jeff wrote on Oct 8, 2008 2:40 PM:
" 1. Children in public schools will be taught that both traditional marriage and same-sex marriage are okay.
The California Education Code already requires that health education classes instruct children about marriage. [§51890]
Therefore, if the definition of marriage is changed, children will be taught that marriage is a relation between any two adults. There will be serious clashes between the secular school system and the right of parents to teach their children their own values and beliefs.
This is a lie. The California Education Code will not be changed by the defeat [or passage] of Proposition 8.
The entire text of Proposition 8 [PDF] reads as follows:
ELIMINATES RIGHT OF SAME-SEX COUPLES TO MARRY.
INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT. "
jeff wrote on Oct 8, 2008 2:40 PM:
" Changes California Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry. Provides that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California. Fiscal Impact: Over next few years, potential revenue loss, mainly sales taxes, totaling in the several tens of millions of dollars, to state and local governments. In the long run, likely little fiscal impact on state and local governments.
The anti-gay forces are counting on voters not to read the California Education Code for themselves — so we'll be happy to read it for them.
The section of the California Education Code [§51890] cited defines a long list of terms as used in Chapter 5.5. Comprehensive Health Education, a.k.a. the Comprehensive Health Education Act of 1977.
Citing the need for 'an adequate health education program in the public schools,' this chapter focuses on education about, and prevention of, 'the abuse of alcohol, narcotics, and tobacco; emotional instability; forced marriage; self-medication; dental caries; nutritional disorders; suicide; and accidents,' as well as 'fostering in students an understanding of their role in protecting the environment, and in safeguarding themselves from other health and safety dangers which may be posed by hazardous substances.' "
jeff wrote on Oct 8, 2008 2:40 PM:
" There is only one reference to marriage in §51890, and it is this:
[1] Pupils will receive instruction to aid them in making decisions in matters of personal, family, and community health, to include the following subjects: ...
[D] Family health and child development, including the legal and financial aspects and responsibilities of marriage and parenthood.
In addition, a section of the Code the pro-8 forces conveniently neglect to cite, §51914, specifically prohibits arbitrary changes to the comprehensive health education program without extensive input and review: "
jeff wrote on Oct 8, 2008 2:40 PM:
" 51914. No plan shall be approved by the State Board of Education unless it determines that the plan was developed with the active cooperation of parents, community, and teachers, in all stages of planning, approval, and implementation of the plan.
And: §51890 itself mandates 'community participation' — defined in §51891 as 'the active participation in the planning, implementation, and evaluation of comprehensive health education by parents, professional practicing health care and public safety personnel, and public and private health care and service agencies' in 'all educational programs offered in kindergarten and grades 1 to 12, inclusive, in the public school system':
[3] The community actively participates in the teaching of health including classroom participation by practicing professional health and safety personnel in the community. "
jeff wrote on Oct 8, 2008 2:41 PM:
" Yet all of the above is moot, because the California Education Code already requires schoolchildren be taught respect for all committed relationships.
You read that right. It's in yet another chapter and section the anti-gay forces fail to cite, §51933, Chapter 5.6. California Comprehensive Sexual Health and HIV/AIDS Prevention Education Act, Article 2. Authorized Comprehensive Sexual Health Education:
51933. [a] School districts may provide comprehensive sexual health education, consisting of age-appropriate instruction, in any kindergarten to grade 12, inclusive, using instructors trained in the appropriate courses. ... "
jeff wrote on Oct 8, 2008 2:41 PM:
" Not 'must,' mind you, but 'may.' Note also the word 'elects' in the first sentence quoted immediately below; whether or not to 'offer comprehensive sexual health education' is left entirely to the discretion of the school district:
[b] A school district that elects to offer comprehensive sexual health education pursuant to subdivision [a], whether taught by school district personnel or outside consultants, shall satisfy all of the following criteria:
[1] Instruction and materials shall be age appropriate.
[2] All factual information presented shall be medically accurate and objective.
[3] Instruction shall be made available on an equal basis to a pupil who is an English learner, consistent with the existing curriculum and alternative options for an English learner pupil as otherwise provided in this code. "
jeff wrote on Oct 8, 2008 2:41 PM:
" [4] Instruction and materials shall be appropriate for use with pupils of all races, genders, sexual orientations, ethnic and cultural backgrounds, and pupils with disabilities.
[5] Instruction and materials shall be accessible to pupils with disabilities, including, but not limited to, the provision of a modified curriculum, materials and instruction in alternative formats, and auxiliary aids.
[6] Instruction and materials shall encourage a pupil to communicate with his or her parents or guardians about human sexuality.
[7] Instruction and materials shall teach respect for marriage and committed relationships. "
jeff wrote on Oct 8, 2008 2:41 PM:
" Thus, the California Education Code will not be changed by the defeat of Proposition 8. The Code already includes the very thing the anti-gay forces are trying to make you think looms on the horizon.
On a related note, the anti-gay forces really hope you won't read Chapter 5.6 in full, because it annihilates the argument that comprehensive sex education [including accurate information about contraceptives] cannot exist in harmony with 'abstinence-only' teaching:
[8] Commencing in grade 7, instruction and materials shall teach that abstinence from sexual intercourse is the only certain way to prevent unintended pregnancy, teach that abstinence from sexual activity is the only certain way to prevent sexually transmitted diseases, and provide information about the value of abstinence while also providing medically accurate information on other methods of preventing pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases. ... "
jeff wrote on Oct 8, 2008 2:41 PM:
" Dropping down past points 9 through 12[a]-[c] [which deal with accurate information about pregnancy prevention, sexually transmitted diseases, what to do with an unwanted baby, and the age-appropriateness of materials used for grades earlier than 7], we come to 12[d]:
[d] If a school district elects to offer comprehensive sexual health education pursuant to subdivision [a], whether taught by school district personnel or outside consultants, the school district shall comply with the following:
[1] Instruction and materials may not teach or promote religious doctrine.
[2] Instruction and materials may not reflect or promote bias against any person on the basis of any category protected by Section 220.
Note the 'if' and 'elects' again.
[Also note the prohibition of religionist materials — another reason the anti-gay forces don't want you to read this chapter.] "
jeff wrote on Oct 8, 2008 2:41 PM:
" Section 220 cited above reads:
220. No person shall be subjected to discrimination on the basis of disability, gender, nationality, race or ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, or any other characteristic that is contained in the definition of hate crimes set forth in Section 422.55 of the Penal Code in any program or activity conducted by an educational institution that receives, or benefits from, state financial assistance or enrolls pupils who receive state student financial aid. "
jeff wrote on Oct 8, 2008 2:42 PM:
" In other words, you can't promote bias against anyone in public schools — including, but not limited to, gay people... and religious people.
The radical religionists really hate the fact that we're legally protected from hatred here in California, just like they are.
They also hate the fact that California prohibits forced religious instruction on public school students — while claiming that California is forcing pro-gay 'instruction' on those same students, which it doesn't.
Also of interest is §221 [same link as the last one above], which destroys the oft-repeated lie that religious institutions will be forced to teach that “gay is OK”:
221. This article shall not apply to an educational institution that is controlled by a religious organization if the application would not be consistent with the religious tenets of that organization. "
Deb wrote on Oct 8, 2008 3:21 PM:
" I know this is in the opinion area of the newspaper, but this certainly looks like an ad from protectmarriage.com . "
Melissa wrote on Oct 8, 2008 3:59 PM:
" This is just outrageous. Children are not taught about marriage in kindergarten. What will happen to same sex couples who are married now? I will tell you, thier marriages will be dissolved with out thier consent. Is Prop 8 and attack on gays and lesbians? YES. People want to change the constitution to read what they agree with nevermind the fact that they are not the only ones who live in this state. Prop 8 supports segragation and discrimination. There is no other way of looking at that. When you try to amend a constitution to eliminate one group of peoples rights that is what it is, discrimination. The supporters of Prop 8 want society to be what they believe in, they forget that this is a free country and we all have the right to persue our happiness. But our happiness makes them uncomfortable so they want to change the constitutional rights of gay and lesbians. It is legal now is any of these things in this article happening now? No. Stop the discrimination, do not let scare tactics fool you, we just want equality under our current constitution. There is nothing wrong with that
NO ON 8! "
Alihandero wrote on Oct 8, 2008 5:14 PM:
" Vote for Prop. 8 friends. Keep marriage between a man and a woman.
