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Valley dealt a last-place national ranking in quality of life

The United States has long been known as the richest and most powerful country in the world, with its $14-trillion economy, fat paychecks and research universities studded with Nobel Prize winners.

But not all parts of the country are equal. While some investment bankers and traders in Manhattan's Upper East Side rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, farmworkers in the Central Valley toil in the heat and dust making minimum wage -- oftentimes with no benefits.

A nationwide study released earlier this month put the San Joaquin Valley's 20th Congressional District dead last in quality of life, according to life expectancy, education and income. The district includes portions of Fresno and Kern counties, as well as all of Kings County.

"There's a lot of uneducated people here," said Sandra Guillen, 30, a respiratory therapist from Hanford. "What do you expect in a place where you're taught to work first and then go to college later?"

The study, "The Measure of America," which is published by Columbia University Press, provides a measure for the well-being of all Americans based on education, income and life expectancy. The figures, which come from U.S. government sources, are computed for each of the nation's 436 congressional districts. The districts are then ranked. The Valley's 20th District is last, but just a three-hour drive away is the fifth-ranked West Los Angeles' 30th District -- from the Malibu coastline to Beverly Hills and West Hollywood -- a star-studded area that is home to entertainment industry brokers and producers.




Only 6.5 percent of residents in the 20th District have a bachelor's degree, the study reported. By comparison, 56.8 percent of West Los Angeles residents have a bachelor's.

The median annual income -- for those holding part-time or full-time jobs -- in the Valley's 20th District is $16,767, the lowest in the nation. By comparison, residents of Manhattan's Upper East Side, which is part of New York's first-ranked 14th District, earn the highest income in the nation at $51,139 a year. Their residents live on average 4 1/2 years longer than residents in the Valley district, the study reported.

"Some inequality is fine for motivating people to achieve," said Sarah Burd-Sharps, a co-author of the study and former deputy director of the human development report office of the United Nations Development Program. "But extremes of inequality are not good for those at the bottom and very bad for our society as a whole. It's demotivating and can breed despair and bitterness."

She added many of the Valley's 20th District's residents have limited futures.

"Thousands of people have limited opportunities and choices," she said. "They aren't able to be productive citizens and reach their full potential."

Kings County's limits are obvious to Sylvia Contreras, 16, a local-area high school student. Most of her friends, who are her age, work for near minimum wage in restaurants or markets.

"Sometimes we want to go to the movies but we can't because there's not enough money," she said.

She knows many "bright" straight-A students who won't be able to attend four-year universities.

"It doesn't mean that they're less motivated," she says of her friends who will instead attend junior colleges. "I just don't see their parents giving out $40,000 or whatever it costs for their children to attend universities."

But those friends hope to one day attend the Ivy Leagues, Stanford or University of California campuses and earn a master's degree.

Such hopes come in spite of their parents who often work in the prisons or farms dotting Kings County. Most of their parents only have a high school education or less.

Income and education aren't the only problems. Neither Contreras nor her parents have health insurance. Her father is self-employed, and her mother works for a food company. For her parents, Contreras says private medical insurance is prohibitively expensive, and they make too much to qualify for MediCal. They're the unlucky few stuck in the middle.

"We can't buy anything," Contreras said. "As a result, we don't just go to the doctor."

But some residents disagree with parts of the study, saying Kings County offers a good life.

Incomes may be low in Kings County, they say, but you don't need much to live off of compared with, say, Manhattan, Silicon Valley or West Los Angeles, areas that the study ranks in the top 10.

But Burd-Sharps notes that even though residents in Manhattan's Upper East Side make roughly three times more than those in the Valley's 20th District, the cost of living difference is less than three times apart.

Low-income isn't the only reason why most Kings County residents don't have a bachelor's degree. Some note the lack of educational institutions in Kings County, explaining its low college graduation rates. There are no four-year universities in the county, and there are only two junior colleges, both of which are satellite campuses. By comparison, Manhattan is home to Columbia University, Silicon Valley has Stanford, and West Los Angeles has UCLA.

"There's not enough schools to do more training, which you need to get a higher paying job," said Richard Bryant, 33, an electrical splicer from Hanford. "There's not a lot of opportunity. Kings County is mainly agricultural land."

A few hours' drive away, however, are arguably the world's best public universities. But many of Kings County's residents don't take advantage of them.

"While California has excellent public colleges, if you're earning $16,000 a year, you won't likely be able to afford a public college education," Burd-Sharps said.

Some mention that the study doesn't say everything about Kings County's lifestyle.

"We're near Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Park," said John Whyte, 49, a maintenance officer from Lemoore.

Boston, New York, Washington, D.C., Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego regions have many of the top-ranked districts and many of the amenities that attract the rich and educated -- top-ranked hospitals, famous universities, high-paying jobs, four-star restaurants and worldly museums.

But Whyte says he doesn't like big cities. He prefers the quiet and peaceful life in Kings County.

Having peace, however, has a drawback. Most of those interviewed said Kings County lacks job opportunities.

"The best jobs are in the prisons," said Alex Torres, 23, a substance abuse counselor from Avenal.

The reporter can be reached at 583-2423.

(July 29, 2008)

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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

Tony M. wrote on Jul 29, 2008 12:02 PM:

" makes sense "

Melissa wrote on Jul 29, 2008 12:13 PM:

" While there are both good and bad aspects to living Kings County, I don't think it deserves such a low ranking. There are things like sense of community and lack of stress that aren't taken into account. Also, to compare rural areas to urban ones is unfair. Of course job opprtunities in a farmland rich community are going to be different than those in Manhattan!
We do need to focus on providing a livable wage and health insurance for all, but this is a national problem.
For those who want an education the junior colleges here provide an opportunity to get an AA or transfer to a four year college where loans , grants, and scholarships are available. A student can also get a BA at Chapman. The complaints sound like excuses to me. "

Alan G. wrote on Jul 29, 2008 12:21 PM:

" Ha! Take that Appalachia! "

dose wrote on Jul 29, 2008 12:37 PM:

" I think Melissa is the one making excuses. But anyway it's nice to see my decision to leave Hanford being vindicated. "

Joke wrote on Jul 29, 2008 12:50 PM:

" There is a well known joke on campus at Fresno State and COS. If you want a parking place, wait until the financial aid checks are given out and you can park anywhere. It is not that people do not have the opportunity. They want to live off the Welfare Society and that mentality is keeping them stuck.

Get their Welfare grants, take the food card to the market and buy a basket of Cokes, Carna Asada meat, a load of corn tortillas and you have a business. Go to the markets that stay open until midnight and see what the Welfare moms are buying. $300 worth of food to subsidize a taco stand.

But they have no money, report no earnings and keep that money coming in from Welfare.

Their children see that, they are not going to college, what for? If you work, you pay taxes, you get low wages, the only jobs are in the prisons.

The local government makes decisions for builders and want to eliminate recreation + opportunity for low income. It goes on and on. A vicious cycle. "

To Melissa wrote on Jul 29, 2008 12:56 PM:

" Lack of stress? Get real! No money to pay the rent? High stress! Child sick, can't go to the doctor, no money, High stress! Child has asthma and can't breathe, but we have to have fireworks, its a quality of life issue. No stress there either.

