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Opposing sides spar over Proposition 8

By Shannon Milliken
smilliken@HanfordSentinel.com

Hanford drivers filled the air with the sound of honking horns, cheers and even shouts of profanity from their rolled-down windows, as they drove through the intersection of 11th Avenue and Grangeville Boulevard on Thursday afternoon.

The drivers were responding to a "No On Prop 8" demonstration that quickly became a two-sided event. About 30 people gathered on the northwest corner of the intersection Thursday -- holding signs and ready to speak out about their "no" stance on this election's most controversial proposition. Across 11th Avenue, one Proposition 8 supporter held up a sign. But by an hour later, that one supporter was joined by about 40 more.

As soon as the "No On Prop 8" group noticed they had company from the other side, they began to cross streets and spread to all four corners of the intersection. Proposition 8, if passed, would prohibit homosexual couples from marrying in California.

April Silva, a Hanford teacher who was among the "No On Prop 8" group, said she was inspired to stand up for her view on the proposition because she was tired of seeing the "Yes on Prop 8" people everywhere.

"We need to be the change we want to see in the world," Silva said. "That is what they teach us at my church."



Silva attends Fresno's Wesley United Methodist Church, which is open and affirming to homosexual attendees.

Myndi Hardgrave, a teacher at Hanford West High School, was also among the "No On Prop 8" group on Thursday. Hardgrave, who is homosexual and the advisor of Hanford West's Gay Straight Alliance, said she is tired of "being treated like a second class citizen."

"I deserve the same rights as every human being in this country," Hardgrave said. "The 'Yes On Prop 8' campaign is spreading lies."

Hardgrave explained that -- unlike what some Proposition 8 supporters have said -- that schools would not have to teach about gay marriage if the proposition is not passed. The California Teachers Association has united to say "No On Prop 8."

"This is a humans rights issue," Hardgrave said. "This isn't a religious issue.

"It's about time I stand up for my own rights because nobody else is. I have a normal life. I am not a freak. I am not some person who does weird things. I'm tired of being treated differently."

Jessica Edmonds, the first to arrive from the "Yes On Prop 8" group that gathered, said she was on her way to her parents' house when she saw the "No On Prop 8" group.

"I ran home and grabbed my sign from my lawn and came out here," Edmonds said.

"Marriage is a sacred thing. In a time when everything is getting eroded, we need to protect marriage."

Melissa Denton, founder of Hanford's Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender organization, said the "No On Prop 8" supporters are planning another gathering for Saturday, at the intersection of 12th Avenue and Lacey Boulevard.

"We just want people to look beyond their personal beliefs," Denton said. "It's about equality. We're all Americans. We all deserve to be treated equal."

The reporter can be reached at 583-2424.

(Oct. 24, 2008)

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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 24, 2008 12:37 PM:

" Crystal, way to go, after being pointed out that people shouldn't be using children to promote either side of Prop 8, there you in all of your glory with your 3 year old nephew. Guess he will be voting no on Prop 8. I drove by the event yesterday, before the Yes people showed up, and I could tell from the straw poll, that the vast majority of people passing through the intersection did not support you. Some of you should have been arrested on the spot for impeding traffic by stepping in front of vehicles with you signs. You have the right to demonstrate, but you don't have the right to impeded traffic.
Hanford Police Department, did these people have a permit to demonstrate? If not why weren't they removed from the corner?
I know that us Kings County residents are a bunch of bumpkins according to you, but if you don't like growing up in "Mulberry", then why don't you leave for San Francisco where you will find more respect? "

Deb wrote on Oct 24, 2008 12:46 PM:

" Way to golocal supporters of equality for all. It's much nicer to read things like this vs supportmarriage.com blackmailing corporate sponsors to send money to supportmarriage.com so they won't be "outted" for their support of equality.

supportmarriage.com seems to think it's a shame to support equality?

This of course is the organization spewing misinformation around. They should have their non profit status immediately removed.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/ n/a/2008/10/23/state/n145556D05.DTL&hw= protectmarriage+com&sn=001&sc=1000

Remember to vote, people. "

equality wrote on Oct 24, 2008 1:08 PM:

" Good for them! I was so excited to see them out there last night voicing their opinions, and their rights. I gave my honk for the NO side.


NO ON PROP 8!!!!!! "

rory1 wrote on Oct 24, 2008 1:23 PM:

" VOTE YES ON PROP 8!!!! Marriage is between a man and a woman. That's how it was intended that's how it needs to stay! I would never be rude or talk badly about a gay/lesbian person-I have many friends that are...but I do not agree with the lifestyle they have chosen-and they know that! I will take a stand and say that they have no right to be married!!! "

scouch wrote on Oct 24, 2008 1:39 PM:

" As a California teacher, I was disgusted to learn that the CTA (California Teacher's Association) had donated money to the "No on 8" campaign. Personal beliefs aside, proposition 8 (as the "no on 8" supporters have said repeatedly) has little or nothing to do with education. The CTA has gone out of their way to assure Californians that Prop 8 is not related to education in any way, nor will it change what is taught in the classroom. So why did they feel the need to donate $1 million to defeat this proposition, especially when every penny is so desperately needed to fight for issues that DO impact our schools?

I urge everyone to remember that the majority of California's teachers support prop. 8, and the CTA was not speaking for teachers when it decided to endorse the "No on 8" campaign. There was a personal agenda being followed with that move, and it was a bad decision. "

henrytabatha wrote on Oct 24, 2008 2:07 PM:

" Johny's homework: Jim has 2 apples, HIS HUSBAND eats one. How many are left? That's the day I take my kids out of school....

all FOUR Pres/VP candidates agree on this issue.... Shouldn't we?

Tolerance = love... not acceptance.

YES on 8!
whatisprop8.com "

O. G. wrote on Oct 24, 2008 3:12 PM:

" Expect to loose your parental rights if prop 8 fails. Don't listen to the lies spun by the homosexual political activists. This is not fear mongering, this is reality. A father goes to jail to protect his son


Please watch this very short video to see what every parent can expect to be taught in the public schools of California if Prop 8 fails. Is this what you want for the children of California? If not, vote for Prop 8 and encourage all your friends and family to vote for Prop 8.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1815825713
VOTE YES ON EIGHT
[X] Yes on 8 "

matt wrote on Oct 24, 2008 3:37 PM:

" henrytabatha, While I am sure that your children will get a much better education from homeschooling than they would at their public schools (note the sarcasm) I suggest you check your endorsements. Both Senator Obama and Senator Biden have endorsed a NO vote on Prop 8 because it would write unfair discrimination into the state constitution. "

matt wrote on Oct 24, 2008 3:49 PM:

" OG, You're example takes place in Massachusetts where education laws are significantly different than they are here in California. Our state does provide that all education about these issues must be age appropriate and does allow parents to pull their children out of these lessons if they are concerned.

Further, the California curriculum contains absolutely no discussion of marriage, whether straight or gay. "

matt wrote on Oct 24, 2008 3:57 PM:

" rory1,

What a good friend you must be to say that your friends have "chosen" a "lifestyle" and deserve to be treated as second class citizens because you don't agree with it.

I no more chose my sexual orientation than you did. By the luck of the draw, God made me as a gay man. If I want to protect my relationship with the legal protections of marriage, why shouldn't I? Just because YOU don't agree with it? "

michelle wrote on Oct 24, 2008 4:10 PM:

" NotHomeGrown, I don't know if you had your bigot shades on and couldn't see clearly but NO ONE stepped in front of any vehicles with their signs UNLESS they were crossing the street IN A CROSSWALK. Last time I checked thats what crosswalks were for, crossing the street! And just an FYI for you the people who were on the other side of the street with their VOTE YES signs also had MANY children actually children that were very young! I guess we'll be seeing the babies who can barely hold their heads up voting yes on 8 too huh! You also might wanna read up on some laws about demonstrations, you DONT need a permit! On a happier note I think the rally had a great turnout, great job to everyone there! Can't wait to do it again!!! "

ProudTeach wrote on Oct 24, 2008 5:00 PM:

" scouch, speak for yourself. Get your facts straight. The CTA elected body, over 700 members, elected by their peers in the teaching profession, voted unanimously to take a STRONG stand AGAINST PROP 8. Also, in case you haven't read the CTA mission statement lately, it clearly states that we will seek to creat a more JUST AND EQUITABLE SOCIETY for our ALL. There are clearly teachers in the valley who support Prop 8 but how dare you speak for the CLEAR MAJORITY of us.

