1:59 PM:
" TO ALL, Please tell me how calling it marriage removes your rights? No one is saying you have to start marrying men. If your argument is that they should have all the same rights just call it something else do you realize you are then just arguing over a word and nothing else? Do you really believe this is not childish and petty? I believe religion is an evil tool used by men to control men, is it against my rights that religion is not made illegal? No, that would be unconstitutional. "
Mag wrote on Jul 2, 2008 3:24 PM:
" Thanks PJ. And to Rebecca in Texas: please remember that not everyone subscribes to the stuff about which you write. Not everyone cares what a Bible says, or any other guide to life. I know things are "differnt" in Texas, but that doesn't make it right to not let anyone and everyone be with and contracted to the person they most care about. I have no idea who Sodom and Gomorrah are, so your argument is pretty moot with some of us here, mostly me. Just let people do what they want if it doesn't materially affect you. And I can't imagine how gay marriage would affect you. "
To Jeff wrote on Jul 2, 2008 3:59 PM:
" Yes it is my right, as a religious belief which is covered by the constitution. My relegious belief and the majority of religious beliefs, which makes us an even larger majority, is that marriage is between a man and woman. So now you are trying to deny me constitutional beliefs. Why do you try to come back with such lame counter-attacks such as I am not being forced to marry a man, how do you know my gender? I think you might have meant same gender, but even that aside, I do not feel threatened by the homosexuals, but rather their disregard to honor my rights and beliefs. You appear set in your way, and I know and am proud of the way that I am set in mine. Nobody will ever convince me that gay marriage is the correct way to address the issue of equal rights. "
Rebecca Patterson-Kmet Texas Retired Pharmacist wrote on Jul 2, 2008 8:12 PM:
" TO MAG: Noah warned people for 120 years about coming disasters they had no interest in hearing. He was laughed to scorn for building an ark that saved his family when ALL OTHERS perished. You say to let people do what they want when it does not affect others. Homosexual marriage does affect others since that was the cause of God's judgment of the earth six thousand years ago. Your lack of interest in the Bible is tragic, but that does not make the Bible less authoritative. The Bible is God's love letter to the people of the earth to learn about Him. To ignore the sovereignty of God is to go to a place of darkness and torment and memory and intense heat and terror forever after you die. Homosexual marriage will bring judgments on the earth you cannot imagine since you do not read the Bible. Read the first five chapters of Isaiah and Ezekiel ch. 38. America is part of Israel (Manasseh) and will burn.The young men will die in wars and the women will be raped and bald (nuclear war radiation) and taken into captivity UNLESS the nation repents of sins and fast. "
Rebecca wrote on Jul 2, 2008 8:17 PM:
" TO MAG cont'd: The judgment of America for sins such as gay marriage could be THIS YEAR. Premier Putin of Russia just consulted with the European Union about Russia and Red China attacking America because they think America caused the earthquakes in Red China with HAARP over the horizon weather weapons. Putin told the EU not to interfere when America is attacked, possibly this year. Read Noah Hutching's July 2008 newsletter "Prophetic Observer" to get a clue on the dangers America is in. The coastal cities will be nuked after an EMP attack that puts out the electricity. Prepositioned troops will attack water supplies. This has happened already in many places. 24 water wells east of Reno, NV, and in Fallon NV were poisoned with POLONIUM-210, a rare radioactive isotope. Dairies had to pour out the milk. That may have happened in many other places that have not tested their wells for polonium-210. Repent and pray and seek the Lord while He can be found, you fool. "
Oh My wrote on Jul 3, 2008 12:17 AM:
" Maria, just making sure I understand what you are saying here...I am a member of a "righteous, holier-than-thou religious groups and other extremists who have a need to focus on any group as being inferior and the “target” group of the moment."? And you want me to vote against an "act" that would eliminate the legalization of gay marriage? Because the elderly can't live together due to pension and social security rules? You betcha! "
Oh My wrote on Jul 3, 2008 12:18 AM:
" History Buff, I love my friends and relatives too! That is so cool! "
III wrote on Jul 3, 2008 5:42 AM:
" Gay marriage is WRONG!!!!!!!!!!! yes I can quote Bible verses one by one, but those who have their minds made up ,that it is ok to marry same sex is SICK !!!! That is not a mere statement, but fact!!!!!! You SICK people!!!!!!! "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 3, 2008 11:32 AM:
" I don't know who posted this, but want you to know I concur 100% with what you've said; in the interest of boredom I won't reprint all of your comment but I invite those in the know meaning my dear friend Alejandro and other Christians who do not support this to read your entire comment:
To Jeff wrote on Jul 2, 2008 3:59 PM:
" Yes it is my right, as a religious belief which is covered by the constitution. My relegious belief and the majority of religious beliefs, which makes us an even larger majority, is that marriage is between a man and woman. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 3, 2008 11:43 AM:
" Jeff you are so into bible quotes so I am looking some up for you today:
The Bible, Malachi 2:15
You were united to your wife by the Lord. In God's wise plan, when you married, the two of you became one person in his sight.