Low income means high stress. The people who have these problems are not listened to and there is no one in government here in Kings County that is on their side. There is no new Si Lakritz waiting in the wings to fight like he did for people who do want more out of life. "

denny wrote on Jul 29, 2008 1:32 PM:

" SOUNDS ABOUT RIGHT TO ME...If you lived anywhere else you would see that clearly "

A Politicians Perception wrote on Jul 29, 2008 2:26 PM:

" We may be the worst place to live in the country but at least we can pretend like we don't. "

dolly wrote on Jul 29, 2008 3:24 PM:

" the cost of living is low in the central valley. if you have a job or in a career path in the prisions - the salary is comparable or more than a person who works in a computer based office in silcon valley; therefore a person working in the prison earning power in the central valley is much higher than in silcon valley. the medical, vacation, retirement package is alot better than a person in the santa clara valley. so working in the prisons is a blessing re: the wage situation - and not a low paying job as stated in the article. "

Carl Spackler wrote on Jul 29, 2008 3:49 PM:

" It was a bid of an odd study comparing us with NYC. The fact remains we have a lot of problems here.

We are going backwards in wages and the only jobs we are getting lately are restaurants and 99 cent stores.

Air quality is horendous and it makes it difficult to attract doctors and other upper management to the area.

We have many quality of life issues in recreation, parks, pools, bike lanes, walking trails. These are things that attract and keep professionals and our kids.

I could go on and much the issue is lack of any strong voice in Sacto and Washington to protect our region. We are a forgotten people. We haven't had a person with guts there since Tony Cohelo and I'm not even a democrat. Maybe Devin will get it done. "

AC wrote on Jul 29, 2008 3:53 PM:

" I'm glad I got out, when I go back to visit the parents I'm amazed to see people working the same jobs they did when I was in high school. I guess when you got some thing good don't let it go, even if it is just a convenience store cashier. The stifling air and heat also stifles the human spirit and mind. If your still their after 20 years get out to see other parts of the country (not just Pismo Beach) and the world and you will see how much this part of California truly sucks. "

Melissa wrote on Jul 29, 2008 4:16 PM:

" Here's the thing...The people working at convenience stores and other low wage jobs would be doing those jobs anywhere they might live in California, but the cost of living is lower here as well. Where else in California can you buy a decent house for 200,000? Take that same house and move it to one of those "nicer" places and you can double or triple the price.
Of course people who are poor have stress, but they would be under stress anywhere. Read my whole reply, don't just take a couple of the things I said out of context because you are bitter. If you don't like things. Do something about it instead of complaining. "

Bottom of the Barrel wrote on Jul 29, 2008 4:22 PM:

" I don't know what that study is talking about. Kings County is a wonderful place to live. Just go sit on one of those benches inside Wal-Mart and watch all the beautiful people who live here. Oh, and the oil slicks in the parking lots in Kings County, you don't find those just anywhere. "

Mrs.D wrote on Jul 29, 2008 4:23 PM:

" Let's see: the people who commonly dislike this place are usually Navy people(derrrr, Support Our Troops). I always hear how much they hated being stationed at NAS(this was back in the '70's and '80's)and that there was nothing to do, it's hot and it's boring. However, a majority of them managed to retire here and live out their lives here. Or if they do transfer elsewhere, they always say how much this wish to be back in Kings County. I've heard this many times before. Hanford/Lemoore are nice places to live and raise a family. I've been to Southern California and lived there for a long time. I'm glad we're back.

For those of you who have left; Thank you! This areas intellectual rating has jumped up! "

Joe Friday wrote on Jul 29, 2008 4:52 PM:

" I would urge those that purchase a copy of this study. It not only compares life in all 436 Congressional Districts but how our country stacks up against other industrialized nations.

Among the information found within it,,,

Despite spending $230,000,000 an hour on health care, Americans live shorter lives than citizens of almost every other developed country. While it has the second-highest income per head in the world, the United States ranks 42nd in terms of life expectancy.

The US has a higher percentage of children living in poverty than any of the world's richest countries. The report shows that 15% of American children - 10.7 million - live in families with incomes of less than $1,500 per month.

The richest fifth of Americans earn on average $168,170 a year, almost 15 times the average of the lowest fifth, who make do with $11,352.

The US also ranks first among the 30 richest countries in terms of the number of people in prison, both in absolute terms and as a percentage of the total population.
We have 5% of the world's people but 24% of its prisoners. "

Stuck here for Now wrote on Jul 29, 2008 5:05 PM:

" I can't wait to leave Central CA... It till sucks here. But, I am trapped, got a family situation keeping me here. Also I have one of those high paying prison jobs and one of those low mortgages. So, I am stuck for awhile. I can't wait to leave. I just got back from the Bay Area... What an awesome place. I look forward to heading up there... "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 29, 2008 5:19 PM:

" I know how to reverse this entire mess in a heart beat. Let's start charging $20 a bunch for green onions, $30 a head for lettuce, we can Charge $50 for a package of 4 tomatoes. We'll be out of this mess in no time. $30 a gallon for milk. We are still the breadbakset of the world, just no one but us realizes it anymore. We need to keep jacking up our prices and making the world pay more for their cheap vegetables and milk. Then we could live just like those folks in New York City. Sometimes people sacrafice for the benefit of others, the valley has traditionally done that. We throw in Yosemite and Sequoia National Forest almost for free. We need to do like other states start setting up toll booths and end all this free way stuff. We can overcharge our way right on out of this, but then the planet would starve to death and we could be horrible horrible people for allowing that to happen. It's about time some of these hard working back breaking farmers became a shiek. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 29, 2008 5:20 PM:

" Hey Carl Spackler perhaps if we had a City Council that thought Industrial rather than retail we might get somewhere. "

James McManus wrote on Jul 29, 2008 5:27 PM:

" I came here from San Diego eight years ago and fell in love with Hanford.
In S.D. the crime rate is overpowering, choppers overhead at night, carjacks in broad daylight in the malls, the border is wide open, government is historaclly crooked, etc., etc.
Here, it's like a Rockwell painting.
Little or no graffitti, an involved people caring about the city, honest law enforcement, nice clean town.
Yes, with an Ag business base, we are not, nor are we training the next generation of merger/leverage experts or sitcom walkons.
But we like it here, thank you very much. "

Devils Advocate wrote on Jul 29, 2008 5:50 PM:

" Folks, its all about resources and transportation. Of course we look bad compared to port cities like New York, Boston, Seattle, etc. - A port is like a comercial highway to the entire world! We've got great agricultural resources but, because we're walled in by mountains, we have have few ways of getting goods in or out. Ask anyone in Economic Development - large businesses are interested in access to interstates and rail service. Billions of dollars come into, circulate inside of, and transfer out of port cities. The more money circulating in a local economy, the more prosperous you become. The ag producer ($$$ INJECTED into local economy) buys from the grocer buys from the barber buys from the mechanic buys from the part store buys from it's employee buys from Walmart ($$$ leaves local economy). If we ship anything in or out, we help enrich port cities. Additional modes of transportation to MORE locations (shipping canals - too slow & expensive, more highways - smog, rail - maybe) can help, instead we use our second resource - labor. Specifically, Correctional Officers. Macro Econ 101. "

NYC wrote on Jul 29, 2008 5:52 PM:

" The rats in NYC are bigger than the cats. Some people are afraid to leave their apartment buildings because the rats outside eating the garbage will growl at you. Comparing Kings County to Manhattan is not a fair comparison. When a terrorist is able to sneak in a nuclear warhead into the US and detonate it , you can bet it will explode somewhere in downtown NYC. I doubt if they will explode it near Superior Dairy. And when that happens, where does that put NYC? Right up there with Chernobyl... "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Jul 29, 2008 6:06 PM:

" Carl, you said:

"Air quality is horendous [sic] and it makes it difficult to attract doctors and other upper management to the area."