Wait, didn't we already do that with California Proposition 22 (2000) eight years ago?
Even change-agent Senator OBAMA and his VP pick are against homosexual marriage.
Let's choose to keep something sacred for ourselves, our children, and our free society. "
Former Resident wrote on Oct 8, 2008 5:28 PM:
" It sounds like the Yes proponents are becoming a little bit panicky and are really try to scare voters into seeing this ridiculous arguement going all wrong for them. I bet they're looking at polls that I'm seeing lately that show them losing by a surprising margin. At this point they should probably just get ready to admit a final defeat once and for all and focus on the real problems of our country such as the economy, the middle class disappearing, the rise of violent crime, etc. that will definitely affect their lives more directly than 2 consenting adults legalizing their love & commitment to each other. Those are the real issues that we are facing, not civil unions of same sex individuals. I can hardly wait for this nightmare to be finally over. "
gees wrote on Oct 8, 2008 5:38 PM:
" Here we go again....DING....Round 2 "
Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 8, 2008 5:41 PM:
" Defeat discrimination and inequality aimed at fellow citizens. Vote NO on Prop. 8! "
equality wrote on Oct 8, 2008 6:45 PM:
" I wouldn't mind if my child was taught about same sex marriages, I will teach him myself. He will see it himself. Homosexuality is not just going to magically go away. I don't think there is anything wrong with it and I believe that if two people love each other, no matter what sex they are, they should be able to show that love with marraige if they so choose. Welcome to the year 2008, and get over it already. The sooner we accept people for who they are, NO MATTER WHAT, the sooner we can all be happy.
VOTE NO ON PROP 8 "
WitchOne wrote on Oct 8, 2008 9:09 PM:
" Whatever happend to tolerance? Hitler hated jews, gays, blacks and anyone else that didn't fit his idea of the perfect person. Although I am not gay, I don't understand why so many are so against gay marriage. I don't understane what you feel you are protecting? A gay couple being married does not make my marriage any less or any more of a commitment to my husband. I've taught my children to be tolerant of others. They didn't choose their eye color, skin color or heigth. They have to live with what they are and I want them to be proud of themselves no matter what. Do gays choose to be gay? I don't think so. Why would anyone choose to be hated and treated like a second-class citizen? Let gays have their marriage. They already are living as married couples and raising children. Let them have the same legal rights as all other Americans. "
Alihandero wrote on Oct 9, 2008 2:52 AM:
" Let's see:
"[2] All factual information presented shall be medically accurate and objective."
How would a trained educator answer their student's questions to comply with the letter of the educational directive above?
- "So homosexuals cannot procreate? Mr./Ms. Teacher, please explain WHY?"
- "How do homosexuals express physical ‘love' for each other then, Mr./Ms. Teacher? I mean, what can they possibly do if they are the same sex?"
- "Mr./Ms. Teacher, what sex is considered normal and what is abnormal . . . or can we do whatever we want to in California if is an expression of our love and is one of our civil rights?"
- "Mr. Teacher, who decided in the state of CA. that two men or two women can now get married?"
- "Why doesn't the rest of America and the whole world let gay people get married?"
- "Since homosexuals can't get pregnant and don't need to practice abstinence, it's ok for me to do this same-sex stuff, right?"
No religion, no other bias here folks; just answer the questions factually.
Then let the kids and their parents work it all out.
Outstanding! "
Sam wrote on Oct 9, 2008 12:13 PM:
" I'm confused...I thought "The Constitution" was written for the United States. California State Laws or any other 'specific' state should NOT be rewriting "The Constitution" to justify individual liberties, based on religious beliefs.
Can't we all just get along? "
Melissa wrote on Oct 9, 2008 2:09 PM:
" Alihandero here are the answers to your questions
So homosexuals cannot procreate? Mr./Ms. Teacher, please explain WHY?"
They can pro create with the aid of the science community and do all the time and have beautiful healthy productive families
- "How do homosexuals express physical ‘love' for each other then, Mr./Ms. Teacher? I mean, what can they possibly do if they are the same sex?"
In case you did not take sex ed they teach many ways to show your affection without intercourse so they you do not have unplanned pregnancy. There is more to physical expression than just male and female intercourse.
- "
Melissa wrote on Oct 9, 2008 2:16 PM:
" "Mr./Ms. Teacher, what sex is considered normal and what is abnormal . . . or can we do whatever we want to in California if is an expression of our love and is one of our civil rights?"
- "Mr. Teacher, who decided in the state of CA. that two men or two women can now get married?"
The people of California choose to uphold the constitution and give equal rights to all citizens. It is not ok to discriminate against anyone in this country (they will be taught about other discrimination by the time they reach the grade for sex ed)
- "Why doesn't the rest of America and the whole world let gay people get married?"
(Before i answer this do you see anything wrong with the phrase "let gay people"? like America or the world is in control of our lives.)
There are groups of people in this country thru out history that have had to fight to have the same rights and the homosexuals are having to fight that fight now. "
Melissa wrote on Oct 9, 2008 2:37 PM:
" - "Since homosexuals can't get pregnant and don't need to practice abstinence, it's ok for me to do this same-sex stuff, right?"
Homosexuality is not a choice. It is not an alternative to male and female intercourse. Abstinence is always best until you are old enough for the emotional responsiblity of a sexual relationship.
"Mr./Ms. Teacher, what sex is considered normal and what is abnormal . . . or can we do whatever we want to in California if is an expression of our love and is one of our civil rights?"
In the USA you have the freedom to persue your happiness. There is nothing normal about a sexual relationship with anyone. A sexual relationship is a special bond between the two people and what goes on between them is what is normal to them
Those were not to hard Alihandero, and the answers in no way promoted Homosexuality, only the facts. I do not believe it would be wrong to teach our children to not discriminate against other human beings. But I do not think any sexuality should be taught to young to children heterosexual or homosexual. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 9, 2008 4:03 PM:
" To Alihandro in Melissa's response to you I see room for major mistakes. Fresno School District is dealing with an issue that was a direct reflection of someone trying to teach the students words not acceptable in their school. Instead a teacher taught them the words as written in a document provided as a teacher's aid. Miscommunication isn't it wonderful. When you turn over subjects to teachers that they are not trained in conveying to their students this is what you are gonna get. Now all students in that class know the unacceptable words by heart, the teacher accomplished their teaching but teaching them exactly what, what words to say if you want to be sent home? Words that many family members have agreed never would have been spoken in their own homes. Is that really education? How would you feel if it were your child that was exposed to those words?