New Interpretation:
You were united to party (b) by the Lord, In God's wise plan, when you married, the two of you became one person in his sight.
Does that mean party (a) and party (b) now become party (c)?
I'm totally confused now. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 3, 2008 11:48 AM:
" Jeff something worth reading:
God sent His only Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins.
Jesus is the Son of God. He lived a sinless life and then died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. “God demonstrates His own love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”
Jesus rose from the dead and now He lives in heaven with God His Father. He offers us the gift of eternal life -- of living forever with Him in heaven if we accept Him as our Lord and Savior. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by Me."
God reaches out in love to you and wants you to be His child. "As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe on His name." You can choose to ask Jesus Christ to forgive your sins and come in to your life as your Lord and Savior.
No one comes to the Father except by me: "
To Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 3, 2008 11:53 AM:
" Thank you for posting part of my reply To Jeff. I respond to many posters with the To and then their "NAME". As mentioned on another blog I corrected you about how you and I have similar beliefs when you responded to someone else who commented using the same name that I had started in that blog. I don't provide my name, perhaps out of cowardice, but I do believe that I can share my beliefs, and again you and I are usually on the same side. I was also the person who responded to you when asked about Islam. My point that I always try to say, and hopefully I am not providing a view that you do not agree with it, we believe in respect for all people, but that respect is a 2 way street, but it seems those of us who oppose a one way street are always called the racist, hate mongers, etc. I do not know your heritage and have never challenged on such, I read more for your point of view, of vhich you and I are almost always the same. "
PJ wrote on Jul 3, 2008 12:00 PM:
" Qoute" Yes it is my right, as a religious belief which is covered by the constitution. My relegious belief and the majority of religious beliefs, which makes us an even larger majority, is that marriage is between a man and woman. "
Yes its your right to "believe" that marriage is between and man and woman and its your right to practice that, but its not your right to take away civil liberties of others.
Example: There are plenty of KKK that believe whites shouldn't marry blacks and it is their right to "believe" this but its not there right to enforce it on others
Everyone clear?
Again Rebecca stop with all the crazy talk you get no where with us heathens. "
PJ wrote on Jul 3, 2008 12:01 PM:
" One last thing Rebecca the only one scarred of god are you who believe in him so quoting death and destruction to non believers does nothing. Your only speaking to those who already believe what you do. "
To PJ wrote on Jul 3, 2008 1:02 PM:
" Your posts are very articulate, so what part of democracy don't you understand? You mention the KKK, but I don't believe that they are a majority like my post says that the majority of people fall into the major religions whose beliefs are that marriage is between a man and a woman. So how can you try to equate that to the feelings of relegious beliefs? I guess I should ask for the Muslim Umah take you out and have you stoned for being such an outspoken woman, but then that is a presumption of mine that you are a woman. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 3, 2008 1:03 PM:
" To To Watchdog Fred - Iunderstand why you don't use your name, I inadvertantly put my last name in one blog and the bloggers ran with it. Which is fine, I won't say anything on this blog I am not willing to back up. After all for the most part this is a forum, forums contain many varied opinions and just like everyone else I am entitled to my own. Just as you are entitled to yours.
You and I do have similar beliefs and my ethnicity is really not important, I am just one who is well beyond middle age and have experienced enough life to know I am closer to the end than the beginning of it for me. As some of the younger bloggers attain that level they will be much wiser and more knowledgeable, I am sure.