Doctors are upper management?

Upper management is concerned about air quality?

What about other professionals, and skilled workers? Or do you consider those two groups the only important one we need to attract into the area?
-------------------------------------------------------------

And I am pretty sure that Ms. D said - fairly recently - she was leaving the area in another blog or forum (or words to that effect).

Now she says: "I'm glad we're back."

Wonder what changed her mind?

-------------------------------------------------

Alan G. - Great rejoinder! "

Henry wrote on Jul 29, 2008 7:23 PM:

" High five to Mrs D and Melissa!

The only fair way to do a survey like this is to compare how many people are on Prozac in each city and devide by population. "

SJT wrote on Jul 29, 2008 7:43 PM:

" Theme song for "Deliverance" comes to mind. "

Lack of Education wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:30 PM:

" This explains why we have so many ignorant people responding to the blogs. It is common knowledge that people who lack education tend to be more close minded, prejudiced, and judgemental. All traits that have been rampant in this blog. Also, people who lack education tend to be more fanatic in their religion, which explains the constant references to the bible. Despite those people, the valley is centrally located and still affordable for the middle class American. If you can find a way to earn a decent living, enjoy the proximity, travel alot, and continue to help educate promting tolerance and the need for a good education. "If you are in poverty, there are only two ways to make a living: welfare and crime and crime has more prestige. "

Want to go to college wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:33 PM:

" My wife and I both didn't have money to go to college. We got student loans and went anyway.

Now we've returned to the valley, hold good jobs and are going to raise a family here.

Sure we have to pay the loans back, but it's not like we got into debt so we could purchase a 72" plasma screen. We bettered ourselves and experienced the world.

If anyone in the valley wants to better themselves, they can. They just have to decide they WANT to do it. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 29, 2008 9:07 PM:

" If it's so God awful bad here then how did we go from 30,000 to 51,000 in the matter of just a few years. Something is attacting people to this local?
To those of you who say you are stuck here, we don't want anyone to feel stuck here, so please don't think you have to stay on our account. Go ahead on to the Bay Area or wherever.
Isn't Pelican Bay in the Bay area I'm sure you could transfer, if your good enough. "

Jim D wrote on Jul 29, 2008 9:54 PM:

" The areas low ranking is really quite simple, it's all about jobs and education. In this area, the highest paying obtainable jobs are in corrections. The corrections folks are good people, don't get me wrong, but you don't need a college degree to get hired. For people outside of the corrections field, widely available good paying jobs requiring a bachelors degree or higher just aren't there. We have quite a number of low paying, no higher education required jobs available and this directly translates to our youth not pursuing a college degree or higher education. Speaking of higher education, if I have to hear one more person say that they "Can't afford to go to college" I think I will puke. Every single able bodied person is eligible for student loans which will pay for college. I must repeat the key word here is "loan". If a person wants to pursue a career requiring a college degree and is willing to pay (repaying those student loans after graduation), it is available. If people are unwilling to attempt college unless it is free (grants, etc) then they have no one to blame but themselves. "

Carl Spackler wrote on Jul 29, 2008 10:25 PM:

" Alejandro: It is very difficult to attract doctors here. They look at schools, quality of life, air quality, housing options. Good wages and low housing cost is often not a big enough carrot.

I was involved with a CEO search a few months back. Suffice it to say, our air quality issues are widely known and it was hard to even get someone to come out and look.

So to answer your question, yes those thing matter to someone considering relocating to this area. "

Carl Spackler wrote on Jul 29, 2008 10:28 PM:

" Fred:

Hint: check birth rates. "

Mrs.D wrote on Jul 29, 2008 11:16 PM:

" RE:Henry, We lived in a town 120 miles east of San Diego. It was a hot, horrid place that literally had nothing except 2 State prisons, an FBI office, US Magistrate, a Federal Courthouse, a JC Penny's on one side of town, a Mervyns 2 miles west of the JC Penny, and no bookstore(no B.Daltons, Waldens or Barns and Noble), and a Navy base where the Blue Angels came for winter training. No one could tell you the cost of living, not even city leaders! Education was the worst and there were too many people with money spending it in San Diego, making the town we lived in poor. Hanford and Lemoore has it all; we still are nice towns with kids who are learning something and going to college. Basically, all of you people complaining right now, are the unhappiest. Go somewhere else to live. You won't be missed. "

deb wrote on Jul 30, 2008 12:11 AM:

" Comparing urban areas to Kings Co has no meaning. But the numbers don't lie and speak volumes for comparable areas. Take other rural areas and compare. Yes, there are other areas in CA that are still rural and don't cost an arm and a leg to live. But, like any area which relies upon one major industry to carry the burden (yea, I know... there's LNAS which contributes a great deal to the economy) then there's going to be issues. Agriculture is where this valley gets it's bread and butter with regard to the economy, but without education there will be very little other industry growth - there can only be so much retail in a low income area. This area could easily have put in place the infrastructure to attract hi tech, but that's not going to happen. Brain drain upon an area can be devastating - Kings County and the 20th Congressional District is the result. Oh and WDF - Pelican Bay is way north... As in, near the CA/OR border (Crescent City) no, I'm not associated with CDC in any way. "

bear wrote on Jul 30, 2008 12:12 AM:

" it makes no since why people complain about the town they live if they dont like it you should leave and the moving to the coast lol you all end up back here cause you cant afford the cost of living there.but for melissa thta girl knows whats shes talking about. "

Warden Bob wrote on Jul 30, 2008 6:57 AM:

" In this blog we continue to read about people being upset that this area of the Valley is being compared to the Bay Area and NYC. Many have written about the comparative cost of living between these three places and how while we may have low wages so too is our cost of living.

The real comparison and area of concern should not be the comparison between us and major metropolitan areas but rather other rural ones. Why are we so far behind other rural areas of our state like Yuba, Shasta, Yolo or Sutter Counties?
What about rural areas of other states, why are we so far behind them?

People need to really take note about the fact that there is much more to this study than just 3 places. What about the quality of life and cost of living in places like Red Bluff, CA. What does a home cost there? Make all the excuses you want, what we need is new thinking that will improve peoples lives. "

Love it wrote on Jul 30, 2008 8:05 AM:

" I also LOVE Hanford....when i go to Bakersfield for a visit i start to get anxiety..i hate it. I feel safe and secure here there are things to do all around this place. Rivers, lakes , mountains. I mean cmmon! Yeah, i didnt go to college right away but im going now and im more serious about it this time around. We will be living the good life in no time! I cant wait to pick a beautiful house from the MANY great neighbordhoods around Hanford. I dont have to think okay i cant live cus someone might shoot me....I love Hanford and we will reitrre here! "

Valley girl wrote on Jul 30, 2008 8:09 AM:

" My job has taken me all over Kings, Fresno and Tulare County. What an eye opening experience! After seeing towns like Richgrove, Tipton, Pixley, Huron, Traver, Earlimart ,etc, I have a whole new appreiciation for Lemoore/Hanford. Clean, friendly, safe, green grass, homes taken care of. I could go on and on. I enjoy my cute little town of Lemoore and it's tight knit community of people who care.
Also, I too have lived in San Diego for 8 years and although the ocean is wonderful I would take my small town over a big city any day. I can drive 2 hours to the beach! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 30, 2008 11:13 AM:

" Carl here is the result of my findings, which backs up what I said earlier.