What people still do not seem to understand is that absolutely no one is asking anyone to abandon their beliefs. California law does not allow for us to teach about marriage, gay or straight, churches still have the right to refuse not to marry someone, for any number of reasons. The last time I checked, they can refuse to marry someone simply for not being a member of their congregation. Allowing Gay Marriage does not suddenly change those rights the churches already have. "

ProudTeach wrote on Oct 24, 2008 5:11 PM:

" It was not that long ago that interracial marriage was illegal. If Prop 8 was attempting to take away the right to marry outside of your ethnicity we would stand up, as a united California, in opposition but because this Proposition deals with a marginalized group of people in our society we feel free to openly express our discrimination and hatred toward them. How can you see this as anything other then an attack on people's personal liberties. Our pledge of allegiance says "liberty and justice for ALL" not all straight people. The gay and lesbian members of our society deserve to be treated like everyone else.
The beauty of being an American is that you have the amazing right to not approve of someone for their religion, race, culture, and yes, even for their sexual orientation, but you don't have the right to treat those people differently under the law. We have a MORAL obligation to make sure we create laws that provide that EQUAL protection. "

pickle wrote on Oct 24, 2008 5:27 PM:

" Its suppose to be a FREE country please vote NO on 8 and just let people live their life. God will not hate you for voting NO on 8. God might not like same sex couples but he is compassionate and he MADE them this way. Imagine if you were made gay. Have compasion and just let people live their lifes. Your kids learn more from TV about gay lifestyle then they ever will in school. "

Melissa wrote on Oct 24, 2008 5:53 PM:

" First of all I am sooo proud that is my family and one of my best friends. NotHomeGrown Crystak has never addressed any of the topics you say she has. Crystall is new to blogging and has only blogged on one story. There is a difference between using children for political gain(the Yes on 8 commercials) and our families coming out to support our rights. BOTH our nephews and THIER parents were there! No William will not be voting but he knows he loves Crystal and I. You should h ave stuck around all the Yes on Prop 8 brought thier kids down there too, watch throwing stones my friend cause your side had just as many kids out there as well. There is no need for a permit to demonstrate either, do your homework, we all did. The police were there keeping the peace. There was no one running into the street with signs, however, there was a supporter of Yes on 8 pushing a gay man into the street and THAT my friend was caught on tape. Who I ask you should have been arrested on the spot? "

Melissa wrote on Oct 24, 2008 5:55 PM:

" NotHomeGrown cont...As for our response we had a overwhelming response in our favor, all night long! It was soooo encouraging. Crystal has also never called anyone here a "bumpkin" she was born and raised here and has as much right to live here as anyone else


NO ON PROP 8 "

Alihandero wrote on Oct 24, 2008 6:00 PM:

" Well, "Matt,"

Both Senators Obama and Biden do not support or condone homosexual marriage, and neither does Senator McCain nor Gov. Palin.

So, following their bipartisan lead, we all should - once again - not endorse homosexual marriage, and continue to define marriage as being between one man and one woman, just like 61% of CA. voters thought they were doing in 2000 with the overwhelming passage of Prop. 22.

Restore the democratic voice of the people, friends.

Vote YES on Prop. 8! "

redo'riley wrote on Oct 24, 2008 7:44 PM:

" While I think the whole Prop 8 argument about teaching “the gay lifestyle” in public schools is scurrilous, I think it’s interesting to note that everyone I know in Hanford who supports Prop 8 either send their kids to private schools or home school them. I guess they feel the need to protect the rest of us dullards from ourselves. How noble of them. "

Hmm... wrote on Oct 24, 2008 7:47 PM:

" Why is it that people are so quick to judge? It's understanding that some do not agree with the gay/lesbian lifestyle. However, the person who disagrees does not have to marry someone of the same sex. That is YOUR choice. Why not allow others to choose who they marry? Why not just tolerate others and allow them to make their own decisions? Did anyone choose your husband/wife for you? All this world needs is a little tolerance. "

char wrote on Oct 24, 2008 11:26 PM:

" I don't normally talk politics I try to avoid the subject I have my opinion like everyone else but I choose to keep it to myself unless asked normally, HOWEVER I have to say that if you do choose to stand on a corner and announce your opinion to all around you please please please think before you speak. I am happily married and have 6 kids and have every intention of voting no on 8 but was horrified to be stopped on that intersection and hear a "no on 8" supporter announce over a megaphone "If it's ok for Catholic Priests to abuse little boys then why can't gay people be married?" I con not see how comments like this could possibly help the situation. She is herself comparing homosexuality to the molestation of a child. Is that really the message we want to send? so please if you are at the next gathering and you really want to help the no on 8 movement please don't allow that girl to speak or at least take away her megaphone "

michael wrote on Oct 25, 2008 12:05 AM:

" Proud Teach
Thank you so much for setting the record straight (no pun intended). The California Teachers' Association is a democratic organization. You are correct that the representative body overwhelmingly voted to support the No on 8 side of the proposition. You were also 100% right about CTA's mission statement for a "just and equitable" society for all. My, my, it seems like people are trying to force their particular religious beliefs on everyone else. I thought that we had religious freedom in this country? I thought we had separation of church and state? I'm proud of YOU Proud Teach. By the way, I was at the rally, and I was SHOCKED at the support the No on 8 side received. Change is coming.... If it doesn't happen this time, it will soon. Oh, and I was so proud of Diane Sayer's editorial in the Sentinel too! Thanks Diane for standing up for all taxpaying citizens that deserve equal treatment under the law. Again, FREEDOM AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!! "

RobertD wrote on Oct 25, 2008 6:48 AM:

" To: ProudTeach,

Yes, the CTA Elected Body was selected by a majority, BUT it was not elected to funnel member dues to causes that have NOTHING to do with education, like the No on Prop 8 campaign. Many teachers like myself are sick and tired of this practice. By the way, national statistics show that about 1/3 of all teachers are conservative, 1/3 liberal, and 1/3 independent or libertarian.

And CTA should not be allowed to hide behind some blanket statement to "creat a more JUST AND EQUITABLE SOCIETY for ALL." This could be interpreted in so many ways that its useless as a guiding principle, unless you are an adherent to social activism. CTA/NEA should stick to education! "

evil spotter wrote on Oct 25, 2008 7:21 AM:

" Matt, the education laws in Massachusetts are NOT significantly different then those in California. And what has happened in Massachusetts is EXACTLY what will happen here. Under current CA education codes (51932b) "Where issues of sexual orientation or gender identity are raised in school programs... parents are NOT entitled to have notice of or the opportunity to opt their children out of such programs." "

Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 25, 2008 8:25 AM:

" I send my respect and admiration to all who were willing to take a stand against inequality and ignorance and participated in the demonstration in opposition to Prop. 8. This issue is about equality under the law, about fairness, and about civil and human rights. Religion has absolutely no place in this debate. Please continue to fight the efforts of those who want to restrict the rights of our fellow citizens. I have already voted No on Prop. 8. I hope those of you who support equality will also vote NO. "

kitty on the keyboard wrote on Oct 25, 2008 10:03 AM:

" BOTH Obama and Biden OPPOSE prop 8 because it is devisive and discriminatory.

http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1051404.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/10/20/entertainment/e174934D50.DTL&type=politics "

scouch wrote on Oct 25, 2008 1:39 PM:

" To proudteach: "700 members of the elected body voted unanimously to support no on 8"? Are you sure you have your facts straight. First of all, the vote was not unanimous. Second, 700 people do not constitue a "majority of teachers" being in favor of this proposition. California has THOUSANDS of teachers, who were not given the opportunity to vote weather or not they wanted to support either side of this issue. The decision was made WITHOUT taking their opinion, and DOES NOT represent the views of California's teachers! I'm actually a little concerned about any student being taught by someone who thinks that 700 out of over 300,000 teachers represents "the clear majority". "

pnotes wrote on Oct 25, 2008 2:17 PM:

" Matt,
I read your sarcasm on homeschooling. Thank heavens we have the choice to school our children the way we want. We can raise our children without the government (public) schools minimizing our parental authority. Public schools indoctrinate our children with many negative social values. Negative peer pressure, homosexual agendas, sex education, liberal curriculum all go against what many parents want their children to learn.

WAKE UP PARENTS! Vote yes of Prop 8! If it fails, think about alternative schooling. Form private schools or homeschool. "

proudteach wrote on Oct 25, 2008 3:38 PM:

" To RobertD,
You seem to forget that CTA is a "teachers union" and when it's "members"are being discriminated against then it is the responsibility of the union to take action. CTA does not only exist to advocate for CA students but also for it's members and there are a great deal of it's members who are directly and negatively impacted by Prop8. CTA would be going against it's own stated mission to not attempt to fight a potential law designed, by nature, to discriminate against a group of people. If you and scouch are so bothered by the direction you believe CTA is headed then run for office and make some changes.
Yes, I have my facts straight. CTA did vote unanimously to stand up against 8. There was not a single discenting vote cast. Those 700 elected members were chosen by members from their area to represent their area. So, yes you did vote and if you didn't then the next time there is a ballot at school for you to fill out, don't throw it away. I'm proud of our union for standing up for it's GLBT members. It's about time. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 25, 2008 8:18 PM:

" To: Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 25, 2008 10:25 AM:

You will be pleased to know that my wife and I just voted too, she cancelled your vote and that makes mine count and yours doesn't. So we are already 1 to 0 on the Yes Vote on Proposition 8. Alihandro and all the other gang can vote knowing their vote was not cancelled out from Switzerland. Yes Demoncracy isn't it wonderful.

By the way Scott where were you when the no vote supporters were at 11th and Grangeville?
I was on the opposite corner with my yes on 8 vote sign and heard all the horns honking in favor of Prop 8.

I missed you at the local City Council Candidate debate also, were you there?

I mean after all if you vote for one of them you first have to live in their district and second live at your reported residence otherwise it is an ACORN registered vote and doesn't count.

Every state is going to promote a check through DMV to verify addresses and licenses issued after the election, to certify each states election this year. "

Deb wrote on Oct 25, 2008 11:32 PM:

" Gee watchdog, you belittled me for saying I cancelled your vote via mine in a prior post and now you seem to be stooping to the level you accused me of with such disdain. Whatsup? Stooping down to my level must have been painful.

Isn't it wonderful, absentee voting... Great to hear Scott still votes even if away from the country.