As for you, it seems you are wise beyond your years and polite enough to show extreme self control and you always contribute intelligent, articulate conversation which I always admire as the number one quality of a friend. I do consider you my friend even, if we never meet. "
Rebecca wrote on Jul 3, 2008 1:15 PM:
" TO PJ: Only the Lord can save people eternally by choosing them. Many are called but few are chosen, the Bible says. God chooses. What I do is to make a public declaration of my faith as a witness of my faith that God gave me. I have no interest in converting people since that is not something I have the power to do. Only God can call and choose. If you do not confess Christ before men, He will not confess you to His Father after death. So I have publicly confessed Christ whose Father chose me, so that Christ will confess me to the Lord after I die. What you and other unbelievers do or do not believe is not my problem and there is nothing I can do about it. You have chosen eternal separation from God and He has chosen eternal separation from you. I prefer the good things after this life and am therefore thankful God chose me to be a part of His family. As Joshua said in the Bible, You must choose for yourself. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. "
April wrote on Jul 3, 2008 1:38 PM:
" I'm so very grateful that the whole state isn't as close-minded as our way too conservative town is..... Yay for equal right! "
jeff wrote on Jul 3, 2008 1:38 PM:
" Fred,
Quoting Bible scripture to me as a way to teach me morals is pointless, I do not believe in God or the Bible therefore you are just regurgitating gibberish to me. As PJ astutely points out when you do this you are only speaking to people who already believe in what you do. This does nothing to change the minds of people who do not follow your beliefs. Your Bible quotes – for example – are meaningless to me because as far as I am concerned the Bible holds relevance over nothing. There is a quote that keeps getting passed around “Yes it is my right, as a religious belief which is covered by the constitution. My relegious belief and the majority of religious beliefs, which makes us an even larger majority, is that marriage is between a man and woman.” You have the right to believe it and practice it but that is the only right you have. "
To To Jeff wrote on Jul 3, 2008 3:29 PM:
" wrote on Jul 2, 2008 3:59 PM:
You say that "I do not feel threatened by the homosexuals, but rather their disregard to honor my rights and beliefs." Could the same be said that they do not feel threatened by the hetrosexual, but rather their disregard to honor their rights and beliefs. "
here we go again wrote on Jul 3, 2008 10:19 PM:
" They are already getting married now and gay supporters are still yapping about it and their disgusting parades. I can't wait to vote to stop this sick and disgusting thing. It is just plain wrong. People can pretend it is not not wrong, judges can make up fake rights, but we all know this is "wrong" and the voters will set this straight. Even the Democratic party votes primarily against gay marriage, even Bill Clinton did not support it and he is a true pig himself. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 4, 2008 12:46 AM:
" This is my last comment for now on Atheism, it seems to me that it's much easier to be an atheist and not believe, than it is to have faith and believe.
A moral person always takes the high road and immoral one does not, I refuse to allow you to try and pull me down to your level any longer. So if you want to respond to my comments from this time forward that is up to you, but I reserve the right not to provide service to those who can't respect my beliefs the way they want me to respect their non-beliefs. Which makes absolutely no sense to me because if you don't believe in anything what is there to respect.
Dean Martin use to say about an alcoholic you know the worst part about being a non-drinker? His reply is because when you wake up in the morning that is the best you are gonna feel all day long. I equate that to being a non-believer, you never progress, you never feel better anytime during the day because you have no faith to feel better/even healed. . "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 4, 2008 12:54 AM:
" I do have one other question for you, when people are terminally ill, and then overnight they are healed and a cancer is gone or a heart problem suddenly isn't there any longer, when all the physicians and others in science have given up. How do you explain that miracle? Were the doctors and scientists just wrong in their evaluations or was their a divine intervention? Since you don't believe, the doctors and scientists had to have been wrong, correct?