We are not a perfect society by any means and parents expect teachers to do too much of the child rearing as it is. Don't set another confusing sex education lesson on their backs because four Justices changed it up. "
Melissa wrote on Oct 9, 2008 7:38 PM:
" Watchdog Fred I guess its been awhile since you have been in sex ed but that is the language in which they taught us in JUNIOR HIGH. Really there is nothing any worse in my language than Alihandero. If you are referring to the word Homosexual then i think you do not realize that children know about that long before sex ed. Get over it. Did you know that parents have to give signed written persmission to take sex ed? That paper outlines what is being taught and the entire curiculum. I did not ask the questions Alihandero did, I just answered them for him. Do not make this into something it is not, This propostion is about taking away the rights of other citizens, stop spilling untruths the school curriculum will not change it has not yet and it is legal now. That is just a last ditch scare tactic. Lets get real people stick to facts, do your research. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 9, 2008 9:57 PM:
" To Melissa,
In a perfect world your answers might be correct, but we don't live in a perfect world, not every lesbian mother or gay father is going to explain each of those answers as you did. So are there going to be a lot of confused children running around confusing other children probably and most likely. Not many of them get the whole hetero thing right as it is, so yes it will provide more confusion. I think it is tuff enough to rear children when all things are perfect not to mention confusion and desention among children themselves, as we know there will be. Some of the most hurtful things are said by children we have grown up with and many have a long lasting effect on us all. So why hand them a biased subject to deal with and force feed all this love and peace. They tried that in the 60's and it didn't work, won't work, we still went to war. I think anytime we add to the confusion of a childs life we are not demonstrating parenting. But rather forcing our own opinions on them. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 9, 2008 10:03 PM:
" To Melissa,
As for the educational aspect, teachers are charged with giving students the tools to obtain information. They are not and should not be charged with supplying every piece of information our children may need in their lifetimes. I think sex education belongs at an age when students are prepared to deal with it, not in the 2nd and 3rd grade as part of their lesson plan. Indoctrinating children into the different sexes and how they cohabitate, is something I would have expected to see in a German Classroom during WWII. Oh that's right Hitler only thought there should have been one race and that all others should be abolished, much like the gays think marriage should turn out in the end. Just for same sex partners to glorify in and take the heterosexuals completely out of the mix. You say it isn't but clearly until you can put a hetero and a gay relationship on the same scale and balance it in your favor you will not be satisfied. As I've stated previously if we don't protect the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, what else goes? "
Melissa wrote on Oct 10, 2008 3:29 AM:
" To Watchdog Fred
I too believe sex ed should not be taught until an older age. That is the way it is. Children are not taught sex ed in 2nd or 3rd grade, they are taught in junior high. I was taught in 8th grade. I had to have my parents permission. Children can be cruel you are right they use cruel language including Homosexual slurs. Children are already cruel when it comes to this issue why do you think it would be any worse if we are allowed to marry? There are many children now in schools of same sex families and they are happy well adjusted and are taught about tolerance and understanding. When I was a child my mom told me that there will always be bullys to ignore them and turn the other cheek. Bullys are and always will be around, same sex marriage will not change that. Our children are not confused. They are taught that there are many forms of love. They are educated just has children from a heterosexual home are. We can answer our childrens questions the same as heterosexual parents can. No confusion there. "
Melissa wrote on Oct 10, 2008 3:33 AM:
" To Watchdog Fred
I do have a burning question for you. Where did you get the idea we are trying to push the heterosexuals out? I would not wish that right being taken away from any of my heterosexual family and friends. It is a right homosexuals believe all people should have. It is not anyones right in this free country to tell anyone else how to live. As for what else goes, I do not see how that applies. I am afraid I do not see what else you think can derive from us being able to get married except our right to be equal. The issue at hand is same sex marriage is it not? Wether or not we deserve the same civil rights you have? What do you mean by "what else goes"? "
cynic wrote on Oct 10, 2008 11:29 AM:
" Melissa said "They can pro create with the aid of the science community "
Sorry, Melissa - even with the help of the "science community" it still takes someone of the opposite sex to procreate. I don't think the "science community" has been able to produce artificial sperm or eggs just yet. Just not gonna happen unless someone in the "community" gets PERSONALLY involved if ya know what I mean. "
Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 10, 2008 11:38 AM:
" Some good news today...
The Connecticut Supreme Court ruled today that same-sex couples have the right to marry. Another step on the road towards equality.
This is important, because it proves that the CA Supreme Court decision was correct. Precedence is being established and one way or another movements such as the one supporting Prop. 8 will ultimately fail.
Vote NO on Prop. 8! "
Melissa wrote on Oct 10, 2008 6:18 PM:
" To cynic..
People of both sexes donate to banks all the time for the further advancement of science. I do not believe my answer said anything about artificial eggs or sperm. IVF is available to all people. Do you think heterosexual women who need the help of IVF have to get personally involved with the science community? You do not have to get personally involved with anyone there are special banks for that. Yes same sex male partners need a surogate, again services are made available for that as well. There are women willing to surogate for loving same sex couples who want to have a family. So as you can see there is no need for "PERSONAL" involvment you know what i mean. As you can see we do procreate, we spend time money and effort into having our families. No unplanned pregnancies, no "accidents" just planned children we will love and cherish. Not to mention something I did not mention in my answer, adoption. Same sex families have been adopting the children of heterosexual couples who have abandoned, neglected and abused the children they procreated. Guess there is more than one way to start a family huh "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 10, 2008 6:59 PM:
" To Melissa you've always been a favorite orator of mine. I can tell you what effect it will have, just like many others you will need to hire more gay lesbian/gay men teachers who can understand your way of life so they can explain it to your children in school. Because although the present teachers have the 3 r's down and do a fantastic job of teaching your children you will not be satisfied with their ability to teach sex ed to your children. Personally, I think sex ed should be taught at home by childrens parents not even be in the schools. After all in most instances I've been told it is more of a how to than a no you shouldn't scenario anyway. I still think abstainance at that age is the appropriate sex education. We are so worried that all the correct terms be thrown out there that we don't think about the effect they have on children/young adults who haven't crossed that line yet must think of the sex ed course. You know sometimes education can damage one who is not prepared for the subject matter.. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 10, 2008 7:08 PM:
" To Melissa this has a never ending effect throughout life, then you need gay/lesbian teachers, lawyers, doctors, nurses, physician assistants, cafeteria workers, librarians, student counselors, vice-principals, principals, the list goes on and on where you will want special privilege for your children. What about all these displaced heterosexuals who have done such a fine job for all these years. Don't tell me it won't happen, it's happened because of language differences already. Once you've made your case for changing marriage, there will be no end to your forcing your way of life on all heterosexuals,.Because that is the true reason for your cause. You don't want equality, you want to force dominance and dictate to us how to think, how to love, how to procreate and the only reason you want to keep the men in the click is for the donation of the necessary sperm to provide you with children. Yet you say you don't want to change society. My proof of this is the four justices overturning the vote of 61% of the electorate and the celebration that ocurred when it happened. No effect; bolderdash! "
B. wrote on Oct 11, 2008 8:14 AM:
" To Scott Tucker....Your liberal supreme court was not correct....it was the 61% of the voters who passed Prop 22 who were correct. And you & people like you have to file phony lawsuits to try to get your way.
As for Mass. & CT. what do you expect from Kennedy country. All liberal. "
Melissa wrote on Oct 11, 2008 12:41 PM:
" To Watchdog Fred
Thank you for the compliment as you too post many blogs that I find intriguing. I truly respect your thoughts on sex education in the schools. I think that only parents know thier children well enough to know when they are mature enough for that sort of information. It is true that it is more of "how to" and "not to" though they do not actually teach the act itself. They taught us about our bodies and how to protect them. I agree totally that abstinance should be taught at those ages, you can not be emotionally ready for the responsiblity of any sexual relationship. Maturity is a big factor in those relationships. I think children should be encourage to just be children for as long as they can, you can not get those years back. Unfortunatley sex ed is part of the curriculum in jr. high so I believe correct terms and how things are said is very important. At that age children are just begining to find out who they are and should not be encourage one way or the other. "
Melissa wrote on Oct 11, 2008 1:15 PM:
" To Watchdog Fred
I knew I was gay at the young age of 12, which is when these classes are usually taught. Showing any preference one way or the other can be damaging to a child just learning about thier sexuality. Teachers do have a big job in our society today and I do believe they do a wonderful job. We do not have to hire more gay and lesbian teachers as there are many already in that field. All teachers should be knowledgeable on the different families in todays society, it will better help them in thier daily task of understanding each student. There are many different families today not just nuclear families and same sex families. Our children are taught to be proud of who they are and where the come from same as heterosexual families teach thier children. That is taught at home, not in school.