DMV checkpoint? You are out of your ever lovin' mind. What about the poor housebound, or the ones out of the county. AND who the heck is going to pay for it? The government? "

teach67 wrote on Oct 26, 2008 7:34 PM:

" As a long time resident and teacher in the Hanford area, as well as a graduate of Hanford High, I am always appalled by the behavior of some of the members of my community. Prop 8 has to do with equal rights, what happened to the seperation of church and state? Why do those who object to it for religious reasons think they are right...because they do so in the name of religion? Please do not give me studies about the stability of children raised by a man and a woman when more and more are raised by one parent, grandparents, foster care, group homes. Being straight did not and does not guarantee a happy marriage or parenting skills. I am GLAD CTA took a stand, as did APPLE. RobertD and SaraC, YOU WORK IN PUBLIC EDUCATION YOUR PERSONAL OPINION ABOUT GAYS AND LESBIANS IS JUST THAT YOUR PERSONAL OPINION If you work in public schools, you are accepting of ALL, How do you think your gay and lesbian students feel or will feel knowing you think they do not and should not have the same rights asyou! "

teach67 wrote on Oct 26, 2008 7:40 PM:

" Justice and equity for all is just that, for ALL, CTA is for the rights of its students and teachers and yes, there are gay students, parents , staff in your schools. The deserve the same respect and dignity as anyone else. what gives you the right to say who they can marry and who they cannot? Being gay does not mean you are immoral. There are plenty of immoral straight people to go around. IF marriage was so sacred, why are so many straight people divorced!! Please, get your heads out of the sand, you have a right to belive what you want, so do I , you have to right to workship who you want, so do I, you have a right to love who you want, live where you want, marry who you want, so should ALL people, not ALL BUT......I thought we were past this, SUPPORTMARRIAGE FOR ALL, GAY, STRAIGHT, MAN, WOMAN, BLACK, WHITE, ETC!!!!! "

melMAOB wrote on Oct 26, 2008 11:52 PM:

" I thought about involving my son in the protest, he knows what the bill is about because we educate him about the diveristy in families and he accepts it. However, I chose not to because of the cruelity of this world. So she had her nephew, big deal...the yes supporters had toddlers and a mentally handi-cap person out there as if he could vote!!! Good lord some people argue over the silliest things "

RobertD wrote on Oct 27, 2008 8:02 AM:

" To proudteach,

I'm so glad to hear that CTA will be there if I am discriminated against or are having my rights taken away; however I find it hard to believ CTA will be there for me if the government tries to take away, let's say, my 2nd Amendment rights. Yes, the 700 member elected group was voted for by people like me TO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT MY JOB AND EDUCATION and not to spend over 1 million dollars for the No on Prop 8 campaign. I may support Prop 8 but thats not the issue I am mad about. I am mad that a teacher's union, regardless of its mission statement, spends over 1 million dollars on something having nothing to do with education. "

RobertD wrote on Oct 27, 2008 8:08 AM:

" I have posted the question elsewhere and I'll post it again here. Could someone explain to me exactly what RIGHT is being violated by defining marriage as a union between a man and woman? Also, why is the gay and lesbian community so ooposed to the idea of having an equitable civil union situation that would replicate all the benefits of traditional marriage, while reserving the term 'marriage' for a union between a man and woman (as it has been defined for thousands of years)? I would favor such a situation. Couldn't we create a win-win situation? "

BJMallory wrote on Oct 27, 2008 11:28 AM:

" Fred, my husband and I are both voting NO on Prop 8, my four children who are all over 18 will also be voting the same so not only is your vote cancelled out, it's BURIED under six votes for equality under the law. Sorry. LOL "

chuck21 wrote on Oct 27, 2008 12:31 PM:

" Let's just list a couple simple equations.

Male+Male = ?

Female+Female =?

Male+Female = bingo, the ability to sustain life.

I could go deeper in explaining how sex is supposed to work but the Sentinel probably won't post my comment and everyone should know how it works.
By the way when you buy 2 male bolts or 2 female boults they will not work together, it takes a male and a female for the parts to work properly.
So i am sorry if I don't agree with a gay life style, but to me it just does not fit into a workable equation, by the way I am not religious.
So everyone, why is this even an argument? Why do we have to consider gay marriage right and beastieality wrong? By the way, comparing interracial marriage and gay marriage together is like comparing an apple to an orange, it is not the same thing by far. "

Melissa wrote on Oct 27, 2008 2:17 PM:

" Robert D..I believe I have answered this question for you before, but just in case let me explain,. Our RIGHT to equality under the law will be violated if Prop 8 passes. Everyone in this state has the right to equality. As for your question about homosexuals having the same rights but calling it something different...that is not exactly equal it is? .If you are willing to give us the same thing you have then why are you objecting to us calling it the same thing? If it is a legal marriage that is what it should be called regardless of the gender/sex ot the couple. I have the RIGHT to the same dignities, respect, as well as the legal commitment of marriage as you do. We are not second class citizens therefore should not have to settle for anything other than total equality under the law. "

Angie wrote on Oct 27, 2008 3:08 PM:

" I know this comment probably will not get posted but I must say...
MATT- You were not born gay. You were born into sin and you gave into it. We all can deny our flesh, some have it harder than others, but it's possible. So don't blame God or say that God made you this way because He didn't. "

chuck21 wrote on Oct 27, 2008 3:25 PM:

" What if somebody wanted to marry their brother, sister, father, daughter, mother, should they be allowed to do so since california law prohibits blood relatives from marrying, I mean if you allow one group to do it why can't another? If prop 8 fails this is how it will all start, it affects more then people think. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 27, 2008 3:27 PM:

" To: BJMallory wrote on Oct 27, 2008 1:28 PM:


You are not the only one with adult children and friends and family BJ have another ciggie butt and relax.


" Fred, my husband and I are both voting NO on Prop 8, my four children who are all over 18 will also be voting the same so not only is your vote cancelled out, it's BURIED under six votes for equality under the law. Sorry. LOL " "

teach67 wrote on Oct 27, 2008 5:43 PM:

" Angie
You just proved the point, religion is what drives this and religion has no place in this, it is about equal rights for all, you can belive what you want, and so can your church, but I would hope that we we all are standing at our verision of the gates to heaven ( or whatever you call it) that if God will only let straight people becasuse they are straight and not on the life they lived and the way they treated others and not let a gay person in becasue they are gay but otherwise led a moral life and treated others with respect, then you can keep your version,. Keep religion out of it, you would all feel different if the law was reversed WHo are you to say what God did or did not do, are you a descedent of God? PLEASE "

MelMAOB wrote on Oct 27, 2008 6:20 PM:

" mmm, chuck I was waiting for this arguement....

So deny our right to marry because we seek alternatives to getting pregnant. But if you do...

Be darn sure you take away the right to marry for those men and women who are unable to concieve. No other minority in America has allowed inequalities and neither will we. "

proudteach wrote on Oct 27, 2008 7:18 PM:

" So, RobertD, you would be ok if our country renacted the seperate but equal laws we had before the civil rights movement came along and proved that those laws were anything but equal. If you look more closely you will discover that the domestic partnership laws are also far from equal. Even if we could create a law that was in fact equal, we would still be singling out a group of people for different treatment by giving them a different title. If it is the same then it should be called the same. Im not really sure why heterosexuals seem to believe that marriage is so "sacred" when 51% of us will get divorced. Our society treats marriage with complete disregard it is ridiculous, and if marriage is really only about procreation then we need to pass another amendment that makes it illegal for those who cannot have children to marry and we need to take away marriage rights from elderly couples too. Give me a break. Discrimination is discrimination, no matter how you color it. I won't stand quietly by and ignore it. "

chuck21 wrote on Oct 27, 2008 9:25 PM:

" To MelMAOB, I like how people like yourself try to make your arguments legitimate by taking 2 different scenarios and try to make them the same. Now when a man and a women can't conceive there is most likely a physical problem associated. Now gay couples can't conceive through traditional means, basically sex because the same parts don't work plain and simple. Comparing male and females to gays who can't conceive is like trying to compare interracial marriage to gay marriage, it is not the same comparison. Now if prop 8 does not pass, do you think that the state should allow blood relatives to marry or allow folks to marry their animals? It's not any less natural. "

Inside the Fire wrote on Oct 28, 2008 12:16 AM:

" To Teach67: God will not let someone into heaven based on the good works they have done throughout their life. No matter how good we think we are, we are not worthy to enter into heaven. That is why Jesus had to sacrifice himself on the cross. He died so we can have life. In the book of John it states , "16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." It takes a relationship with Jesus to get into heaven. Good works won't cut it. You must repent from your sins and according to the Bible homosexuality is a sin. "

Inside the Fire wrote on Oct 28, 2008 12:31 AM:

" I drove by this domonstration and I heard vote no people yelling, "stop the hate." Well I'm here to tell you this has nothing to do with hate. It has to do with what is right. I find it odd that the no people are the ones filled with hate. I know of several people who have had their yard signs stolen. I had my Vote Yes on 8 bumper sticker taken off my car and torn up and left on the ground. I would never touch another person's car and take off a bumper sticker. The vote no people are the ones who are haters and not tolerant. "

jeff wrote on Oct 28, 2008 8:48 AM:

" You're right Angie, God did not make anybody straight or gay because God does not exist. "

Angie wrote on Oct 28, 2008 9:23 AM:

" Teach67-
I don't go to church. It's just the way I believe. I believe that the Bible is the defininate and final word of God. Maybe you should read it sometime so that you can understand why gay marraige is wrong.
This issue is NOT about equal rights. It's about a group of people who want to force their discusting lifestyle on everyone else and force everyone to live with it all in our faces. Yeah, I said discusting.
I don't hate gay people. I don't approve of them trying to force me to accept the way they live. I have two gay sisters and two gay cousins. I love them but their lifestyle is unnacceptable! "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 28, 2008 10:46 AM:

" To Michelle, when I was stopped at the intersection headed West turning North onto 11th, there was one of the demonstrators that stepped in front of a vehicle that was headed South on 11th, no bias, just facts. I was there before the Yes supporters showed up, and if you could retain the information that I have posted, then yes I disagree with either side using children. Now if the infant or small child was just there with their parent and wasn't holding a sign like in the picture then it is okay, perhaps couldn't find a babysitter. But YES it would have been better to be left to adults only to voice their opinion.
I don't know the city ordances, but yes there are times that you may need permission if you have a gathering of more than x amount of people. If you hinder the flow of traffic then you are in the violation of the law. I did not witness the incident described as a YES supported pushing a gay man. If that happened with no reason, then it might be a criminal offense. continued "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 28, 2008 10:53 AM:

" continued: Does the video show the whole situation and have audible sound? Did the gay man provoke the confrontation? Did he commit a crime that brought on retaliation? I am not for violence, and the YES supporter should not have touched a NO supporter, but again I wasn't there, haven't seen the episode in it's entirety.
to proudteach, what does the divorce rate have to do with anything, it is not illegal. Yet sodomy is, but you are supporting that and other criminal acts via gay marriage. Are you going to tell me that 100% of the gay marriages will never end in divorce? There is already a case where a lesbian couple who concieved via a donor got divorced, the partner keeping the child asked for child support from both the ex-lesbian-partner and the donor. Fell sorry for that guy, gets saddled with child support for something he did not actually create through procreation. So how is that fair play? "

retirednavyvet wrote on Oct 28, 2008 11:05 AM:

" If this is an issue of equality, then the question is why is it? Aren't there some civil union laws which allow for equality as a married couple? And if this is a rights issue, then, again, why is it? Anybody has the right to do as he/she wants as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of someone else. Is this not correct? So, people have the right to marry whom they want, but at the same time, other people have the right not to recognize it as a marriage. If the courts have to be brought into the picture, which they have already, and a resolution is not reached, then the people can go to the legislative process to get one, which is what this is all about. Now, if this is a religious issue, then it would behoove us all to make sure we know what we believe and what God tells us we should do. "

RobertD wrote on Oct 28, 2008 11:16 AM:

" Melissa wrote: "If you are willing to give us the same thing you have then why are you objecting to us calling it the same thing?" If you really desire the same advantages of a marreid man and woman then why are you not willing to give up the title of marriage. I am not arguing that a homosexual couple can not have a loving relationship that is recognized by the state; however, as Chuck21 pointed out there is a biological difference between the two situations and historically marriage is what it has been--a man and woman. It seems to me that this has more to do with destroying an institution that is the foundation for society than really gaining equality. Laws can be passed to ensure equality but using different terminology. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 28, 2008 11:16 AM:

" continued: When did gay sex become legal in the United States? If it is still illegal, then how can you ask for something legitimate out of something illegal? "

Matt wrote on Oct 28, 2008 11:19 AM:

" Evilspotter-

Instead of trying to find the one line that might give your argument any credit, try to read the entire section of the code.

The Education code specifies that a parent/guardian can remove their child from instruction on Sexual Health Education but NOT Health Education. The difference is drawn between courses with describe or show sexual reproductive organs and gender roles and those that don't.

Ask any reputable attorney- Massachusetts law is very different from California not only in the way it is written but in the way it is interpretted. "

kitty on the keyboard wrote on Oct 28, 2008 11:29 AM:

" Angie -
Why did you think that your comment would not be posted? Could it be because it was is nasty and wrong? "

Matt wrote on Oct 28, 2008 11:31 AM:

" ANGIE-

Who are you to say whether or not I was born gay? I doubt that you are much of an expert in the biological devices behind homosexuality. And short of being omnipotent, how could you see what is going on in my soul, mind, and body?

I was born gay just as the majority of the population was born straight. I happen to be a Christian and believe the God made me this way.

I am not saying that you, or anybody else, needs to share my religious beliefs. I am asking that you allow me to live my own life. "

RobertD wrote on Oct 28, 2008 11:33 AM:

" Unfortunately this is one of those issues that is so emotion filled that no one will ever change anyone elses mind. I believe that equality has become so broadly defined that it has become a joke. There is no right to marriage. Marriage is a social construct that is open to the defintion supported by the will (ie. majority) of the people. Defining marriage as being between a man and a woman violates no one's rights. What needs to happen is for a legitimate domestic partnership law to be put in place that would satisfy the gay and lesbian community's needs. "

Matt wrote on Oct 28, 2008 11:47 AM:

" Chuck 21-

Those of us on here urging a NO on PROP 8 aren't demanding that you accept our lives or even understand them. We are just asking you to allow us to live them.

Marriage is a legal institution between consenting adults. It gives a number of legal rights and financial benefits and contains a number of legal and financial liabilities.

California's constitution demands that all people are treated equally under the law. Currently, marriage laws are fair, giving the right to marry to all Californians. We are just asking the state to keep the law the way it is.

Has my right to marry the man I love really caused your life to suffer? "

Tony wrote on Oct 28, 2008 12:58 PM:

" Melissa, remember the voters of this State ALREADY spoke to say that marriage was a man and a woman. Nobody cares what you do in your bedrooms alot of people just don't want our children and childrens children seeing two guys make out in public.
I believe this all started with The Muppetts......pigs kissing frogs....it just ain't right.
I blame Jim Henson. Is his wife still alive? "

Matt wrote on Oct 28, 2008 1:16 PM:

" Alihandero-

Senator Obama wrote a letter to the Alice B. Toklas LGBT Democratic Club of San Francisco which was subsequently published in several places. It is available online at:

http://www.calitics.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=6307

That letter states, "As the Democratic nominee for President, I am proud to join with and support the LGBT community in an effort to set our nation on a course that recognizes LGBT Americans with full equality under the law. That is why I support extending fully equal rights and benefits to same sex couples under both state and federal law. That is why I support repealing the Defense of Marriage Act and the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy, and the passage of laws to protect LGBT Americans from hate crimes and employment discrimination. And that is why I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states."

Sounds pretty clear that Senator Obama is opposed to Prop 8. "

Matt wrote on Oct 28, 2008 2:26 PM:

" To NotHomeGrown-

Antisodomy laws in California were removed before 1970. However, in the few states where they existed (such as Texas) they were struck down by the US Supreme Court in 2003 with the decision in Lawrence v Texas. "

Angie wrote on Oct 28, 2008 2:37 PM:

" Matt- You CAN live your own life. I'm not trying to sound hateful towards you or any gay person out there. I just will not accept marriage in any other form other than a man and woman and I resent the fact that my children have to be exposed to this at school if it becomes a state law! You say it has nothing to do with education but it will infitrate our education system one way or the other. "

jeff wrote on Oct 28, 2008 3:25 PM:

" NHG,

You said “to proudteach, what does the divorce rate have to do with anything, it is not illegal. Yet sodomy is, but you are supporting that and other criminal acts via gay marriage.”

And

“When did gay sex become legal in the United States? If it is still illegal, then how can you ask for something legitimate out of something illegal? "

WOW another example of how you speak before thinking. Laws banning sodomy were ruled unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court in June of 2003. Many states had already repealed their anti-sodomy laws long before this including California.

Unconstitutional, just like illegalizing “Gay Marriage” is unconstitutional. No one is forcing anything on you; you can still believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman. No one is taking your belief away from you therefore no one is taking any rights away from you. No church is going to be forced to perform gay marriages if they don’t want to. Stop creating false arguments just so you can enact laws based on your fairy tale book. "

babylicious wrote on Oct 28, 2008 3:34 PM:

" Homegrown -
Sodomy is NOT illegal. Hasn't been for a while. Welcome to the 21st century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States "

Matt wrote on Oct 28, 2008 4:07 PM:

" Angie-

Gay people have always existed and we will always be around. Chances are that your children will go to school with gay classmates and have gay teachers at some point.

The fact of the matter is, they live in the 21st Century. You can't prevent them from being exposed to gay people.

Gay marriage won't be taught in the classroom. If it is, you will still reserve the right to keep your children out of class on those days without repercussion according to state law.

What is your plan to prevent your kids from being exposed to gay people? "

Alihandero wrote on Oct 28, 2008 4:29 PM:

" So "Matt," are you now asking us to believe that SODOMY is a good thing, a natural thing, a healthful thing?

Let us be absolutely clear: it's a ‘normal' thing for people to do?

And will that be part of a child's education; will it be thrust into their core beliefs because the school, the teacher, and the textbooks explain it as part of the now-legal homosexual marriage in California and two other states?

After all, it's OK because its an expression of ‘love,' right? "

chuck21 wrote on Oct 28, 2008 5:03 PM:

" Hey Matt, my life has not been changed in anyway because of gays being able to "marry," but that still does not fix the fact that you are confused about how sexual reproductive organs really work. If prop 8 fails it does not fix the fact that California is still nuts. I will not feed my children the garbage that same sex relationships and marriage is acceptable because the state seems to think so. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 28, 2008 7:42 PM:

" Have any of you ever heard the term EXODUS, well I just about bet the farm that if Prop 8 doesn't pass with a yes vote. You will see a mass exodus of all Christian students withdrawn from Public Education and enrolled in Christian Schools, throughout the state of California and possibly abroad in service provided schools. Like it or not you are the minority and when the majority checks out and John S. McCain provides the vouchers who will pay for your precious gay sex education in school. You may pool the wool over some Justices faces, but there is always an option to win when you possess the majority of parents/voters and residents in the state.
The minority has pushed the majority around too long in this state. It's time we stood our ground and started pushing back. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 28, 2008 7:44 PM:

" I go with the evidence of the little child holding that sign! There deffinately was child participation in that demonstration and CPS should get involved. "

MelMAOB wrote on Oct 28, 2008 7:48 PM:

" Ali..here is a excert from the ACLU website on the history of Sodomy laws...