When you here of someone narrowly escaping an accident/life threatening event is that just karma surrounding them and protecting them Jeff? I think these are fair questions, and I refuse to answer anymore of your questions until you start answering some of mine. This is a forum a two way street and you want to control how it goes, well that stops here and now as far as I am concerned. The moderators are the only one's who should control these web site blogs. So either participate on an even keel or direct your rediculous questions elsewhere. It's not fair to the other bloggers to monopolize the time here. "
Barbara Nadal wrote on Jul 4, 2008 9:27 AM:
" Great letter Maria. It took guts to write that letter and publish your name along with it. I stand behind everything you have said. This is about equal rights and I hope they keep their right to marry. "
dose wrote on Jul 4, 2008 4:05 PM:
" This message is for all the christians:
Some of us don't care what your god says about anything. If you don't like gay marriage then don't marry a gay person. It is as simple as that. Leave the rest of us alone. "
Maria Holdren wrote on Jul 4, 2008 10:21 PM:
" The overzealous religions fanatics do not follow the new testiment. I believe in God, but I also believe in my heart this right the LGTB is wanting is no different than the slaves wanting to be free, women suffrage wanting to vote and women wanting equal rights, equal work with equal pay without sexual discrimination. These groups were in the minority when they fought for their rights. In this nation, you have fight for equal rights and those who oppose them are those who already enjoy all the rights and privileges , the power elite. They in fact are a minority, but rich. The statement that they should have accepted what was offered, means the Jews should have accepted persecution from both the Romans and the Germans and every other group that has been persecuted in the world. It's funny how most of the writers who want to quote the bible, etc. are not adult enough to publish their names. You'd rather hide behind the bible and take shots to anyone who has a different opinion. The good book replaced the old testiment with love,and tolerance of all God's children "
Melissa wrote on Jul 5, 2008 5:07 AM:
" Before I am anything else I am a human. I am not an alien; I am a member of the LGBTQ community and an American. I know that not everyone agrees with my orientation and I accept their opinions. However your opinions cause a pain and it is wrong. Minority stress is an awful thing to live with, if you ever have you can relate. I don’t need to try to understand what the African Americans went through during their civil rights movement, I can empathize. I did not choose to be within this orientation, I knew at a young age, and to see friends discriminated against is disgusting. To read that a gay man was beaten and hung on a fence to be left to die is inhuman. To hear that a LGBTQ person was dragged through town repulses me. I do not hide my orientation because it is a huge part of my lifestyle, I will hold my partners hand in public, but there are times we have to hide because we don’t know the crowd. You see at least in recent history the African Americans had signs to warn them…we don’t. Religion has killed enough people in "
Melissa-Continued wrote on Jul 5, 2008 5:12 AM:
" ...the earth’s history; does it need to kill anymore? Jesus once said he who has no sin cast the first stone…I wonder if those murders were sinless?
Gay marriage won't go away in November, the fight is one worth fighting. I"ll even go beyond human rights and pitch the money issue...homo marriage will generate a lot of money in California...I think the money issue alone is a reason all in its own...So if you can't vote for gay marriage because of personal reasons...do it for the duty of your state. Our state needs us to stand together and fix our economy and schools. How would you feel if someone took your marriage away from you? Don't vote ignorant in November!!! "
jeff wrote on Jul 5, 2008 12:18 PM:
" “A moral person always takes the high road and immoral one does not,”
It does not take a PhD to figure this out but when does believing in God automatically make you moral? There are many examples on this site by you Fred where you choose to not take the high road.
“I do have one other question for you, when people are terminally ill, and then overnight they are healed and a cancer is gone or a heart problem suddenly isn't there any longer, when all the physicians and others in science have given up. How do you explain that miracle?”
This has never happened so there is nothing to explain.
“So if you want to respond to my comments from this time forward that is up to you, but I reserve the right not to provide service to those who can't respect my beliefs the way they want me to respect their non-beliefs.”
All this statement says to me is you know you can’t win this argument and have chosen to give up. "
Amanda R wrote on Jul 5, 2008 11:22 PM:
" If homosexuals have a right to write their letters, publish their opinion, and put their beliefs in our faces, then we Christians should be shown the same respect. Maria, do not compare gay rights with the human right to not be "owned" by another person. Last I checked, God said homosexuality was a sin, he did not say that it was a sin to be of a different race. Tolerance for people does not mean tolerance for sin. My aunt is bisexual but I haven't disowned her because of it. As far as your argument that I'm hiding behind the Bible, last time I posted my last name, I had quite a few uninvited calls to my home. So that's that.
If everyone else can post their opinions, so can the religious people.