There are already gays and lesbians in all those postions in which you named. We are a big part of todays society. We do not want to dictate to anyone how to live, love or procreate. Is that not what you are trying to do? "
Melissa wrote on Oct 11, 2008 1:18 PM:
" To Watchdog Fred
Is it not you telling us we are wrong for loving who we love? Is it not you telling us we can not procreate in your way so we should not be allowed to marry? I think you have that a little turned around. We want equality, you want domination. We want to be a part of, you want to keep your way of life as the only way of life. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 11, 2008 2:16 PM:
" Melissa,
The part the confuses me is you yourself have done this, you point out all the flaws in heterosexual marriage and put Christians down for their belief that marriage should be between a man and a woman. But you so desperately want to be like us, well you can be like us and still not call it marriage. I don't understand the facination on your part to be married like a man and a woman when you seem to have so little regard for the union and the people in it. I am not trying to keep you from having anything, you tell me this is about rights, but we offer all the rights including the tax laws to you and it still isn't enough. So is it about rights or is it about jealousy of an institution that for years gays and lesbians couldn't think of participating in? You have the same ceremonies, you wear the same clothing as men do, but you seem to have such disdain for them. You single out such a hard working person as Alejandro who takes pride in his position of father to his children. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 11, 2008 2:25 PM:
" Melissa,
You single out Alejandro, you say; "Alihandro is the worse word in the language". Come on, let's be realistic here, Alejandro represents what you can't stand. He is the father you probably never had, he is the stand up guy who is there not only for his wife but for his children too. He sees himself as an example for his children to guide them into adulthood and hopefully be a productive part of society. There is nothing wrong with Alejandro not wanting to become extinct and that is all he has voiced. Yet you attack him, degrade him and indicate your somehow a better parent. Why because you are a liberal lesbian woman, I hardly think that qualifies you to be a better wife than any other on this planet. In all adolescent psychology writings male role models, father figures are listed as important elements of a little boys life, yet you wish to change it. You somehow think your spouse is an adequate role model for your child. Who is it that is trying to change what Melissa? I think the changer is in your mirror. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 11, 2008 2:32 PM:
" Melissa,
You say you don't want to force change, but in reality you are doing exactly that; by eliminating the male role model from your childrens lives. Have you ever heard the term "Daddy's Little Girl". Every father is proud as punch to have a healthy son or daughter and most take their responsibility to that child seriously. There are a few who don't but I would imagine there are some in gay relationships who also are lacking in that department. You are a population of choice in the first place so if child rearing doesn't enter into it then it doesn't enter into it. You can't pick up a wand and make it happen anymore than a heterosexual person can. So who suffers in that scenario, the child that is who. You write your legal forum for parenting based on your own experiences not those of the gay community. Take a census and see where more children reside with gays or straight people and you will see what I mean. The broad brush with which you paint is not appropriate for all gay/lesbian relationships, they don't all include children. "
mom4mine wrote on Oct 11, 2008 3:37 PM:
" I really do not want to go at it over the politics of all this...I think blogs are great as we can share our thoughts and beliefs etc....but when it becomes target practice I think grown men and women turn to children and do the pointing game my kids used to play...you know...a problem comes up and the kids start blaming eachother for it...Christians have their beliefs...that gay people are wrong and will ruin our moral fiber...somehow attack our homes and children,,and on it goes...they bridge it with the fact that being homosexual "used" to be a mental illness...all the time homosexuals have worked in and around people for decades "
mom4mine wrote on Oct 11, 2008 3:51 PM:
" cont...your favorite teacher..your coach...they could have been your aunt...and wow as we learn as people come out of the closet more and more Hollywood stars..or maybe your mom or dad led a secret life that may or may have not ended the marriage...and if it did that is one more way of saying homosexuality corrupts our marriage's...but it was that the gay or lesbian who married to "live like they are supposed to" that ruined the marriage...soooo..here we are and people who are no longer labled mental cases but still sinful and a poisin in the viens of America!!!... "
mom4mine wrote on Oct 11, 2008 4:25 PM:
" ...people throw out things like they cant pro create..well I have read about many many people who use a sperm bank and that is okay so why is it wrong for homosexuals???...which leads to (they will teach their childre to be gay)...well I assure you my parents are far from being homosexual..I lived that life for a while but have been celebate for many years...my kids??..one is a lesbian...did I teach her???she got the same talk the other got...and please the schools and health department do not teach our children to wait.(for straight or homosexual)..not if they come home from school with pockets of condoms and other methods for birth control.sex before marriage is a sin as well do you guys jump on that one too??....and as my daughter said that was no where close to the younger grades....I am sorry if I am jumping here..I have a lot to share after listening to my daughter read the blog every day and I have brain damage...so I jump when I have things to say that really need to be in order to make more sense of it all.. but oh well..I guess my point is this... "
cynic wrote on Oct 11, 2008 4:39 PM:
" Sorry Melissa - however scientific or donated they may be - those eggs and that sperm came from the opposite sex - until cloning is perfected in humans, you still need the other team. "
mom4mine wrote on Oct 11, 2008 4:42 PM:
" we all have civil rights....if you are against this because of your church beliefs your are out of order....there is a separation between church and state...if you think they have some type of powers to ruin our country...please...when I lived with the woman I was with...all five of our kids went to school...we as a couple sang in the K-1st classes...we did other things for their school...they were all in Karate....we had two vacations a year camping on spring vacation and every other year on Christmas vacation we went to visit Mickey Mouse and friends...the kids loved it down there for Christmas....they had wonderful birthday parties....Showbiz Pizza,McDonalds...Rollerskating Parties...they had lot's of friends we had friends homosexual and straight...our families....they had hard times as well...I wont sit here and act like it was all peaches and creme....there are bad families gay or straight period....I feel if it is a church thing...sin is sin...there is no reason to act like one sin is worse...the thing about some sin it's not out in the lights....everyone of you whoever you are have glaring sins that only you and God know about... "
mom4mine wrote on Oct 11, 2008 4:47 PM:
" we all have civil rights....if you are against this because of your church beliefs your are out of order....there is a separation between church and state...if you think they have some type of powers to ruin our country...please...when I lived with the woman I was with...all five of our kids went to school...we as a couple sang in the K-1st classes...we did other things for their school...they were all in Karate....we had two vacations a year camping on spring vacation and every other year on Christmas vacation we went to visit Mickey Mouse and friends...the kids loved it down there for Christmas....they had wonderful birthday parties....Showbiz Pizza,McDonalds...Rollerskating Parties...they had lot's of friends we had friends homosexual and straight...our families....they had hard times as well...I wont sit here and act like it was all peaches and creme..there are bad families gay or straight period..I feel if it is a church thing...sin is sin...there is no reason to act like one sin is worse...the thing about some sin it's not out in the lights....everyone of you whoever you are have glaring sins that only you and God know about..judge not least ye be judged..the biggest point is..your salvation is between you and.God "
mom4mine wrote on Oct 11, 2008 5:07 PM:
" I am really typing a large blog and I am not sure how it is working as some times it clears some it does not...so please if these go through them I will know the politically correct way to blog here..I am trying here..the majority of people always try and mold the rest..the rights have been there but people still try to repress others..race,liberals,..even the people who are voting yes are put down by the ones who say no to prop8...those who will vote yes for the most part have has their head in the sand on what homosexuality for so long they are finding it hard to get the sand out of their ears to hear their side.it just seems like somebody always has to be picked out so they can make their big statements and push some group down...did you all wear white robes and hoods in years past??.it's always someone...at any rate...will my sin in dark that nobody see's make me a worse person in the eye's of God than the so called "sin" in the light of homosexuals??and remembers the things you gripe about them you really do not know either...you have no studies.or facts "
mom4mine wrote on Oct 11, 2008 5:29 PM:
" I believe I have made my point...being a mom of 3 and grandma to 5 I do have to say in closing..those 8 lives I love...my youngest is a wonderful woman..I am proud of her..my son is a awesome man...takes care of his family as does my son in law....they are both married...wonderful with the grandkids...work hard...and then my other daughter....her and her partner are great with the kids..work hard..they took me in as I have been diagnosed terminal....my daughter does what she needs and her partner does the same....do I agree????..I agree my children have made their choices...and as born in America that gives them rights...my children in straight marriges have caused me some worry that rivals their older sister but sexuality is never an issue..why???..it is NONE of my business...I wish them all happiness..I pray they continue to grow and change as staying the same causes things to rot and die..as I said a persons salvation is between them and God...not people who spend their time spitting hate about people who are different..we should be different but we do not or should not go about changing others lives...I vote No my child deserves the same rights "
Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 11, 2008 6:14 PM:
" Dearest B.,
My "liberal" Supreme Court? The Supreme Court of California doesn't belong to me. It belongs to all of us, as we all vote to retain appointed judges during general elections. So, if you are unhappy with the Supreme Court's decisions, you only have yourself to blame for either voting for the current judges, or for not rallying enough support to prevent them from being retained. Maybe next time, you will choose more wisely whenever a judge is appointed by the governor.