U.S. fertility first dropped to less than replacement level fertility in 1972,11 and by 2002 had dropped to a record low.19 (Replacement level fertility is 2.1 children per woman because of infant mortality - see terms). During most of the 1970s and 1980s women gave birth to fewer than 2 children on average, a rate insufficient to replace the population.11, 12 Because of population momentum, U.S. population would have increased to 255 million by 2020 and then gradually declined.11

You will be supporting more people on Social Security than your total population by the time the last baby boomer born in 1964 retires.

Those are the facts Carl. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 30, 2008 11:33 AM:

" Carl here is the result of my findings, which backs up what I said earlier. (Continued)

It's a coming financial implosion that Washington hasn't mustered the will to confront. Fixing Social Security solely with higher taxes or cuts in spending would mean a 16% increase in the payroll tax or a 13% cut in benefits. Medicare's needs would be far greater: a 122% payroll tax hike or a 51% reduction in spending, just for hospital care.

Now do you still think I know not what I speak there Mr. CEO headhunter? I had headhunters coming after me when I was down south to change positions, funny thing was whenever I wanted a change, I'd put out my feelers and before you knew it the offers came rolling in. I didn't require the headhunter's services. Besides I knew the strengths of competition and where to go and not go the headhunter's don't know those things. "

Former Hanford resident wrote on Jul 30, 2008 11:38 AM:

" I was born and raised in Hanford and as a child through young adult, loved it. It was very small and you could literally leave your screen door open all night and not have to worry about someone trying to break into your house. I even used to walk clear across town to go to church or over to a friend's house to play. If a policeman stopped you, it was to make sure that you were going straight home, especially if it was late at night. It truly was an incredible experience and I wouldn't have had it any other way. Now, 30 years later, Hanford has become a large city but there is still little opportunity for those who live in extreme poverty. it's become a "have" or "have not" type of town. That is the main reason that I left because there really wasn't anything for me to do except work as a farm laborer or at a fast food place. I truly could not have handled that forever. For those people who have somehow survived, I commend you. For those of you who are unhappy, do something about it. It's not that hard. "

To Lack of Education wrote on Jul 30, 2008 12:16 PM:

" Lack of education, maybe your very educated but you just made the most ignorant post of all time. Just because people dont adhere to the liberal way of thinking being shoved down the throats of students all across America doesn't mean theyre uneducated. The problem is people like you think your new social progressive way of thinking is better than those of the past. This country was at its best during the 40's & 50's... and the new socialistic era with be it's demise! Look no further than Sacramento, where liberal politicians continue to make a mess of things no matter how much money they get. Youre the one who's uneducated... because youre to naive to be pragmatic and realize what's really hurting America is your unrealistic socialist way of thinking! "

Carl Spackler wrote on Jul 30, 2008 12:27 PM:

" Fred: I'm not sure what you are responding to with those stats, but my comment about "check births" was in response to your comment about how the population in Hanford goes from 30,000 to 51,000 in a couple of years. (It's actually taken more than a couple years but I get your point) What is happening here is more about birth rates than people moving here. That is another reason the average age is trending down (kids). "

ex-hanfordite wrote on Jul 30, 2008 1:12 PM:

" To NYC:

Yes its true that Hanford will not likely ever have a nuke go off in Superior Dairy....but with the Navy Base nearby, its definitely a strategic target for terrorists.

As for quality of life issues: I grew up in Lemoore-Hanford in the 60's and 70's and came back by accident in the late 1990's after college and having a career in big city. I would have chosen life in the valley in the 60's over the present time. I Its sad because the Valley iis a shadow of what it was and what it could have been. I don't live in the Valley anymore and I don't miss it. "

Glenn wrote on Jul 30, 2008 1:45 PM:

" I was born and raised in Hanford, but have been living in Silicon Valley for the past 25 years now. The reason I chose to stay in the Bay Area after graduating from San Jose State University was due to the lack of jobs that were related to the degree I earned in graphic design back then. Although there's a ton of things to do here in Silicon Valley and it's located close to San Francisco, Santa Cruz, Monterey, etc. there's also the downside of living here in the form of massive congestion, exorbitantly high housing costs, and a lack of that certain sense of community one has in the Central Valley. I don't regret choosing to stay in Silicon Valley after graduating from college, but I do long for the slower pace, lower cost, and feeling of community I remember from living in Hanford. I hope to move back there again someday, perhaps continuing my current career working remotely over the internet while enjoying the lifestyle of living in Hanford. With today's technology, living in Hanford doesn't necessarily mean having to settle for working for lower wages simply due to location. "

Wyn wrote on Jul 30, 2008 3:06 PM:

" I've lived in many places in California including the SF Bay Area, LA, Orange County, Sacramento, and Chico. I have family living in Hanford/Lemoore and quite honeslty, I find the area truly undesirable. The air quality makes So. Cal's look good. The weather is hot and smoggy in summer and fogged in during winter. The job market is awful and the average person is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. If you are happy there, good for you. If not, GET OUT and go someplace that offers you a better quality of life. "

Carl Spackler wrote on Jul 30, 2008 4:43 PM:

" Fred: A new moniker for me today, Carl the CEO Headhunter. LOL. Sorry, that was funny.

I'm not a CEO headhunter. What I think I said was that I was involved with a CEO search. I was part of a group. The group started with locally then had to go statewide/national to find someone. I was surprised how hard is was to get someone here and the criteria that the prospect looked at on the net before even making their decision to come here and look. It was an eye opener. Same story with the docs the hospital is trying to lure here in anticipation of the new facility. "

Devils Advocate wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:58 PM:

" Warden Bob, good thinking. Glean the info that makes good comparative data and learn from it. Find out why we underperform all other things being equal, and we may be able to do something about it. Now, anybody have a link to that report? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 30, 2008 6:21 PM:

" To: Carl Spackler, I'm not a CEO headhunter.
Carl, you took part in a group looking for a CEO, that classifies what you did as a CEO headhunter. As for the Doctors coming here to fill the Hospital, it was my understanding that with a contractual agreement with "Loma Linda Hospital" we will be getting some of the best minds in medicine training here in Hanford. These Doctors will be under the direction of such Doctors as Dr. Raj Reddy, Dr. Verma and many more excellent and highly sought after physicians. Many Doctors who have participated in similar programs have then opted to locate here. So I find misstruths with your statement and your knowledge of what attracts and doesn't attract professionals here. Dr. Reddy donated a million dollars last year to the University of Merced to help failitate the training of Doctors, did you miss the article Carl?
There is a shortage of trained medical people in case you haven't heard. Doctors, Nurses almost every category of medicine. Could that also be contributing to the difficulty? The VA in Fresno is having trouble finding replacement staff because of this shortage. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 30, 2008 7:02 PM:

" Valley Girl - you hit it spot on and the siutation doesn't look any better in Mendota, Five Points, Los Banos or any number of communities around us. Hanford and Lemoore have always been the safe bedroom communities. I preface that with the original Lemoore City Council that was wise enough to bring NAS Lemoore to our community. When you have warriors in your midst the crime rate stays in check. Our little cities are greener, friendlier and happier than any of the smaller or larger surrounding communities. I hear what you are saying about Richgrove at one time I had to go there twice a week. It reminded me of crossing the border from San Diego to Tijuana in my old navy days. Another thing people haven't brought up is the valley hasn't been bombed twice by terrorist either. If the success of having a large financial community is the destruction of it, I think we will pass on that one. Manhattan in order to make prices seem lower have started selling Apartments by the square inch instead of square foot, suprisingly you can't buy one square inch. "

DL wrote on Jul 30, 2008 9:08 PM:

" There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Costa's district is not a perfect square and does not represent the quality of life in the Hanford/Lemoore area. It was drawn create a safe democratic seat and dilute the generally conservative Hanford/Lemoore vote by adding in very low income areas in north Kern and south Fresno counties. Also, this district encompasses the inmate populations of half a dozen prisons in Kings, Kern, and Fresno counties. I would assume that the prison populations severely drag down the average income, education, and life expectancy. This might not be the best place in the country but it is definitely not the worst. Especially Hanford and Lemoore. Don't get too depressed about this people. "

Mr. BullPup wrote on Jul 30, 2008 11:46 PM:

" Life is good here man. I don't need to so no high fallutin' study telling me it's bad.

You can't cruise Tavio's in NYC.

Nobody is discussing the milk can in NYC

Our teenage pregnancy rate is still tops in the nation.

We got an awesome meth problem.

Instead of builidng a UC here years ago, we lobbied for prisons! We don't need them latte drininking, thinking, pretentious PhD, liberal anti-American wanna be thinkers influencing our young people.

Kings County Fair rules!

They're just jealous of our Tri-Tip! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 31, 2008 12:12 AM:

" I heard they were gonna give us a higher score but they heard the news of the City Council trying to uproot the city pool and remove it from Gotham City, especially when it was learned the Joker himself was gonna hi-jack the "Sakte Park" and the "Old Fire House" as well. Bat Girl said Serpa's Auto Sales was gonna become a place to dismantal stolen cars. By the time the Police Commissioner here's of this it will be too late. To the top of the civic to turn on the Bat Light! "

The Oracle Says... wrote on Jul 31, 2008 5:57 AM:

" Its somewhat deserved....California is hostile to new business,high tax rates and going higher, 15 BILLION in debt with an economy that rivals other NATIONS, and liberals run amok with new laws to "save us" like no new fast food restaurants or banning food ingredients. All this while hospitals are closing due to non paying illegals, courts clogged with illegals and California paying cadillac welfare benefits to anyone who can get here with a pulse. So do we "deserve" a low ranking? Maybe...But when the cost of living is greatly lower in any other state, and business' can boost the bottom line net/net by 50% jst by going into Nevada, its cyclic. Business' leave which drops tax revenue, so they raise taxes, which causes taxpayers to move, then they raise again, and more business' leave, until the only people left are illegals who dont pay taxes. Thats why we are where we are..15 BILLION in debt. Calif Govt can no longer support all of this. As my father always said, "one day the rubber is going to meet the road on all this." I believe it has come now. "

The Anti Right winger wrote on Jul 31, 2008 9:20 AM:

" The Oracle Says... wrote on Jul 31, 2008 7:57 AM:
" Its somewhat deserved....California is hostile to new business,high tax rates and going higher, 15 BILLION in debt with an economy that rivals other NATIONS, and liberals run amok with new laws to "save us" like no new fast food restaurants or banning food ingredients.

If it was so bad in ALL of California Oracle why is this congressional district rated so much lower than other rural areas in this state? They seem to be doing pretty well in comparison. I guess it is easier to finger point and blame liberals than to have our local leaders (Democrats & GOP) look in the mirror and ask where they went wrong.

You love to rant against liberals but the fact is that many of those socialist countries in Europe are doing better than us economically. The quality of life and life expectancy is higher than here. We can rant and dismiss facts or study and adapt what works better, the choice is ours. "

Carl Spackler wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:12 AM:

" Fred: Ok, you win, you can call me a CEO headhunter if that makes you feel better.

The Loma Linda program is a rotation of students that work under Dr. Engeberg.

Again, while I can't get into what I do for a living, (not a ceo headhunter) I can tell you that it is difficult to attract and keep docs here. "

sobretor wrote on Jul 31, 2008 3:19 PM:

" If this is a problem...please consider going back from where you came from...do us all a favor.. "

LiberalsConservatives BlahBlahBlah wrote on Jul 31, 2008 7:15 PM:

" It makes me laugh when a conservative tries to blame all our problems on liberals- grow up and understand that the so-called liberals AND so-called conservatives are both part of the same system and both to blame. I don't see many politicians from either side taking ethical stands on behalf of the "people". I see a bunch of corrupt people perpetuating a corrupt system.

Concerning illegal immigrants, why throw stones at them when most are here for a better life. Better to blame the people who employ illegals instead of our fellow citizens- WHY DO THEY EMPLOY ILLEGALS INSTEAD OF OUR OWN? Because it's dirt cheap! When people talk about patriotism, it makes me laugh. Easy to place a "Support our Troops" magnet on the back of your car but when it comes to doling out jobs, instead of paying a fellow US Citizen the patriotism goes out the window. This includes the "salt of the Earth" farmer who uses labor contractors as their shield from accusation. "

jim love wrote on Jul 31, 2008 8:24 PM:

" wow who would have thouhgt a place with hellish weather, horrible air, no major colleges, bible thumpers would make one of the worst palces ever to live. Dang sitting here in Cayucos with great air, collegs etc. I want a recount "

John wrote on Aug 1, 2008 3:15 AM:

" Well I mean if its so bad here leave, But for these "votes" i mean who votes people who don't live here? people who don't have to worry about min wage jobs? For a lot of us this is our home and it will never feel like a bottom rung place to be. "

Central Valley wrote on Aug 1, 2008 7:18 AM:

" Drive through Avenal, Kettleman City, Stratford, and Huron. They all have something in common and look pretty bad to me. "

The Oracle Says... wrote on Aug 1, 2008 8:49 AM:

" I think I just read correctly that the "anti-right winger" is advocating socialism.....No surprises, this is where liberals want to take us.....The government knows best how to raise your child, spend your money, and tell you whats appropriate to eat. They also reserve only for themselves (Feinstein) the right to self defense in carrying concealed weapons laws, while at the same time working gun grabbing schemes and laws. Hillary said in her campaign, she was going to FORCE us to pay for health care....Garnish our wages she said. Obama voted for a United Nations scheme to tax us to pay for global hunger. Thats right, IRS collect taxes for the UN to pay for global hunger (Oliver North article)..1% of the U.S. economy. This is incremental socialism and either we put our foot down or face the music. Im just glad that a liberal has the courage to say it outloud..but then again, that may be a problem in itself that they feel comfortable espousing it aloud. Socialism, communism, all the same. You want that, then move to wher they practice it..like China, et al. "

Mr Truth wrote on Aug 1, 2008 11:30 AM:

" Our air quality is crap. When my family moved to Fresno from San Jose in the 70's....you could SEE the Sierras AND the Coast range everyday.
Has anyone been to Fresno lately? It's a toilet.
I believe Kings County is a nice place to live.
I will take Hanford over Fresno anyday. "

Tony Mani wrote on Aug 1, 2008 11:39 AM:

" High crime rate in San Diego? Really? Actually the crime rate is at a 40 year low, and one of the safest large cities in the nation. Check facts before you blurt out comments like that. Are people really trying to compare Hanford and San Diego and concluding that Hanford is better? Am I not picking up on your sarcasm? Comparing the two cities is laughable! More job opportunities, cleaner air, beaches, mountains, and most importantly: nice people that also have a "sense of community"! I still have friends that live there though.