Jeff, let it go. At some point someone has to be the bigger person and stop the bickering. "
jeff wrote on Jul 7, 2008 1:00 PM:
" Amanda, “Jeff, let it go. At some point someone has to be the bigger person and stop the bickering.“ So by posting a comment and continuing the bickering you are trying to tell all of us you are not the bigger person? "
Amanda R wrote on Jul 7, 2008 5:26 PM:
" I was saying that Watchdog is taking the high road. I'm not "bickering" like you do. I stopped that when I was in high school, a whole three years ago. I have only been stating my opinion. "
jeff wrote on Jul 8, 2008 7:18 PM:
" Amanda, how is Fred taking any high road? So your position is this, when I state my opinion I am bickering but when someone states an opinion you happen to agree with it is not bickering? When someone who you agree with calls people names and writes at length about subjects that have nothing to do with the article being discussed this is considered perfectly fine with you? What should I expect really? You tell me that the OT no longer counts yet you follow the Ten Commandments and use verses from Leviticus to prove that homosexuality is wrong. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 8, 2008 8:43 PM:
" Jeff,
I see the alter ego Jeff has determined that miracles are impossible because he hasn't witnessed one yet. Perhaps you haven't witnessed a miracle because in order for them to happen you have to believe in God.
When someone in your family is sick who do you pray to Satan? Please Devil do what's totally not in character and save this person, I can just hear you Jeff.
Perhaps when it is your time, you will say your first prayer for forgiveness and save your soul, I certainly hope so, even though we don't agree, I wish the brimstone path to no man/woman.
But by the same token it is my job as a Christian to acknowledge that I do accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and have for many many years. I'm not perfect by any means but like other Christians I am forgiven for my imperfections. That was what the Lord's son died for was for all of our sins to be cleansed as long as we shall believe in him. "
jeff wrote on Jul 9, 2008 10:34 AM:
" Fred, I have no idea what your point is when you mention me having an alter ego. My regular ego - the one I use all the time - does not believe in miracles and I submit that no one on earth has ever witnessed a miracle. There are many discussions regarding this all over the internet, you should try reading some of them. When someone in my family is sick I do not pray, ever. Praying is useless, I could pray to God or a macaroni salad with the same percentages of successful and non-successful prayers answered. I do not believe in the Devil, what is so hard about this for you to get Fred? I do not believe in imaginary beings that no one has ever seen, talked to or felt. Jesus did not die for me, I have never sinned in my entire life and I will not be punished for anything after I die. "
Not so mad in Nevada wrote on Jul 9, 2008 6:03 PM:
" Jeff- when you say that you have never witnessed a miracle... you apparently never seen the birth of any living creature whether it be a human child or an animal? That in itself is a tremedous miracle. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 10, 2008 1:38 AM:
" Jeff - for your sake I hope you are right, but all I can tell you is in my 58 years on this earth, I've seen many miracles and one was just pointed out to you, birth itself is a miracle if you can't see how it is then I truly feel sorry for your unfeeling self. Quite obviously you haven't experienced a child or your own being born or you would not feel the way you feel. You've not held in your arms a baby you and someone procreated and felt the feeling of love so strong in your life that you feel nothing or no one can ever break it. You've never had the feeling of your child asking you for guidance and help in making decisions Jeff if you've never experienced these things then you do not know what it is to live yet. I once again feel so sorry for your meager existance on this planet and how little you will take away from it, how little knowlwedge you will impart to your children because before you can teach you have to know what and how to do it. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 10, 2008 1:44 AM:
" Jeff - and you are very wrong my friend, you have sinned, everyone on this planet has sinned and one day will answer for it, you can take that to the bank. If it's anything I know it is that fact. I truly feel for your family if you do not pray for them when they are ill because that means you have left their care in mere mortal hands and that isn't always sufficient to heal them. So if you are such a non-believer why were you placed on this earth? Why did your mother and father conceive a child if not to teach them the way of the world and bring God into your life. We are on this planet to procreate now what good does that do if you teach blasfamy and non-belief. Your existance if their wasn't a forgiving glorious God makes no sense Jeffrey. Otherwise you would not have been procreated, don't kid yourself, God has a plan for you, you just don't realize it yet. You just don't see it yet, George Karlin was an Atheist too, but he was placed here to make others laugh. "
jeff wrote on Jul 10, 2008 11:21 AM:
" Not so mad and Fred – I have witnessed births and they are not miracles. A miracle has to happen outside of nature and births do not qualify. Fred, if you want to discuss this further you can email me at kcoreye@yahoo.com I am going to give everyone here a break and stop responding to you on this thread. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 10, 2008 5:15 PM:
" Jeff - no thanks see you at judgement day before the one who truly can declare a winner. But I did write down your email just in case I get bored at some point. "
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