Connecticut followed Illinois' lead in 1971 and 19 more states (CT, CO, CA, DE, HI, IN, IO, ME, NE, NJ, NM, ND, OH, OR, SD, VT, WA, WV, WY) repealed their sodomy laws in the 1970s. Most did it as part of a general reform of criminal laws. California, which had a six year fight over repeal of the sodomy law, was an exception. California's repeal finally passed in 1975 after a dramatic tie vote in the state Senate, where majority leader George Moscone kept the vote open and the Senate in session while a private plane could be dispatched to bring back the Lt. Governor. He cast the tie breaking vote. Moscone, later elected mayor of San Francisco, was assasinated in 1978 with Harvey Milk.

Now, Looking in the DSM IV-TR published by the American Psychiatric Assc. Sodomy is no where to be found. There for it is not an illness of any sorts. And dare I venture out to say it is not only gay humans doing such acts? I know many heteros doing it as well. "

bluefish wrote on Oct 28, 2008 10:01 PM:

" Melissa, As a No On Prop 8 Advocate, I'd like to know more about your plans for a demonstration on Saturday. Can you provide details? Time, location, etc. Thank you. "

Melissa wrote on Oct 28, 2008 10:07 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, You know I respect your opinions but now you are making it personal for me. There are no laws against children being a part of demonstrations. MY nephew was holding a sign that said "I love my Aunties" that is all nothing more. Considering the whole side of the street that was voting yes had teenagers out there till 10 o clock at night I do not think you should be throwing any stones, since you yourself said you were out there. My sister and her husband take great care of my nephews, they are loved, fed, have a routine, they have clean clothes, and their own beds. Now I ask you, if it is ok for you to stand on a corner holding a YES on 8 sign with a bunch of teenagers, toddlers and even a baby who could not even hold its head up demonstrating why can we not have our kids out there holding signs saying they love thier aunties and mommies? What I think is sad is people dragging one innocent little boy supporting his family thru the mud when they had children out there doing the same thing. "

Melissa wrote on Oct 28, 2008 10:22 PM:

" Watchdog Fred cont...you and anyone else who stand by the YES on 8 campaign are using young children to lie on statewide television but have the nerve to say anything about William standing by his aunt, holding a sign saying I love my aunties. This was a family event. We were not using it for a campain ad, So before you start pointing fingers remember what went on on your corner and who was standing with you. You would not want to look like a hipocrite.

As for the majority, look at the polls my friend I think you will see a different story. The only one pullling wool over anyones eyes are those of you who lie about what Prop 8 is really about. Prop 8 has nothing to do with schools, nothing to do with churches, it is about our right to marry. The prop reads this "eliminates the right of same-sex couples to marry" Do you see anything in there about schools or churches? No.

Robert D I have answered your question, You can twist it however you want, facts are facts yes on 8 eliminates our right to marry. "

Melissa wrote on Oct 28, 2008 10:31 PM:

" Bluefish this site will have all the information on our rally and others in the state of california,

http://www.cafepress.com/no8

this is also our direct link, on this page it will have the info as well

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=425346795

Hope to see you there!! "

Melissa wrote on Oct 28, 2008 10:34 PM:

" Bluefish, it is also on this sunday coming up, like I said those links will provide you with all the info, Thanks for the support "

LadyBug wrote on Oct 29, 2008 12:05 AM:

" Ok people when was the last time any type of marriage was "taught" in school. I have worked at the elementary and high school levels and not once do I recall a course on "marriage". Also for those of you who are so against Prop 8, shake your family tree and I bet there is a gay uncle, aunt, or other relative in there, wether you try to ignore it or not, they are there......... Wake up people, in this day and age who cares...... if a couple wants to get married lets them be......AREN'T THERE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS WE NEED TO WORRY ABOUT BESIDES THIS...........NO ON PROP 8............. LET PEOPLE BE WHO THEY ARE!!!!!!! "

Melissa wrote on Oct 29, 2008 1:54 AM:

" Tony homosexuals have been around since the begining of time, and please tell me what Kermit and Miss Piggy have to do with two consenting adults having the right to get married? "

Melissa wrote on Oct 29, 2008 2:07 AM:

" NotHomeGrown your objection was to those children wearing No on Prop 8 buttons. My nephew was holding a sign that says I love My Aunties, which he colored with his aunt Crystal. He was very proud of his sign and yes he knew what it said and what it meant. We did not have any of our children holding signs that they did not know what they meant. Now on the other side of the street there were teenagers out till 10 o clock at night holding Yes on 8 signs. Our children were out there showing their love for their families that is all. I know that you know the difference between using children as political gain (Yes on Prop 8 commercials) and children showing support for their OWN family. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 29, 2008 7:58 AM:

" To all vote no on Prop 8. I presume that you also support incestous marriage? After all you all claim this about love, and incest is just another Biblical law. Don't try to say that the offspring will be born with 3 eyes, etc. There are documented cases of unknown incesteous relationships producing normal children. So if sodomy, which is forbidden in the Bible, is now legal, can't it therefore be reasoned that if two siblings really, really love each other they should be able to get married, as again incest is only a "religious" thing.
Somebody also please answer what makes a person an adult? Does the adult fairy fly in on the night before your 21st birthday and wave it's wand that transforms you from chlld to adult? Every law is arbitrary, but that is why we have laws, to eliminate as much chaos as possible. "

jeff wrote on Oct 29, 2008 8:38 AM:

" Hey Fred, if I had any children in the California public school system I would love a mass exodus of Christian fundamentalist children from my child’s school. In fact I would be “Praying” for it. "

Nevada wrote on Oct 29, 2008 10:20 AM:

" Ladybug- so what do you think Home Ec is teaching then when they do their course where they have flour sack babies or the egg babies and are partnered (usually boy-girl) and are suppose to take of it and work together and "pay bills". Isn't that teaching them about marriage and families? "

Matt wrote on Oct 29, 2008 11:15 AM:

" Nevada-

What do egg babies teach the students? It teaches them how to be responsible within a family unit.

NEWSFLASH- Gay families exist! Gay men and women have children (sometimes biologically, sometimes through surrogate parents, and sometimes through adoption).

Our families are just like yours except that there are two moms or two dads. We balance our checkbooks and pay our bills. We raise our children.

That isn't teaching about marriage as much as it is teaching about responsibility. That won't change and doesn't need to. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 29, 2008 11:47 AM:

" Melissa, you are wrong on two counts, first it wasn't a "family" affair. Never heard of having a family get together on the corner of busy intersection and displaying your opinion on a proposition. Second you, and also the Yes side, are wrong for including children. Your nephew may not have been holding any sign whether for or against Prop 8, but was guilty by association that his appearance their gave support to No on Prop 8. I am glad that he loves his "aunties", but where does his "love" equal gay marriage? By the way, since the picture does not show what his sign says, how was I to know what it did say, other then to presume support for voting No on Prop 8. If this truely was a "family" event, then your "family" is afflicted more than the national average by everyone being gay. Protest peacefully, that is your and every American citizens right, but both sides keep the kids out. "

LadyBug wrote on Oct 29, 2008 11:53 AM:

" Nevada: when was the last time that you saw the "flour sack and egg babies" being taught??? and you even said "usually" boy-girl, so not always.....I think that most schools are going to the "live-baby" instead of that anyway and if you take a look at the it is usually one student per baby. So is that teaching them "single parenting". You also said that they are working together to "pay-bills", same gay couples can also work together and pay bills...... "

Nevada wrote on Oct 29, 2008 11:57 AM:

" Matt... I know! The point I was trying to make to Ladybug who claims they don't teach marriage in school is that they do. They may not call it Marriage and Family but within certain courses they are teaching kids about marriage and famiy units. While yes it is about resposiblity it is about responsiblity with another person no matter what kind of family you have. "

Dandre wrote on Oct 29, 2008 12:00 PM:

" NOTHOMEGROWN.....Your assumption leads me to believe you are starting a petition to ‘legalize’ some of YOUR fantasies. Well. here is a list of some of your ‘like minded’ republicans who might ‘vote’ for you…

http://www.armchairsubversive.org/

These guys just couldn’t wait for your petition! Are you setting up in front of Walmart for signatures?
Leave it to you to compare ‘love’ between 2 consenting adults with your personal perversions…and by the way your dragging the Bible through your ‘mud’ is REAL CHRISTIAN….. JESUS CHRIST was the most LIBERAL, SOCIALIST/ COMMUNIST in the history of the world and His lessons in humanity are the core of ‘true’ Christianity! You might want to spend a little more time on YOUR salvation, ‘bigotry’ won’t get it… "

Angie wrote on Oct 29, 2008 12:41 PM:

" Matt- I realize I cannot keep my children from being exposed to gay people. There's a handful of gay people in my family. I just make sure they understand that this is not a lifestyle that is acceptable. I talk to them and I make sure they understand the meaning of marriage and that it is between a man and a woman only. "

chuck21 wrote on Oct 29, 2008 1:53 PM:

" I walked into a store the other day and noticed they had a display of wedding and anniversary merchandise such as picture frames. The merchandise often showed a man and a women in marriage together. I then thought if prop 8 does not pass will we then start to see this type of merchandise with same sex couples on it? To lady bug and nevada, I had to take care of a a doll simulated as a baby in high school with a young lady because we were paired off. We had to share responsibility for that child, obviously we did not go home together in a real life setting, but the young lady was my partner for the project. I do know that many middle schools still use the egg babies. "

Matt wrote on Oct 29, 2008 1:55 PM:

" Angie-

And for your children's sake, I hope that you have a bit of tolerance if one of them comes out to you at some point. You have no control over the sexual orientation of your children. The truth is that your children have no control over their own sexual orientation.