Hanford: A nice place to visit!

Crime rate citation: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/16909350/detail.html?rss=dgo&psp=news "

to oracle wrote on Aug 1, 2008 2:15 PM:

" Oracle,

What gives you the right to tell a United States citizen they should go to China? We need all viewpoints except for the fascist one that wants to eliminate the voices of others. Even you, as hysterical as you sound, have a right to your opinion.

When you fall into this cliche position of liberal vs. conservative, you are just the parrot "they" are both looking for and need to keep keeping on.

We need to work for a compassionate/fiscally responsible liberalism because whether you like it or not, liberal is where we are headed in California. The Democratic majority is only going to continue to grow and grow.

Will we be led by corrupt slicksters like Gray Davis or Fabian Nunez or Don Perata? Will we allow a union of uneducated oafs, called correctional officers, to continue their role of playing a huge factor in public policy? Will we elect another celebrity unqualified to lead (I know it was either him or Cruz!)? Let's see............ "

Tony P. wrote on Aug 1, 2008 3:53 PM:

" Why do I get the feeling that Fred and Carl are a couple of ex Hanford City or Kings County beaurocrats sitting on fat pensions and their social security. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Aug 1, 2008 5:02 PM:

" Tony P. surely you jest. Niether one of us would have taken the cut in pay there Tony. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Aug 1, 2008 5:04 PM:

" Someone just said:

"Will we elect another celebrity unqualified to lead (I know it was either him or Cruz!)? Let's see............ "

You finally recognized that Barack Obama is not qualified to lead us!

Thanks for the shot at reality, finally!! "

Carl Spackler wrote on Aug 1, 2008 5:16 PM:

" Tony P.: I don't know about Fred, but that does not describe me. I'm just a local dude, born in Sacred Heart Hospital, delivered by Dr. Brookshier, Jefferson/Woodrow/Hanford High/COS/Fresno State alum, married to a local girl and am a 50-something Hanford business owner in consulting and large consumer of Superior Ice cream. For kicks I follow local politics and recently found the Sentinel message boards. Oh, and I'm a taurus. "

Joy to Hanford wrote on Aug 2, 2008 4:01 PM:

" The quality of life is so poor that is why two hanford teens were arrested for passing counterfeit money in Paso Robles.

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/breakingnews/story/428847.html "

CJ wrote on Aug 2, 2008 4:26 PM:

" I lived in the Area for over 20 years... It is high paced, and stressful. i'm a single parent, and barely could make ends meet.
i lived in Kings County for 5 years now. It is quiet, and i have more money then ever before. Being a single mom, life is simpler here.
Yes, i know it is a poor area to live. However, my quality of life and my son's has improved! These bigger cities are so much more expensive. It is constant go , go , go. Working over 40 hours a week, and never seeing your kids. That is the way people live . It is even a higher cost to pay that money will never make up for.
Infants, and small children growing up in daycare centers, and being more bonded to their providers more then their parents. This is what it is like in the so called more rich cities.
Having money and not able to ever be with your childern is what many Bay area families sacrifice. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Aug 2, 2008 10:42 PM:

" To Oracle: I need to chat with you is there a way I can reach you besides on line, Maybe Jackie could set up an offsite meet for us. I need to discuss a county issue with you in private.
If we can work it out, I'd very much appreciate your input. "

BBD wrote on Aug 3, 2008 3:13 AM:

" The problem with the valley is it's leaders. With it's citizens electing officials with no experience, i.e. VanDerPoel, there will never be any real change. How could a community elect a 20 something young man with zero experience into a city council position and expect good things to come. Clearly his goal is to puff his resume and move onto Sacramento, no one can honestly deny this. Also, city leaders are being brought up for criminal charges, and this has happened multiple times, i.e. Hanford's previous Mayor(s). Look at other ag. communities such as Sutter County, they are far above the valley. We need to initiate change starting with those who have the ability to do so. We have no one to blame but ourselves (our those whose vote was bought by dairy money.) Hanford and surrounding towns are stuck in the Good Ol Boy mindset, and don't expect change until true leaders are elected. VOTE people, and actually pay attention to what the candidiates true ambitions are. "

BBD wrote on Aug 3, 2008 3:21 AM:

" Also, I find it amusing that people in the Valley choose to buy overpriced SUV's etc, however live in dumps. Where are people's priorities, when an individual's car payment far exceeds their rent or house payments, clearly there is a problem. Bottom line, unless your family has a dairy or acres of ag., the people of the Valley will always have a poor condition of life. I urge all the people rich or poor, next election take the time to research and vote for those who truly care and want to better the community. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Aug 3, 2008 6:30 PM:

" Count me in for that offline chat or meet, Watchdog.

I would like to talk/email with you also.

And back on this topic:

It was said that "Most of those interviewed said Kings County lacks job opportunities."

I see all sorts of jobs advertised locally or within commuting distance, so I'd like to have some input from the posters here as to:

What job opportunities exactly do we lack? "

The Oracle says.. wrote on Aug 4, 2008 12:56 AM:

" "to the oracle" ...Your obviously right. We need to just roll over and give up, because you guys won. We just need to let socialism run its course, because after all, its California...riiiight??? Sorry bud, not in my world, nor in my lifetime. California is predominately conservative when looked at by county. Its the large liberal cities that kills the votes of conservatives. Too bad we just can have liberal cities, and let the rest of us live in peace from your socialist views. And yes, if you dont like living within this country's views, then by all means move to where you are most comfortable..and if thats a socialist/communist country, so be it. I like how you couched your statements with "compassionate, etc. The only thing you left out was the liberal mantra of "its for the chiiiiiildren." No sir, I will continue to fight with all the tools at my disposal against liberal/socialist agendas. You are entitled to your views..just dont try to impose them on others. Unfortunately, liberal democrats want to make us all kneel at the altar of socialism. "

The Anti Right Winger wrote on Aug 4, 2008 4:09 PM:

" The Oracle says.. wrote on Aug 4, 2008 2:56 AM:

No sir, I will continue to fight with all the tools at my disposal against liberal/socialist agendas.

So Oracle which charity will you be donating your social security check to????? Will you not be using Medicare and paying for 100% of your own insurance when you are 65????