As far as lawsuits are concerned, I personally have never filed one. But, by the tone of your comment, it is apparent that you don't like people such as Oliver Brown, a black man, who filed a "phony" lawsuit so that his children could attend school as equal citizens of this country. And you must despise people like Mildred and Richard Loving, a black woman and a white man, who filed another "phony" lawsuit so that they could get married, even though racist bigots did not want them to.
No, it is not the people like me that you dislike. It's the idea of equality, liberty, and justice for all that you abhor. "
Dandre wrote on Oct 12, 2008 10:57 AM:
" Marriage in CA has been available to gays for a while now and I have not heard one thing that has been affected by it to justify taking the right away again.
Other than the perverse rantings of the 'closet' conservatives that took the opportunity to express their attraction to everything from their pets to their toasters, most people couldn't tell the difference.
And those of you who think you can be coersed into the 'gay', YOU probably are....no wonder you guys can't seem to get the marriage 'thing' right.
PROTECT MARRIAGE - make 'adultery' a CAPITAL CRIME and make DIVORCE (the enemy of marriage) ILLEGAL! "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 12, 2008 12:52 PM:
" Hey Alejandro do you think Scott Tucker is registered to vote in Mass. and Connecticut too?
Wouldn't surprise me, he has all the answers to the World's Problems, he just can't get them out of the jumble puzzle.
B - I couldn't have said it any better myself. The teacher forgets that the majority of his paycheck comes from the straight population. Another case of the dogmatic mad dog biting the hand that feeds it.
lawdog - yes you are right many of us made a mistake in the last election of Kings Co. Sheriff, bet this history doesn't repeat itself.
Melissa - I guess I should apologize upon the behalf of the straight population that you feel so infringed upon and mistreated because we won't burn all our bibles and repent at your feet. But the Bible states "you shouldn't worship false idols". "You shouldn't covet another man's wife" is mentioned there also, I believe. But happy hunting and good luck on changing the world, In my education it was Dick and Jane not Dick and Dick or Jane and Jane. Perhaps progress isn't always a progression? "
moved away wrote on Oct 12, 2008 2:02 PM:
" I might no longer live in CA, but if I did, I would vote YES on this proposition.
I have a question....if we are going to pass a law giving the right to same sex marriages, thereby disrepecting the hetero marriages, then why even have marriage at all? If the gay and lesbians are allowed by the state to register as life partners, then why is marriage such a big deal? Let them live together as registered partners.
I think I am just too old to understand all this "alternative lifestyle" tripe. That which was good enough for my grandparents is certainly good enough for me. I am in no way homophobic, but I am so bloody sick of having gay and lesbian lifestyles blaring at me from every possible source. .
Guess I have stirred the pot enuff here, and have gotten that out of my system, I will watching for the results of this propostion on election day, Those who respect marriage, rely on the Bible for their day to day living, those people will vote a resounding YES. Those who vote NO, will have to answer for that one day. "
Inside the Fire wrote on Oct 12, 2008 10:30 PM:
" Dear Melissa, please do not cry discrimination. No one is discriminating against you. For thousands of years marriage has been between a man and a women. You do not have to sit in the back of the bus, or drink out a separate water fountian. That is discrimination. Preventing you from getting married to someone of the say sex is not. It is a right you have never had nor or you entitled to.
Also supporters of Prop 8 are not in a panic. A new San Francisco CBS pole has the Prop gaining and show it up 47% to 41%. "
Inside the Fire wrote on Oct 12, 2008 10:34 PM:
" Dear Melissa, please do not cry discrimination. No one is discriminating against you. For thousands of years marriage has been between a man and a women. You do not have to sit in the back of the bus, or drink out a separate water fountian. That is discrimination. Preventing you from getting married to someone of the same sex is not. It is a right you have never had nor are you entitled to.
Also supporters of Prop 8 are not in a panic. A new San Francisco CBS pole has the Prop gaining and show it up 47% to 41%. "
Mrs.D wrote on Oct 12, 2008 11:08 PM:
" If you really want to protect marriage, make it law that no married heterosexual couple cannot have their problems fixed by going on the Jerry Springer Show. That ought to toughen things! "
NoonEight wrote on Oct 13, 2008 9:49 AM:
" I love all this quoting of 61 % and 4 million votes numbers that has been happening since the Supreme Court ruled. Less people forget when Prop 22 was passed, it was June 2000....right after the 2000 presidential primary. As this year showed, voter turnout is extremely low after the primary and not a good representation of the will of the people. The poll numbers already show that the majority of Californians do not support Prop 8. When this loses, what will Prop 8 supporters have to say then? With all the bigger issues at stake facing our country, this proposition is just a waste of time. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 13, 2008 12:31 PM:
" Melissa,
There is a significant difference between wanting to be part of something and dictating a re-write of the entire subject matter. Furthermore, as you readily point out there are gays/lesbisans in all professions but not siginificant numbers to make you happy. That is where the lost jobs will come from, you will want your way of life talked about from the standpoint of a gay/lesbian the only one according to you who will sufficiently explain the new way of life. I've stated before a man Alehandro questions your way of life and immediately his name beomes the worst word in the English Language. Now how biased is a statement like that one, because he prefers to maintain his position as his childrens father and thinks a positive straight image is the correct one for his children you take offense to it. What, he doesn't have the same right as you to determine his way is the correct way for his own family? He doesn't cowtow to your way of life so he must be evil somehow? I think it is you, who has the scenario backwards, upside down and doesn't understand it. "
lvilla wrote on Oct 13, 2008 2:46 PM:
" Then I guess the only people that should be allowed to vote on this are legally married couples...not "in a relationship" or "common law", but married in the state of California. Ridiculous..I am in an interracial marriage and realize that there is no difference; people who want Prop 8 to pass, are the same people that would like to see couples "marry in their own race." It's all prejudice...no matter how you slice it. "
ronbeg wrote on Oct 13, 2008 3:16 PM:
" This discussion seems to be about tolerance more than the bill, which is not the reason for this discussion. My point of view is that, in my belief, a man and woman can be married and that is all. This does not refer how I feel about gay or lesbians and shouldn’t be misunderstood by anyone as I am very tolerant. This doesn’t mean I am not tolerant or that I am predacious, it just simply means in my belief in the bible and that only a man and a woman can be married. Our nation has been independent and our constitution has been formed on values along with religion and The Pledge of Allegiance state one nation, under god. With that said, we are a nation built on religion and we should respect others differences, however, that doesn’t not mean we needed to change the laws for same sex marriages. "
Alihandero wrote on Oct 13, 2008 5:02 PM:
" Hey Watchdog,
I don't know for sure, but I wonder if there is a chapter of ACORN in Switzerland?