Unlike you, most Californians support a California where all people are treated fairly under the law--including the right to marry the person they love. "

Matt wrote on Oct 29, 2008 2:46 PM:

" Chuck21-

That sort of merchandise with two grooms or two brides has been available for a long time now. There aren't many places in or around Hanford that sell it, but be assured that it can be purchased online or in areas where there is a larger gay community in which to market those things. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 29, 2008 4:30 PM:

" Melissa wrote on Oct 29, 2008 12:07 AM

I didn't see any pictures of teenagers or children printed in the Hanford Sentinel from the Yes on 8 campaign. I would like to inquire who wrote the sign your nephew was holding, was it him or someone say of your age? For your information, I would have said the same thing if the picture were of Aunts who were saying Yes on 8 with their nephew between them. Your picture always seems to make the paper, so I guess that is the price of fame, further demonstrating your nephew had no place being used as an ad campaign for the No on 8 crowd. I can't believe his mom and dad are proud to have his picture plastered all over the news paper for whatever the cause! I like NHG feel children prior to their teen years shouldn't be within five miles of such a demonstration, regardless of side. Keep the kids out of it, if you want to stand on the corner and be a fool have at it, but at least let them attain an age of consent before you include them. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 29, 2008 4:41 PM:

" Melissa wrote on Oct 29, 2008 12:07 AM

(Continued) I suppose next you will tell me that in his class that day they were discussing the Proposition 8 consequences. So you just thought you would further his education, regarding something that doesn't effect him since he is born of heterosexual parents, who evidently don't support your campaign. I don't see either of them present.
All I can warn you is there are many sick minds about, who steal more than campaign signs and exposing your nephew to that possibility. Demonstrates to me a very defficient comprehension on your part, for your nephews safety. If you don't understand that paragraph, it wouldn't surprise me either.
This Proposition has divided many in the community to resort to egging a Pastor's house, then their place of worship and all that violence is from your side of the vote Melissa. What's next burning crosses in their front yards? This entire matter has gotten completely out of hand, when a campaign becomes violent on either side it is time to rethink the issues and what it means to you and to me. (Continued) "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 29, 2008 4:46 PM:

" Melissa wrote on Oct 29, 2008 12:07 AM

(Continued) You see for me the strategist who think they can throw a few eggs don't frighten me into changing my vote. What it does is strengthen my resolve to vote, besides my vote has already been cast. So this intimidation of the Yes on Prop 8 campaign is kind of foolish by your supporters at this late date. I am not saying you participate in it, but you know what, their signs say the same thing yours do. So naturally people will see the corelation between the two and summarize you must be united as one.
I for one would distance myself from that crowd as quickly as I possibly could. I would not want anyone to think that my opinion on Prop. 8 anyway contributed to that form of ideology.
As I've said before good luck on your campaign, but keep the children out of it and keep your self-respect in tact by avoiding those who have none. "

BJMallory wrote on Oct 29, 2008 6:30 PM:

" Fred, a "mass exodus" of Christian families pulling their children out of public school and putting them in Christian schools? LOL have you checked out the economy lately? Do you have any idea what private school costs? C'mon. And even if you're right - so what? People have the right to put their children in private school if they want. No skin off my nose. My grandson is in kindergarden in public school and if they start teaching him that gay marriage is ok, that's not going to bother me or his parents. If he's straight, it's good for him to learn tolerance. If he's gay, it's VERY good for him to learn that there's nothing "wrong" with him. If you ask me, it's a win-win situation. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 29, 2008 7:20 PM:

" BJMallory wrote on Oct 29, 2008 8:30 PM:

If what I suggest happens I would say in a short time Public education will begin to cost at the same rate as private education. Without taxpayers contributing to something they can't believe in, it won't continue as we know it today.

That is how the voucher could be franchised to the parents. Just don't hit them for school tax, just let them have an equal amount in a voucher to use in a public school. Hell that isn't discrimination it is freedom of choice. Now what you don't think we should have equal rights and freedom of choice, isn't that what you say your argument is all about? All we have to do is to put a choice in the tax column voucher for private school or taxes for public school and we vote.

If the CTA wasn't spending a milliion dollars of it's membership money on Prop 8 teachers might have more benefits, rights and money? Seems to me the CTA forgets who they represent collectively as a Bargaining Agent. This could lead to a lack of support for SEIU? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 29, 2008 7:25 PM:

" BJMallory wrote on Oct 29, 2008 8:30 PM:

Continued - so you can see, there is a possibility and I provided a solution and a method in which to accomodate both sides.

Perhaps when education becomes a real cost for all concerned people will be more concerned about it's content.

There is a myriad of ways to compensate for this issue without being biased or unpleasant about it. But then according to you LGBT are already use to paying higher taxes. So no biggie, right!

When people ask for full freedoms they are entitled to full freedoms, including like when you order at a restuarant the tab or bill for the services. So as they say watch out what you ask for, for you may just get it. "

michael wrote on Oct 29, 2008 8:40 PM:

" Do you think that the Yes on 8 side is the only side that has had signs stolen etc..??? My house was egged because of my No on 8 sign (it's the only one out there...). By the way, I wouldn't put it past the radical right to egg their own homes and pass the blame on the the No on 8 side. I mean, they like to act like the victims in this issue. Wow, people were really upset and rightly so. I wonder how those same people would feel if their current right to marry the adult they love, no matter if they were a man or woman was taken away. I suppose that would make them more angry than a $5 sign being stolen. Think about it. Some couples have signs called "Marriage Certificates" on their walls that after Nov. 4th could be stolen off their wall by the state due to this proposition.. Yeah, disturbing huh? "

michael wrote on Oct 29, 2008 8:51 PM:

" Continued.... In the matter of the kids holding signs etc..., are you saying that parents do not have a right to teach their children right from wrong? I have always seen children holding right to life signs during the life-chain events. I have children, but they were not available during the rally. If they were, I have expalined to them that this proposition is over the freedoms that many have died defending. I'm not ashamed of who I am, and I'm not going to hide that from them. If they had wanted to hold a sign, well, that's my business as a parent. Someone mentioned that CPS should have been called on those with kids at the rally. Even though I'm a Christian, I know how some churches are from visiting or even belonging to them. Just maybe CPS should be called on those parents that force their kids to attend churches that are well, to say it nicely, scaring them into their beliefs by threatening Hell. I haven't posted a lot, but gee, the connections people make are so interesting. How aboue marrying an animal, which was mentioned? "

michael wrote on Oct 29, 2008 8:52 PM:

" they had wanted to hold a sign, well, that's my business as a parent. Someone mentioned that CPS should have been called on those with kids at the rally. Even though I'm a Christian, I know how some churches are from visiting or even belonging to them. Just maybe CPS should be called on those parents that force their kids to attend churches that are well, to say it nicely, scaring them into their beliefs by threatening Hell. I haven't posted a lot, but gee, the connections people make are so interesting. How aboue marrying an animal, which was mentioned? "

michael wrote on Oct 29, 2008 9:07 PM:

" continued.... Animals can't sign a marrige certificate, say "I do", etc...It would be a fairly one sided relationship (yes, I'm being sarcastic). I'd rather have someone more like me. Was it Angie that said that even though she had gay family memebers and friends that she didn't want their "discusting lifestyle forced on others"? I have plenty of gay friends that say that men being with women is "discusting because it's not normal for them". Yes, not normal. Doesn't feel right. Angie, did you wake up one day and say, "Let's see, there are men or women. Which one should I choose to be attracted to?" You are seriously naive. I must say, the reason that there is so much ignorance on this blog is because Hanford as a whole is so undereducated. Only about 26% of the population even graduated from college. You go anywhere else where people are educated etc.. and you will find a lot less narrow minded individuals. "

michael wrote on Oct 29, 2008 9:15 PM:

" continued....And I'm sorry, but I think that God gets pretty weary about being called down on both sides of this issue. The Jesus I read about and know identified with the outcasts, the downtrodden, the ones that were marginalized not the ones that always thought they were right and preached and imposed their rules on everyone else. Gee, he may have even held a No on 8 sign had he been at the rally.... Again, if this passes, it won't be long before it is repealed simply because the kids of today- the voters of tomorrow- don't have the same problems as their parents and grandparents. It's not because of their teachers either. It's because either their best friend, uncle, or someone else they care about is gay and they feel that everyone should be treated the same. No, it wouldn't be a "special right" becasue anyone could marry a man or woman. That makes that law inclusive. OK... I promise not to blog anymore, it's too draining. I'll just send more money to the No on 8 campaign. "

Amanda R wrote on Oct 29, 2008 9:19 PM:

" Prop 8 supporters: When is the YES ON 8 rally? "

Amanda R wrote on Oct 29, 2008 9:20 PM:

" Oh, and on my vacation, I didn't see one single "No on 8" sign all the way down to Santa Barbara. It's not just the valley "bigots". See? "

Melissa wrote on Oct 29, 2008 9:31 PM:

" NHG for me and my family it was a family outing, my sister and brother in law were there as well as their children. My nephew posed for that picture with his aunt then came and sat with me in the grass running and playing. Since there were whole families on the other side of the street I do not see where any of you have anything to say. "

Melissa wrote on Oct 29, 2008 9:43 PM:

" Watchdog Fred My picture has yet to make it in the paper so I do not where you are coming from with that statement. As answer to your question my nephew did in fact color that sign himself, he was also asked what he wanted it to say. You see he saw his aunt making a sign and asked for one too when asked what he wanted it to say he said I Love My Aunties. In which case he sat by Crystal and colored his sign. Second of all I guess you did not read the article as my nephew is three he is not in school. My nephews parents do support our cause and were there, and yes my sister is proud of her son standing beside his family, you see we teach tolerance in our family and she is proud her lessons are coming thru. What he knows is that Aunt Crystal and I want to get married and he wants us to. That is something to be proud of. Also Fred since you stood on the opposite corner, based on your logic, you are guilty by association so you too had children out there. "