In addition you make statements like "California is predominately conservative when looked at by county." Having spent quite a bit of time in N. California I would say that you are off base in that statement. I would not call people in Napa, Mendocino, Marin, Amador, Del Norte, Shasta or Humboldt County conservative by and large. In fact it is our south valley area and urban Orange County that are the bastions of conservatism in this state. "

The Oracle says.. wrote on Aug 5, 2008 12:01 AM:

" ...Yes anti right winger...you are correct in that I will not be depending or utilizing the meager social security funds to live on in retirement. And as far as donating anything to those who wont work, IE welfare, I use the mantra of "do you like to eat? Then you better get a job." As far as looking at red vs blue counties, at least on a map, there are far more red counties than blue..Its just the major population cities that negate the conservative vote, but thats the way it is in politics. My whole point is that if you want true socialism, then move to where it truly exists in all its forms. Dont try to change my country to your socialist views. I and others like me will resist in every conceivable manner. I am not a socialist/communist, nor will I ever be...and god forbid that your ilk ever try to IMPOSE your will upon us. You wont be happy with the outcome "

The Anti Right Winger wrote on Aug 5, 2008 11:05 AM:

" The Oracle says.. wrote on Aug 5, 2008 2:01 AM:

"Dont try to change my country to your socialist views. I and others like me will resist in every conceivable manner. I am not a socialist/communist, nor will I ever be...and god forbid that your ilk ever try to IMPOSE your will upon us. You wont be happy with the outcome "

Oracle when we as a nation adopt some form of national health insurance just as every other industrialized nation on earth, will you leave? The health care system in our nation is no longer defensible. We spend the most per person yet are near the bottom (42nd) of all industrialized nations in life expectancy.

Oracle your above post sounds very much like a threat against the democratic institutions I put on the uniform of this nation to defend. Please don't question my patriotism because we disagree politically. It is the habit of despots and fascists and I would not like to believe you are either. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Aug 5, 2008 12:30 PM:

" To Anti-Right-Winger, I for one will not be donating my "Social Security" checks to anyone but my immediate family. I have been paying into it for a long time by having jobs that pay me and require me to pay into it. Just because it's name is Social Security doesn't make it completely "Socialist". Now for all the others that have paid in a cent, then stay away form it. It was meant to take care of the ederly that worked because of the shrinking size of households and the number of people that would be able to support their parents in old age. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Aug 5, 2008 12:35 PM:

" To Anti-Right-Winger, about National Health coverage, check out the facts, look at England, only those that can't afford to pay for a private doctor use it because it is a failed system. Our medical system isn't failed, it is all of the frivolous lawsuits that make doctors need to spend more and more on insurance to cover them that keep rising the cost of medical care. Don't use Moore for your source as all of his films are biased towards his beliefs rather than complete facts. What is really hurting America is supporting all of the dead weight that does not contirbute to overall health of America, whether they be permanent welfare recipients or illegals who do not contribute and worse even are those who employ the illegals so they can make bigger profits. "

The Oracle Says... wrote on Aug 5, 2008 12:38 PM:

" ...Question your patriotism? No, but how can one be a "patriot" and at the same time advocate a socialist agenda? Socialized medicine..No thanks. I have seen how that works and I really dont want to wait 5 years for an "urgent" surgery, like happens in Canada and other "industrialized nation on earth." Want to start changing medical costs? Get rid of lawyers like John Edwards who sue doctors for malpractice (ps, is he still hiding in the bathroom from the media over his love child?) Threat against my country? Are you a moron? Can you not understand what I wrote? You have no idea who I am or what I do. My country comes first. I and others who care deeply about it, will not allow socialists/communists/aliens or whatever comes along to hijack what has been built on the blood of those who have gone before us. Im guessing you would know more about fascists than I..Its one of those "ist's" like "socialist". Me, Im an American and a patriot. I advocate no changes to my system of government. "

The Anti Right Winger wrote on Aug 5, 2008 3:08 PM:

" Oracle you fail (again) to address the real issue in our health care system in this country, the lifespan of our citizens.
You continue to parrot the arguments of FOX news regulars like Shawn Hannity and Bill O'reilly against national health insurance. If people in those countries in Europe and Asia can expect to live a longer and healthier life than us, just whose system is broken?

The cost of health care is breaking US companies. Health Insurance costs for current and retired workers added to the cost of products like automobiles are making them uncompetitive. Japanese and European automakers are not burdened with this expense keeping their overhead lower. If we are to level the playing field for US companies, Health Insurance for all must be addressed. Call it socialistic if you want but it is a fact. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Aug 6, 2008 2:07 AM:

" Alejandro - you got it, you might want to check some of the other blogs, I've been putting out some info you may be interested in learning about. But the meet sounds fine with me I'll contact Jackie and see if we can't set something up. "

The Oracle says.. wrote on Aug 6, 2008 2:52 AM:

" I parrot nobody. I speak my own mind..always have, always will. As for calling it "socialized medicine", well yeah..if it walks like a duck, and smells like a duck, Its a duck. Socialism or socialized medicine is not the way to fix things. Why do you think Canadians come to the US for healthcare and surgeries? Because they cant wait 5 years for urgent care. Its communist collective farming all over again. If a farmer (or Dr) gets paid the same money regardless of how much he grows (or patients seen), whats the incentive to grow more crops (or see more patients or do more surgeries)? Its the same liberal crap over and over. "We need socialism to fix our ills"...yeah right, like a hole in the head. Socialism/communism does not work, never has worked, and the only people you hear espousing these idiotic view are LIBERALS. Gee, wonder why we are 15 BILLION in debt in the socialist republic of Kalifornia? Oh, thats right, because Kalifornia is controlled by liberal Democrats, giving our money away to those who wont work, like socialism huh? "

FOD wrote on Aug 6, 2008 9:15 AM:

" Part of the problem a lack of adequate higher education within a reasonable distance. COS has been forcing themselves down our throats when we have what we need at west hills. What does COS have for us? Vocational education? We can get trained to work at Stabucks? WHC has progressive leadership that has created partnerships with 4 year universities. How can our young people get creative and generate a new way of life when those that have created the old ways will not let it go? Growth does not mean more buildings, it means expanding the minds of the people. If we can't grow intellectually or culturally, then we stagnate. Thanks to our legislators, county, city and colleges, we are in last place in a very embarassing position. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Aug 6, 2008 3:36 PM:

" The Anti Right Winger says this:

"...the real issue in our health care system in this country, the lifespan of our citizens."

CITIZENS?

So does that mean we don't have to pay for the millions of NONCITIZENS who are basically illegal squatters?

I don't know of ANY country that guarantees a citizen's lifespan.

This must be a new socialist goal methinks. "

The Oracle says... wrote on Aug 7, 2008 12:00 AM:

" ....just making a further point on socialism.....Just read the latest headlines about Hugo Chavez and his attempts to "socialize" his country. His citizens are now rioting over these attempts...He has nationalized a whole host of his country's infrastructure. You want to see what socialism is all about, just track Hugo Chavez and what he is doing. Its the very same thing that liberals here are advocating. Keep that in mind when you vote "

The Anti Right Winger wrote on Aug 7, 2008 11:51 AM:

" ALEJANDRO wrote on Aug 6, 2008 5:36 PM:

"I don't know of ANY country that guarantees a citizen's lifespan."

Alejandro is it your opinion that our government should have no concern with the health of its citizens? Is this how far the right wing has gone in it's anti government rhetoric? I have always felt that patriotism was about making our country the best it can be and that includes improving the quality of life of its citizens. If you feel differently I guess we will just disagree on that point. "

The Anti Right Winger wrote on Aug 7, 2008 12:15 PM:

" Oracle I would suggest that you quit comparing the Canadian health insurance system with a true government run system as they have in Germany. The problems with the Canadian system are grounded in the fact that it is not a true national non-profit system.

In Canada each Provence runs its own system of insurance (think Medical). Doctors continue to work for themselves and not the government. Hospitals are not always run by the government. Wait times for services are due in part by the need to make a profit. If a health care facility cannot turn a profit it might not not be built just as in the USA.