Sign up those expatriates dissatisfied with America to vote and all . . . Johnny Depp is still in France so that end is covered . . . "
Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 13, 2008 5:08 PM:
" Fred,
Sorry to disappoint, but I am only registered to vote in Kings County, California. You guys must fantasize about me all day long. I love the nutty stuff you come up with sometimes. It is clearly not based in reality, but I do have to admit that it is at least creative.
Instead of wasting all that creativity to promote inequality and hatred, you should try to be creatively progressive by voting NO on Prop. 8. "
Alihandero wrote on Oct 13, 2008 5:12 PM:
" And may I remind us here that ALL 4 Pres./V.P. candidates are AGAINST homosexual marriage?
The Democrats got this one right.
Wadayouthinkaboutthat? "
Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 13, 2008 5:22 PM:
" Dear ronbeg,
What exactly would you prey on if you did happen to be predacious? Rabbit? Deer? Muskrat? (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)
By the way, don't you know that the original Pledge of Allegiance did not contain the words "under God"? They were added sometime in the 1950s. So much for that flimsy argument. "
Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 13, 2008 5:27 PM:
" Hey Alihandero,
You will let me know if you ever find out, won'tchya? Thanks.
I will even be kind enough to offer you some information in return. I will let you know when my ballot arrives, when I cast my vote, and when I send it off in the mail to be counted in Kings County along with your vote. I am sure that will make your day, since that is all you guys have been thinking about for the past few months.
Those pesky American cititzens living abroad! How we love to hate them. "
Deb wrote on Oct 13, 2008 6:04 PM:
" Alihandro - your veep pick got it right though, this must be left in each state's hands.
Oh and for those who might read and believe - the Pledge of allegiance did not have "under God" in it until 1954
And the country was based mostly of freedom of religion. It was also believed at that time by the forefathers that people could "not be religious" and still have value. "
NoonEight wrote on Oct 13, 2008 6:04 PM:
" They may be against gay marriage but they are also against Prop 8...Mr Obama stated that as soon as Prop 8 was put on the ballot. "
Melissa wrote on Oct 13, 2008 6:45 PM:
" Watchdog Fred
Let me clarify something before you run away with it to paint a picture of me that is untrue.
"Now all students in that class know the unacceptable words by heart, "-Watchdog Fred
"Words that many family members have agreed never would have been spoken in their own homes. Is that really education? How would you feel if it were your child that was exposed to those words?" -Watchdog Fred
My response to you I said and I quote
" Watchdog Fred I guess its been awhile since you have been in sex ed but that is the language in which they taught us in JUNIOR HIGH. Really there is nothing any worse in my language than Alihandero."
So let me clarify for you, that means my response to Alihandero's questions included language no worse the that of the language Alihandero used. "
Melissa wrote on Oct 13, 2008 7:06 PM:
" Watchdog Fred
Now I have never put down a Christian, my entire family is of that faith and they love me for me. Not all Christians use thier faith to judge others. Many Christians know that is not thier place. There are radicals in religion. The ones who are preaching false and misleading messages to the public are the ones I speak out against. They know they are misrepresenting the facts yet the will do anything to have thier way pushed on all citzens regardless of freedom of religion.
Obviously I do respect the union of marriage, that is why I do not want to be told I am not good enough for it because I love another woman. There is no reason why we should not be able to call it the same thing as you do, you are no better than I. It is not about jealousy, it is about rights, the fact that you have the right to marry who you love and I do not. That is what this is all about. No our rights are not enough, they will not be enough until we are no longer put in a seperate catagory. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 13, 2008 7:30 PM:
" To Scott Tucker,
Scott I have a very pretty wife if I want to fantasize, she will win out over you anytime!
You seem so involved in hometown politics, but no longer reside in hometown. I was allowed to vote overseas. But it was because I wore the uniform of the country. You are so anti-american yet your vote still counts, what a great country we live in. Yes when you are anti-presidential decisions during a time of war you are considered anti-american, in fact some people have been hanged, it is called treason. During WWII many of the comments you make could be considered of a treasonous nature, while in a foregin country.
One citizen of the country was questioned at length last week because she told a volunteer caller on the phone she would not on any terms vote for Obama. Shortly afterwards two agents from the Secret Service showed up on her doorstep and questioned her about supposed threats she had made. All lies made up by an Obama volunteer, do you think the supporter had the power to call out the SS, No but Obama does. "
Melissa wrote on Oct 13, 2008 7:43 PM:
" Watchdog Fred
I do not dress like a man, I am very feminine. My partner wears what makes her comfortable, Jeans and a teeshirl are not just for men last I checked. This again is where the uneducation comes in. Women who want to be men are transgendered. Lesbians are women who are attracted to women. They do not want to be anything other than a woman. We are happy with the gender we were born, we are just attracted to the same. Both transgenders and gays and lesbians deserve the same rights as anyone else. None of us are any less human than any of you.
You say I singled out Alihandero. He is the one that put a long list of questions out and I answered them. That was all I did, all those other things you are trying to imply are just speculation on your part because you seem to have a problem stereotyping those who do not believe the same as you. I do not tell anyone how they should live thier life, that is there life, they are responsible for themselves. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 13, 2008 7:46 PM:
" To Alihandro,
I get confused with your change in moniker sometimes. But no I don't believe they have a chapter of ACORN in Switzerland. The reason I believe they don't is nothing is being interrupted in Switzerland. No one is being threatened with a march on their personal residence to scare their family members, to sway votes. The intimidation level doesn't meet the criteria of a Chicago or a Boston where they are heavily entrenched.
ACORN is an interesting read for anyone willing to google it, the Obama ACORN not the glossy version in wekipedia's encyclopedia. Intimidation as a political movement should never be allowed in this country. It states in the article that this agency grew from the "1960's Welfare Reform" intimidators who brought us our current problems in our cities and counties. Through sit-ins protesting equality of Welfare. Did you ever realize there was such a program launched against our government no wonder it's in
shambles.
Obama is listed as one of the teachers of the correct manner in which to conduct ACORN business. The largest and most effective chapter exists in Chicago, Illinois. "
Melissa wrote on Oct 13, 2008 8:04 PM:
" Watchdog Fred
Alihandero's postion as husband and father is not in any kind of danger. My marriage is not going to have any effect on his life period. This is again another misleading statement made by those supporters of Prop 8 who want to scare the undecided. Right now there are alot of gay couples who got married this summer and nothing has changed. Except that right now we have the same rights as you.
You are right Alihandero and yourself and others like you do represent something I can not stand, you represent the close minded. The one thing I can not stand is someone who thinks they are better than others for one reason or another. That is the only thing he or you have that I can not stand. I have never suggested that I am a better parent than anyone, only that I teach my children about tolerance, and understanding take that as you will.