Melissa wrote on Oct 29, 2008 10:08 PM:

" Watchdog Fred cont...you want to talk about us having a child out there before age of consent, what about those religions who baptize their children when they are babies? Do they know why they are being baptized? What about the children you were standing on that very corner with, you tell me that because my sign says the same as those who are vandalizing I am associated right? So I guess if you felt strong enough about children not being apart of a rally you would not have been standing on that corner with the children whos parents are voting Yes. I think you are only singling out my nephew because our family is voting No on Prop 8. Fred you are not dealing with someone who is uneducated, I know what you are implying with your paragraph, however I will tell you this, nothing in this article gives any indication of where my nephew lives or where he spends his days so I do not believe he is in any danger. There are alot of children in the paper everyday and no one is attacking them I think it is only because my nephew was standing with us. "

CRYSTAL wrote on Oct 29, 2008 10:19 PM:

" Watchdog Fred...You didn't see any kids in the paper on the yes on 8 side because there were only 2 supporters there at the time the sentinel was there. As for my nephew, he told me what he wanted his sign to say and then colored it himself. If you asked him what it said he would proudly tell you as well. Its funny how I can explain to a 3 year old the difference between Yes and no on 8 and he is smart enough to make the rational decision. You don't have to be a brain scientist to know that its irrational for one human to even think about taking another beings rights away when the other is not breaking any laws. Its funny that you feel the need to warn Melissa of all the sick minds out there when they are all for prop 8. Glad to see you proudly stand on the same side as they do. Since we are all associated I guess that means your mind is just as sick. You ask whats next? Probably inslaving blacks again since we are on the roll with taking away rights. "

CRYSTAL wrote on Oct 29, 2008 10:35 PM:

" Cont...It is sad to think that way, but, that is what it seems. Everyone deserves equality,

NHG...His love = marriage equality because love is love...All love is beautiful...Love is infinite and everyone can make as much as they want. He loves his aunties and it makes no difference if he had an aunt and uncle or 2 aunts or 2 uncles because it does not effect him as a child.He is still healthy, smart, and loved.That is all that matters to him.2nd of all, Nobody tells you what to do with your kids except the law.We were not breaking any lwas by having him come so mind your own bussiness.There is a difference between him coming to a rally and the yes on 8 people having kids in commercials claiming they are learning about same-sex marriage in school.There is so much talk and debating about the subject right now your kids don't need to go to school to learn about it.3rd, This is not mass.They don't teach anything about marriage in sex-ed, and you have to have parents concent to take the class.You don't want them to take it...don't sign the permission slip! "

CRYSTAL wrote on Oct 29, 2008 10:46 PM:

" Cont...I understand why the yes on prop 8 people go through such lengths to try and make people believe what they say and that is because there are so many more reasons to vote no. The only arguement they have is religion and children. Since you all say keep children out then all that is left is religion.Well, thats simply solved with separation of church and state.So really there is no reason to vote yes except to admitt that you are a discriminator.You don't like it cause you wouldn't do it and so you think it is ok to take away my rights.Well then why don't we all get together and find out what you do that we all don't and take away your rights...Sound fair?Take away your right to be different because I don't like it?I'm sure when you flip it around and think about it, its sounds irrational.We are not asking you to like us,not even accept us,just the equal right to be different and love the way it feels natural to us.Nobody voted on your right to marry and its not fair you get to vote on mine...

VOTE NO ON PROP 8!!! "

LadyBug wrote on Oct 29, 2008 11:22 PM:

" Ok Nevada: It doesnt matter what you call it, Marriage & Family or Family unit, its not being taught in the classroom. There is a course in the local high schools called life skills, but I can tell you that Marriage & Family unit is not being taught, wether or not its in the course outline, its not being taught in the classroom. Most people assume that marriage is between a man and a woman so that chapter gets overlooked. "

SueB wrote on Oct 30, 2008 3:57 AM:

" Lots of Christian parents are already sending their kids to Christian schools (and paying taxes to the public schools) or homeschooling their kids.

When my 3 kids were in school, the Christian school let us work on campus in exchange for tuition. I don't know if any of the Christian schools in this state do that but where we lived they did. Most Christian schools (and public too) are desperate for parent volunteers and the ones where we came from were more than happy to let you work for your kids education. Where their is a will, there is a way.

In this day and age, I would never send my kids to a public school. Yes, the Christian schools have the exact same problems, but on a MUCH LESSER SCALE. And the other parents are sending their kids to private school for the same reason and in my experience, are more than willing to work together on any problems. "

Dandre wrote on Oct 30, 2008 6:05 AM:

" You know what Fred whoever egged that church needs to grow up! But you and the party of pedophiles need to get out of my house and definitely get out of our bedrooms. The party of less government thinks it has a right to control what goes on in my life to the point of telling our women what they will do with their bodies. You can’t have a more intrusive government! Conservative values is a scam!
You have been married HOW MANY TIMES?
Its like you’ve had 3 drunk driving accidents with casulities and still think you have the right to deny me a LICENSE because you don’t approve of who is riding in my car! I’ve got 2 words for ya Fred! USE YOUR IMAGINATION!
How dare you judge my children for who they LOVE!
KEEP YOUR MISERY TO YOURSELF, you are in no position to judge anybody else’s record! work on your own life and the people that have been your casualities. Divorce is never pretty and should be outlawed.
Society has paid dearly because of it.
Let me hear you JUSTIFY divorce with the Bible. You remember divorce, the #1 enemy of Marriage. "

O. G. wrote on Oct 30, 2008 6:16 AM:

" Since the elusive gay gene has yet to be discovered, homosexuality must be determined to be a voluntary act. There are a lot of voluntary acts that don't have legal protection but homosexuality is deviance pure and simple. I don't need to quote the Bible - it's common sense.
boy plus boy doesn't go together mechanically and neither does girl plus girl.
What is demonstrable is the lawless deviance seen in gay parades when homosexuality has its way. Google 'images' Folsom Street Fair to see exactly what I'm talking about.
So I really could care less if you guys love your guy friends, but it's not genetic - it's all in your mind. The next step is going to be to remove the male - female/family signs off of public restrooms which are already meaningless to transvestites. Now there's something you parents might want to think about when you let your daughters use the bathrooms at WalMart, Target etc. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 30, 2008 8:03 AM:

" To Dandre, it is not my "Fantasies" that I am providing examples, but rather what the Pandora's Box of not voting YES on Prop 8 could bring about. It is your side that always brings in the loving couples rights. But why is your group always so arbitrary in only asking for gay rights, but the first to claim that my interracial marriage should be deemed null if you gays can't be married. So much for sticking up for everyone's rights. But my side is always for providing the same rights to all, marriage between a man and woman that fights social norms. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 30, 2008 11:14 AM:

" To Dandre: too many of my responses are not making it through so now I am having to save them in a word document, then transfer to the blog, that way I will be able to save and paste as required. Please read Matt 5:31-32, NASB and Matt 19:3-9 which does provide for divorce. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 30, 2008 11:15 AM:

" on a previous post that should have read marriage is between a man and woman that FITS social norms. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 30, 2008 3:10 PM:

" Dandre wrote on Oct 30, 2008 8:05 AM:

One of these days you are gonna fall off that soap box & I hope someone is around to catch you!

I haven't been in your bedroom, nor would I care to be. I stay busy enough in my own. As for your children's choices, that is up to them, but don't be disillusioned into believing that same sex is a gene reflective upon you. To this point there has not been proven a gay/lesbian gene, nor will there ever be. What you all refer to as God given or a signature isn't anything more than an individual's choice for a lifestyle. We make choices all day long everyday, but that has little to do with our God given rights. Yes, Dandre' there is a large difference between choices and rights, but many of you are confused on how that works.

It's amazing to me that EVERYTIME you run out of any sort of tangible argument you refer to me as a pedophile. It's very telling about your personality. Like NHG's mixed marriage gets your goat! Now who's prejudice? "

againtsthegrain wrote on Oct 30, 2008 5:29 PM:

" o.g.: How old were you when you first identified you were heterosexual? Was it a choice or were you born that way? Were there any "influences" in your life that made you that way? To let you in on some scientific proof of whether there is a gay gene or not, there was an autopsy done on a gay man and straight man. Both brains were identified, but on the gay man's brain, one part of was larger than that of the straight man's. Anyway, about your stereotyping on gay parades, it goes way back to the Stonewall Riots in June of 1969. Every gay individual was being picked on, arrested, killed from local police in the Greenwich Village. From there, the gay citizens had enough, they fought back. Thus began the riots. Today's parades are a result from reconizing the oppression, deaths, gay bashings (which still occur today), in rememberance if you'd like, of what happened and still occurs today. Prejudice is everywhere today, no matter race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. If everyone were the same, looked the same, same ideas, etc. It would be a perfect world but no matter what, prejudice will still be around. "

Alihandero wrote on Oct 30, 2008 6:10 PM:

" Hey "Watchdog,"

I believe the term ‘mixed marriage' would not change a bit:

‘Mixed' means not just race mix, but now gender mix; traditional man-woman union might now be man-man or woman-woman, right?

So ‘mixed marriage' means the same thing!

Amazing.

And about voting...

Don't you legally have to change your address with at least the DMV when you move out of the state or the country for any length of time? Isn't that a DMV regulation and CA. law?

Seems like our Swiss friend keeps voting on California local/state issues that do not affect him in his relocated country thousands of miles away. And how is that legal? Or is it fair? Or moral?