One area that the government does take an active role in is pharmaceuticals. They negotiate deep price discounts for prescription drugs and pass along the savings. This is something that the Bush Administration has prevented our states from doing even though the Veterans Administration does for its medical facilities.

The bottom line is that the Canadian system is not based on the model most European countries use. As such comparisons are simply not valid, but you won't hear that on FOX news. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Aug 7, 2008 12:44 PM:

" To Anti-Right Winger, again you skirt the question. Alejandro asked you to name one country that guaranties the lifespan of their citizens? He also asked if you are stating that universal health care is only for the CITIZENS? Universal health care is NOT the answer. Reducing outrageous frivolous lawsuits and making people pay for the treatment they receive is the answer. By allowing anyone to walk in and receive free services at my expense (both tax money and refusing me the same services as a leagl citizen who earns a living). "

The Anti Right Winger wrote on Aug 7, 2008 4:52 PM:

" NotHomeGrown wrote on Aug 7, 2008
Universal health care is NOT the answer. Reducing outrageous frivolous lawsuits and making people pay for the treatment they receive is the answer.

If we had the Universal coverage you decry, judgments in lawsuits would be reduced since the cost of a lifetime of medical care would not be at issue in a malpractice case. A single payer health care system would bring down jury awards considerably. According to the governments own figures, malpractice costs represent less than 2 percent of total health care spending.

Roughly 70 percent of health costs and deaths are attributable to smoking, obesity, and health problems that could be prevented.

Higher costs discourage people from using preventive care. One study showed that raising co-pays caused a significant reduction in the use of mammograms among people on low or fixed incomes. Other studies suggest that rising health care costs, especially for low-income families, people with chronic disease, or families that have children with special needs, deter patients from seeking preventive services.

By making preventative care and medical screenings more affordable we will reduce what we as a nation spend on health care. "

The Oracle says... wrote on Aug 8, 2008 7:17 AM:

" ...Tell you what anti right winger, if we agree to cut off all non citizens from this "free" healthcare, and I mean really cut them off, then I would agree to discuss the issue and work a compromise. But until that day comes, Its a moot point for me. I will not continue to subsidize illegals healthcare, etc etc... "

WATCHDOG FRED wrote on Aug 8, 2008 7:27 AM:

" You all believe what you want to about health care and the different systems. But I have to set one point straight right now. The Health Care System in the United States is not what is killing people/ What is killing people now is years and years of abuse to their bodies with alcohol, tobacco and fast food lines. It has very little to do with the care hospitals and doctors provide in this country. We are a nation of lazy obese people who don't want to give up anything for our health. Now you want honesty, that is as honest as it gets.
What I think would improve healthcare is to give everyone the benefits the Congress and Senate gets and call it part of the national debt to pay for it. We all pay into taxes, those of us that work or have worked so that would automatically qualify us. The only medical card that would be required is a valid Social Security Number. How simple would that make things? The illegals can't get real social security cards so what better plan to protect our insurance company. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Aug 8, 2008 9:10 AM:

" To Anti Right Winger,
You are again wrong. It is not the medical costs that make the frivolous lawsuits raise the rates, it is the additional "fines" in the award, to give someone millions of dollars for "pain and suffering" is what costs us all. In all honesty how many of us can expect to make "millions" of dollars in our lifetimes? I might make it close to the first million, but doubt I would make it multimillions. Universal health care again is not the answer. Part of the answer is affordable insurance and also not allowing companies to not provide similar benefits to part time employees that full time employess have (nothing wrong with prorating here). Why do so many people in those countries that do have universal health care seek our private doctors or even come to the states for treatment? Because competition usually means better treatment. If I get paid the same as you, then why should I do more than you? That is the problem with any socialist activity. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Aug 8, 2008 2:14 PM:

" ...Still waiting for "The Anti Right Winger" to answer my questions, but, I am afraid that there is no LIBERAL answer forthcoming... "

The Anti Right Winger wrote on Aug 8, 2008 4:22 PM:

" Alejandro what was your question? Was it about illegal immigrants getting free health care?

I would say that good public health policy would be that you would treat these people. The malady they may be suffering from could be a public health threat (think measles or worse) . As to what level of care they receive for non contagious or non life threatening disease I think that doctors should decide. They are the ones who took the hippocratic oath.

What would your alternative be? "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Aug 10, 2008 1:20 PM:

" Who will pay for universal health care? What is the liberal answer, in plain English please? "

The Anti Right Winger wrote on Aug 10, 2008 9:34 PM:

" Alejandro,

We all pay for health care now, under the current system we spend more than any other nation on earth,

2006 per capita spending on Health Care per country.

United States $5711
Australia $2886
France $3048
Sweden $2745
Japan $2249
Switzerland $3847

2006 Total Health Care Expenditures as a % of GDP

United States 15.2%
Australia 9.2%
France 10.4%
Sweden 9.3%
Japan 8.0%
Switzerland 11.6%
Source: Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

If other countries can spend less while their citizens live longer healthier lives why can't we? "

Charles wrote on Aug 11, 2008 11:11 AM:

" Health care will always be in issued because we are unhealthy people. In America and the valley we love to indulge. We live out of drive throughs and eat unhealthy foods and partake in many bad habbits that is not good for our well being. We are a nation of angry people who let too many things consume our daily lives and we probably medicate ourselves more then any other nation. These are all potential health hazzards that we can control ourselves. "

Charles wrote on Aug 11, 2008 11:20 AM:

" For those of you who don't feel that illegals are a problem and that the current welfare system is a good thing need to wake up. Part of our problem in this valley is current welfare policy and wave of illegal immigrants. The welfare idea is not bad, but where it has gone over the years is terrible. Not all people who seek this service are bad people trying to cheat the government, but there are many people who are and that problem needs resolution. What is wrong with having immigrants be documented, I mean all americans are documented with a number, so what is wrong with knowing who's comming over our border. Sure lots of illegals come here to work those jobs that I will not work at the wages "wages" that the employers pay, but alot of illegals come here and don't work as well and squat on our country and it's principles. We can't be united and not know who is among us. "

ALEJANDRO wrote on Aug 11, 2008 3:03 PM:

" Thanks for solving the problem, Anti Right Winger.

We all pay.

More...much more. "

WATCHDOG FRED wrote on Aug 12, 2008 8:58 PM:

" We declare war on a foreign country and it automatically becomes part of the national debt. Why can't we declare war on healthcare problems and make that a part of the national debt also? We as taxpayers paying for a healthcare plan ourselves. Simple those who haven't paid into it ie; social security are not going to receive the medical benefit. Cut and dried, very simple. If the bread winner in a family is the only one employed then as head of household he/she provides eligibility for the entire family.

We pay for so much uncovered health care now through hospital and doctor write off's that it would probably cover the cost of legal residents who are not receiving this same benefit.

Close our borders, close our healthcare, close our handouts and they will leave, plain and simple. Immigrants come here because they can't get it at home, if they can't get it here they will stay home. Simple grass roots thinking. "

WATCHDOG FRED wrote on Aug 12, 2008 9:13 PM:

" Hey Alejandro: If I move to Las Vegas, can I still vote in state and local elections with an absentee ballot? You know like the scholar does, I mean I am not even turning my back on the country I'm just moving over one state? Gee if I can't do that then I guess, he shouldn't be allowed to either from Switzerland, you know the Swisskid Tucker! "




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