We are not a community of choice, we are born this way, and that is a fact. Your beliefs will not change science my friend. "
Melissa wrote on Oct 13, 2008 8:27 PM:
" Watchdog Fred
Correct me if I am wrong, but not all heterosexual couples can or want to have children either so what was your point in this statement:
The broad brush with which you paint is not appropriate for all gay/lesbian relationships, they don't all include children. "-Watchdog Fred
As long as children have parents who love them they will turn out fine. Heterosexual marriages are hardly an example of the perfect family as the 50% divorce rate shows. There are good and bad relationships in both communities. But to say that we will destroy marriage is just ridiculous. We did not contribute to that statistic. "
Deb wrote on Oct 14, 2008 12:12 AM:
" Watchdog - while I realize your comments were directed to Alihandro, I thought I'd share this link with you and demostrate that even your favorite candidate, McCain has enjoyed ACORN
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/10/a_lifetime_ago_sen_john.php
I'd suggest that the right-wing efforts to demonize ACORN is pure political desperation. "
B. wrote on Oct 14, 2008 12:52 AM:
" I heard some interesting news this evening on KMJ580 Inga Barks show...it seems a 1st grade teacher in SF took her class on a field trip. And where do you think she took them.....to her lesbian wedding to watch her be married to another lesbian. All done without parents approval. The parents didn`t find out until the kids got home. The parents are furious over this. I sincerely hope this so called teacher is fired and never allowed to teach again. Goes to prove how dirty & scandelous gays & lesbians are. With all the support against homosexual marriage it looks real good Prop 8 is going to pass.......Get out & vote on this people.....YES ON 8. "
Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 14, 2008 4:57 AM:
" Fred,
I have no doubt that your wife will win out over me anytime when it comes to looks, but when it comes to voting rights and who is entitled to them, it is rather clear that I am and have been for some time now the object of your skewed fantasies.
Fred, when I voice my opinions, even critical ones, regarding the President of the United States, be it overseas or on US soil, it is not called treason, it is called a right. You see, we have this document in the United States called the Constitution. You should try reading it sometime.
"in fact some people have been hanged"
Do you feel that I should be hanged because of my critical opinions? Is this what you are saying here? That is pretty strong stuff, Fred. You always harp about putting country first, Americans first. You might try showing your fellow Americans a little respect by not calling for their hanging if you want us to start believing you. Again, I ask, who here is the true practitioner of anti-americanism? "
NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 14, 2008 11:33 AM:
" To Ivilla, I too am in an interracial marrige, first because nobody is the the exact same race as me, good old Heinz 57, and my wife is a different race, makes my kids at least Heinz58, and I am positively 100% for Prop 8. I am sort of like Archie Bunker, I do not discriminate, as I hate all people. Not a true statement, but I share my emotions to all, regardless of reace, creed, gender, etc. We who are for Prop 8 are not discriminating against anyone, everyone has the right to marriage as presently defined. Now others are trying to cry discremanation while changing the definition? Who exactly is discremanating? And I am sure that your "interracial" marriage is between a man and a woman. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 14, 2008 12:16 PM:
" Melissa,
I found evidence of what you said would never happen it appeared in WorldNetDaily. Posted on October 11, 2008, not only were children from a Public School bused to a same sex marriage of their teacher but missed the opportunity to learn something in school that would have been part of the normal curriculum in the process.
Instead six year olds were used to support the No on 8 campaign including buttons pinned to their shirts saying so. Instead of participating in vital lessons at school they were on the streets of San Francisco distributing rose pedals on the steps for their teachers same sex marriage. I wonder do you think a heterosexual couple could take their class to their wedding with the blessings of the parents and the school? This happened with students from Creative Arts Charter School and is well publicized with but who else officiating but Mayor Gavin Newsom.
"As WND reported, supporters of California's Proposition 8 have claimed that combining legalized same-sex marriage with the state's mandate that schools "teach respect for marriage and committed relationships" would result in kindergartener's being taught the virtues of homosexual marriage. Continued "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 14, 2008 12:28 PM:
" Melissa,
Continued from above blog - "Opponents have called such arguments fabrications and scare tactics."
"Yesterday's field trip wasn't quite kindergartner's, but it was close".
So much for your comments about this being everyone's imagination and sex-education not being taught to first or second graders. That is all this is, an exercise in sex education, isn't it?
Public School, Public Funds, San Francisco liberals, yep it all makes sense to me. Who will be the next teacher to provide a day goofing off from school to attend a same sex marriage? I wonder how many heterosexual marriages will be considered "educational field trips". After all shouldn't heterosexuals get equal time. Pretty soon that's all schools will be teaching "field trip weddings" and we'll wonder why students can't add or spell, can't find jobs, oh I guess they could all become "same sex wedding planners".
So much for 1st and 2nd graders not being pulled into the same sex marriage thing. Not only pulled in but adorned in buttons supporting the No vote on Prop 8. Those parents, teachers and Mayor of SF should be ashamed. Using children! "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 14, 2008 12:39 PM:
" To Scott Tucker you give yourself way too much credit and accountability. If you think all I do is sit and think about you and your ability to vote. In fact I can't wait to meet you in 2009 so we can sit down and look each other in the eye and have an intelligent conversation, without all the banter and sword clanging. Consider it on!
You don't think that treason can take place in today's society Scott, then you are far more naive than I ever thought you were. The constant anti-american tone is coming from you and the other liberals here, not from me. I believe in this country and I support our CIC in fighting terrorism, wherever we find it. Be that Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or wherever it raises it's ugly head. You see unlike you and I terrorist aren't focused with their attacks, they kill women and children because they consider them legitimate targets in their war. We don't do that, when we do that it is a mistake, a misplaced bomb and we apologize for it. But we should never apologize for is being right. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 14, 2008 12:49 PM:
" To Scott Tucker we choose to disagree upon the war and many political issues. I do not have a dislike for you personally, like a child I may not approve of your behavior but I don't dislike you. I just think you sometimes forget to turn the brain on and just spew venom from a liberal point of view. I think you don't stop to think of what people who don't know you love america; truly feel about america. Your Swiss friends for example, do they understand that when you put down Bush and all other resemblances of Repbulicans that you don't also put down america itself? When an American is abroad and speaks poorly of his country in a forum then many take that as a disapproval of the entire country. We were cautioned on this in the military, what you say, what you do, what you represent; also does represent your country. These aren't just words they are truths that should be taken to heart. After awhile and with long disertations about the evil americans, "foreigners" tend to believe you are a radcial discident, open to God knows what. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 14, 2008 1:06 PM:
" To B;, I also heard of this report but the parents were made aware of it, they sent notes home for the parents to sign and return. All but two of the notes were signed and returned those two students remained at the school and attended another 1st grade class for the day.
What child wants to be the one who doesn't attend their teachers wedding. Like our parents many of us seek favor of the teacher when in school. This is undue pressure placed on a 1st grader to be dealing with, Melissa herself said "a child should remain a child as long as they can" without having to deal with adult decisions.
In the town of liberal San Francisco, I am surprised two parents stood by their morals and demonstrated character by choosing curriculum over "field trip" in the best interest of their children. Isn't that what education is truly suppose to be about, teaching the three r's and one of those r's is not reality, at that age. When our children don't show up for school we get a call from the attendance office. The state excepts this as education? "
Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 14, 2008 2:08 PM:
" "I believe in this country and I support our CIC in fighting terrorism, wherever we find it. Be that Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or wherever it raises it's ugly head."
Fred, I agree wholeheartedly with your comment above. Terrorism must not be tolerated, ever!However, we should not compromise our principles and integrity in the process and our government should not expect us to do the same. That is where you and I differ on the subject. "
Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 14, 2008 2:24 PM:
" Fred, Have you ever stopped to consider my position? I mean really consider it? I am an American citizen living abroad. Unlike you during your days of international travel, I don't have the luxury of being surrounded by fellow citizens and I don't have the added comfort of knowing that should something go awry, I can rely on my brothers-in-arms and their guns to protect me (and please don't misinterperet this as some jab at the military).
Of course I am conscious of how people may perceive me, my words, and my actions. I choose my words very carefully when discussing the United States with non-US citizens, because at the end of the day, I represent the United States. As an American, I have to defend the actions of my country, no matter how ill-conceived and stupid they may be. I have to convince people that, while our governement is illegally invading another country, we really aren't bad guys. So please, until you have really lived in my shoes, please stop your "you're-a-traitor-to-the-country" spiel. Your words insult my intellegence, as well as the intellegence of my Swiss friends, who you assume can't tell the difference between constructive criticism and treason. "
Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 14, 2008 3:54 PM:
" And I insult my own "intellegence" by incorrectly spelling the word intelligence! Twice! :-) "
NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 14, 2008 3:55 PM:
" To Scott Tucker, how exactly is the war in Iraq illegal? If it were, then why isn't the United Nations calling us out on it? We had UN resolutions, that even Switzerland probably voted for, that gave permission based upon Saddam's failure to comply. I do think that Bush used the wrong reason for going in, that is the WMD questions, whereas he should have simply stated Saddam's failure to comply with the resolutions and his past actions were cause for his removal. I believe the war is just, and I also knew it was going to be another Grenada and only last a week. I too have been overseas, both as military (Vietnam Conflict), and as a civilian. I have had to face more rebellion than you have to fear in Switzerland. I was in Iran during Carter's failed deplomacy, and have looked down the business end of a loaded rifle. Some my students unfortunately most likely fared worse than I. I was not a school teacher like you, but rather worked within the confines of the military. "
Angie wrote on Oct 14, 2008 4:37 PM:
" BIG THUMBS UP for all the people who stood with signs stating YES ON 8 on Lacey Blvd. on Sunday! Way to Go!
Marraige should not be compromised! "
chuck21 wrote on Oct 14, 2008 6:11 PM:
" So if Prop 8. does not pass, can I go marry my dog? Would I be partner A and she be Parter B? Frankly I don't think schools should be teaching anything other than reading, writting, and arithmetic. Maybe if more parents actually taught their kids anything and pay more attention to what schools are doing they would not have to worry about anything. As the religious aspect goes, christians or any other faith should be able to operate the same and deny employment of gays in various non-profit faith based organizations, and deny gays from being able to take head roles in churches. In various non-profit faith based organizations. I know how this works, when this proposition gets shot down gays will be able to marry, whatever, but it won't stop their. They will eventually want more like being able to become ministers of churches regardless of the churches beliefs. Anti-Gays and Pro-Gays will keep trying to cram their beliefs down each others throats as with anything else. This is just how it starts. "
FarAway wrote on Oct 14, 2008 9:48 PM:
" VOTE YES ON PROP 8!!! Homosexuality is WRONG people! Read your Bibles! Everyone keeps asking "Why is the world just getting worse and worse?" Well, here is your answer, we keep wanting to seperate our lives from God. "Your belief in God should be left behind closed doors, it has no place in our everyday lives", right? Well, this crappy world we are living in, is exactly what happens when we shut God out! The end is extremely near everyone, time to wake up and smell the coffee! Who do you live for God or yourself? Choose wisely! "
Melissa wrote on Oct 14, 2008 11:15 PM:
" Watchdog Fred, you respond to me with an issue like children being taken to thier teachers wedding, and how that is using children and a wedding being sex ed? Weddings are about love. The sexual relationship is private. Then you turn around and respond to another Prop 8 supporter and say that these childrens parents gave them all permission? You and B. are perfect examples of twisting things to make a point. You tried to shut down my response by saying something I said would not happen happened. B. put that teacher down and acted like what she did was unthinkable. All she did was invite her class to her wedding with parents permission. Tell me something if the teacher had been straight and invited her class to her wedding would you have a problem with that? Would you be so upset about them missing school then? No. Lets be real here, I do think children should be children for as long as they can but there is nothing wrong with teaching your children about love in all forms.
B. There are as many straight people who are scandalous and dirty, I have met many. Your prejudice shows. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 15, 2008 12:12 AM:
" MELISSA, Please forgive me if I don't bow down and kiss your feet, o.k. First off what are the chances in San Francisco of all places that a heterosexual would be allowed to dirupt their class for a day to attend their wedding. (While we are on the subject I usually don't correct spelling but thier is spelt their.)
Further, this is an example of 1st grade students being removed and taken away from their assigned curriculum to attend a same sex marriage to learn what exactly? How people of all sexes can love each other, then are we going to take a day for hetero's and a day for mixed marriages a day for the guy who wants to marry his chicken. Do you begin to get my point, or am I going too fast for ya? Lessons you speak of belong in the home and taught there on weekends not interrupting valuable school time to mislead students, what do you want to go to school or go on a field trip? Any Kindergartener could get that one right? Come on it's a misuse of funds, time and people, admit it. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 15, 2008 12:22 AM:
" MELISSA, If I wanted to take your child out of school and take them in the 1st grade to a firing range at a military base and show them how to fire a .45 caliber pistol on a firing range would that upset you? I mean after all he or she will have to learn how to fire a weapon if they go in the military. But then how many students actually go in the military out of school?
Guess we should indoctrinate all of them just in case they are wanting to try a career in the armed forces. Are we introducing same sex marriage just in case our kids want to be married to a same sex partner? Does that somehow make the same sex marriage more glorified and sanctified in your eyes. Perhaps we should teach homosexuality 101 in the 3rd grade, what do you think? That is what I meant before about where does it all end?Do we have classes on interracial marriage, heterosexual marriage, or do we just jump to showing them how to load the bottle to stop where they want it to? "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 15, 2008 12:29 AM:
" To Scott Tucker, I am sorry you've never shared the fullfillment of sleeping with 60 or 80 other guys in the same barracks. Never having a privqte moment for a private thought because of all the jibber jabber that takes place. Trying to write a letter home, handwash your uniforms, brush your teeth, take a shower while be interrupted by other guys passing gas in your face as they walk by and all the other lovely buddy things you do in the military. But with all that considered you are right about one thing, they always had your back and you always had theirs. They may hate your guts on liberty but they had your back in harms way. Because that is what the military does.
I'm sorry you don't feel that association but I would imagine a smart fella like you could get a job at a military base somewhere in the region and be close to your family. Dependants need to be taught all over the world. Some might even consider that a way of giving back to the one's who put their tails in harms way for us. Thoughtful! "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 15, 2008 12:37 AM:
" To Scott Tucker, no many of the comments you have made are derogatory to the point of disgracing the leadership of this nation. That to me is treason, Patton use to say; "Think it but don't say it till your back on American Soil". Even though he had ill thoughts of the President, he didn't let anyone in Europe know it, many didn't know there was a problem until he came home. Truman's problem was with Patton and Bradley cause he felt they wanted to be President when he completely overlooked Dwight David Eisenhauer, who became President.
He also couldn't see the forest for the trees. Many great military minds thought Truman dropped the bomb on Hiroshima to prevent Brandley from becoming a larger hero than he was.
It's not always what you say that makes an important statement but what you don't say. You seldom brag on America in a blog, you seldom give credit where credit is due. I'll give you an example, when McCain stopped his campaign to return to Washington did you say anything respectful in that regard. I believe the popular comment by most liberals "avoid the debate". "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 15, 2008 12:42 AM:
" Melissa and anyone else concerned please go to the following: http://tinyurl.com/4199ec to read the entire article on the 1st grade class.
I still say a heterosexual marriage would not have been authorized to do this and I challenge anyone to show me one that had taken all but two students out of a class day to attend a heterosexual marriage. I;ve certainly never heard of it happening. "
Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 15, 2008 4:01 AM:
" Dear NotHomeGrown,
Thanks for your reply. I made no reference to the war in Iraq, but to answer your question, we attacked a country that was not a direct threat to our security and had nothing to do with the attacks which transpired on 9/11.
If you will remember, Switzerland only became a member of the United Nations in September of 2002, so any UN resolutions involving Iraq before this date could not have been voted on by the Swiss. Nor has Switzerland ever been a member of the United Nations Security Council. Therefore, they could not have voted on UN resolutions regarding the war in Iraq. So much for your argument. "
Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 15, 2008 4:38 AM:
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