Didn't you check this out already, Watchdog?

Oh well, I guess it's: ‘once a voter, always a voter' in this state, eh? "

Dandre wrote on Oct 30, 2008 7:51 PM:

" By the way, Jesus Christ, if He showed up tomorrow would not be waving ‘yes on 8’ signs. He would be counseling the VICTIMS of the damage being done by the HISTORY of ‘bigotry’ behind prop 8. "

wmartinez wrote on Oct 30, 2008 8:23 PM:

" How dare any of you say that God made you a homosexual! Let's dissect this here: Can two women reproduce? Can two men reproduce? Clearly not. It was not GOD's intent to make people homosexual. And let me assure you, God does not make mistakes. Homosexuality is a choice. Everything we do is a choice. Nobody tells us how to live, we make everything up in our minds. You could choose not to be a homosexual, couldn't you? YES. Therefore it is a choice. You say you want equality. There is equality. You can do the same as I can, which is marry someone of the opposite sex. There's nothing unequal about that. The key word here is marry. Marriage is a word from the BIBLE. Can't you just be happy that you are allowed to have a civil union, and not try to take marriage also? By taking the word and the concept of marriage of the church, your main goal is to push your opinion on the church. True Christians know that homosexuality is a detestable sin by reading Leviticus 18:22: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." There is no disputing that. "

againtsthegrain wrote on Oct 30, 2008 9:42 PM:

" This is exactly why I believe in "Speration Of Church and State." I do believe there is a gay gene. As proof, myself, my older sister and older brother are homosexuals. I believe that God made everyone in His image and HE DOES NOT make any mistakes! If everyone on this planet looked the same, had the same ideas, faith, etc., there would be no bigotry, hate, etc. However that will never be the case, even if we were all alike. Someone would complain that one's head was too big or someone's eyes were too narrow, you know, another way for prejudice to thrive. Everyone, every individual should know intolerance is a test in Christianity or whatever religion they are. NO ON PROP 8! "

Melissa wrote on Oct 31, 2008 12:32 AM:

" wmartinez first of all I choose to be gay the same day you choose to be straight, Second marriage was not started in the bible, marriage was around long before christianity. Third there is separation of church and state for a reason, not everyone in this country is Christian. We live in a free country, we are supposed to be free to worship who, when or IF we want. We have freedom of speach, freedom of expression, freedom of press, persuit of happiness, do you get my drift yet? All those freedoms and many more are protected EQUALLY under the law. So you have the right to live as a narrowminded Christian and you are protected under the law, why should I not be protected EQUALLY in my persuit of happiness? In my freedom of expression? In my freedom of religion? Why should the law single me out because I was born different than you? "

Alihandero wrote on Oct 31, 2008 5:37 AM:

" Someone in another post on a similar/related topic stated that most sodomy laws were repealed and that helps pave the way for homosexual marriage being condoned by society as a ‘normal' thing.

I never said sodomy was illegal; I said it was immoral and unnatural and not at all healthful.

Even nonreligious people will have to admit that there are certain organs that nature, biology, and evolution have differentiated as to purpose and function.

For example, there are organs for excretion and there are organs for reproduction. Nature has designed them for two separate functions, not an unhealthful mix-and-match scenario.

You had better believe that it is your personal choice to mix up the two to express exactly what? A desire to reproduce? To have ‘fun?' The emotion of ‘love?' Is there an identified or mutated gene that makes you confuse the two organs in order to express your ‘love?'?

No, folks, no one can force you to misidentify and misuse the parts of your body. You have to choose to do that - to make a conscious, voluntary choice. "

Alihandero wrote on Oct 31, 2008 5:51 AM:

" How the Homosexual marriage redefinition hurts me and most others:

By giving sodomy the illusion of total acceptance afforded by traditional marriage, we now, as a society, are being forced to change what we believe in - as a society, not individually, mind you.

Children will learn that it's "good' and normal and ‘OK' for man to marry a man and a women to marry a woman.

Somewhere they will learn how to have homosexual sex. Does that not scare the bejesus out of most family folk? Where do the get gay sex info from: teachers, lesbians, gay men, high school gay club meetings, straight or gay parents? What about the education for trannys? Bisexuals? Pansexuals. I am more than a bit confused.

So this does affect me, my family, and scores of others.

Sorry, standing up proudly to vote 'yes' on Prop 8 is not ‘above my pay grade' and I will vote yet again as I did in Prop. 22 to not let it happen on my watch.

Defend the word, people, and the concept and the tradition of ‘marriage.'

Vote YES on PROP. 8! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 31, 2008 7:03 AM:

" Alihandero wrote on Oct 30, 2008 8:10 PM:

Al, the way the voting thing was explained to me is the registration is now conducted through DMV records, no longer through only voter registration. So what happens is as long as he maintains his California driver's license, with the incorrect local address on it. It won't come into question, unless he is selected for jury duty, which is how jurists are selected now through "DMV printouts". But once he has been selected to receive a jury summons then it will be sent to the address on his driver's license. If they get no response a warrant can be issued for his arrest. Also,if he contacts the Jury Selection group and states he can't serve on jury duty because he doesn't live at that address. Then a Felony Warrant for perjury can be issued which takes him off the voter registration and jury selection process and his passport will be flagged and then next time he comes through customs he will be picked up on the felony warrant. That is how it was explained to me. Just a matter of letting nature take its course. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 31, 2008 7:12 AM:

" Dandre wrote on Oct 30, 2008 9:51 PM:
Who better to judge the history than Jesus?

Secondly back on your intrique of calling me names. I met my wife when she was 29 years of age, had been married once and had a son already. So how you get pedophile out of that is beyond me. She voluntarily married me and in fact insisted on it. You too quickly speak without full perspective on most subjects and when you do so against me, you will be called on it everytime Dandre'. You've a past as well, a rock & roll, drug infested sexual past, which seldom gets discussed on this blog, but everytime you run out of an argument you start calling people names and expect to get away with it. The only divorce I had with a child involved for your information has grown to the age of 32 and the divorce seems to mean very little to him at this stage. In fact, I was instrumental when his wife did the same thing to him. In helping him get his head on straight, so he could move on. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 31, 2008 7:23 AM:

" Dandre wrote on Oct 30, 2008 9:51 PM:
You want to condemn me for making two choices that I thought were for a lifetime and to my own surprise were not. I hope no one condems you for your wrong choices through life, because quite evidently you haven't always been happily married and devoted to your wife. Those statements are according to your own words on the subject.
My only guilt over the issues now, is one I have to discuss it in such a public forum because you can't understand the deffinition of divorce or how it happens & the bloggers have to read this stuff.
I do in my case at least have the satisfaction of being one of the first fathers in California to be given primary physical custody. My wife and I shared legal custody. I know that doesn't mean much to you but it means the world to me, I was in his life everyday from birth until his 18th birthday, when he moved across the country. So I wear that badge with honor, I wouldn't miss one minute of the time we had then and now. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 31, 2008 10:04 AM:

" To Alihandero, from my experience you don't need to do any of those things that you are asking WDF about. If Scott is still a US Citizen, he must claim all of his worldly income, and pay taxes on it, both federal and California. Normally you are exempt for the first $75,000, but this figure may have raised since I last filed an IRS 2555 form. So as long as Scott remains registerd and files his California tax returns, then he is eligible to vote in California. But if he doesn't report his worldly income, then no, he shouldn't be able to register and vote in Califonria because then he should be considered a felon for tax evasion. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 31, 2008 12:27 PM:

" Alihandero, Scott may do what I did, used my parents address as my legal address. They would forward any jury summons to me, I would respond saying that I would serve if they would cover my transportation costs, when they saw that it would cost a few thousand to fly me back, they would excuse the summons. So in this example I have to support Scott, though I don't know all of his specifics. But basically he is doing nothing illegal unless he isn't doing all of the things that I mentioned, file tax paperwork and have a "legal" address in the U.S. Trust me when I say that I do not support the majority of Scott's posts, but like the rest of us, he is entitled to them. My ballot will be marked YES on 8!!!!!!!! "

Matt wrote on Oct 31, 2008 1:40 PM:

" wmartinez-

I do believe that God made me and that I was made as a gay man. I don't believe that God makes mistakes, either.

But why is it a requirement that God's creation of me must lead to procreation? God certainly creates people who are, for various biological reasons, sterile and unable to produce children. "

Matt wrote on Oct 31, 2008 1:45 PM:

" Alihandero-

Check your biology books again.

Unless your body was built a little differently than the rest of us, your body parts used for reproduction and excretion are inextricable- and I don't just mean the use of your urethra.

On another note- if the sex act isn't being used for pleasure by nearly every heterosexual person it would be the greatest shock of my lifetime! If you and your wife are only doing it for reproductive purposes and derive no pleasure from it, you're probably doing it wrong. "

BJMallory wrote on Oct 31, 2008 3:01 PM:

" WMartinez, how dare you speak for God?

Do you follow ALL the teachings of Levitcus or just the ones that suit you? For example, do you eat pork or shellfish? Big no-no in Leviticus. Seems these animals are considered by that book to be 'unclean'. However, when Jesus spoke on the subject of so-called "unclean" food, he said, "not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but what cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." Do you observe and keep the rituals of Yom Kippur? This is also a rule according to Leviticus. Do you cut your hair, or, if you're a man, do you not grow a beard? Uh oh...you're gonna be in dutch with the Lord, better check that book out a little closer. Do you stand when older people enter the room? Leviticus tells you to, you know.

Yet the only thing people ever seem to quote from Levitcus is that homosexuality is a sin. Seems that book says a lot of other things are, too. "

WATCHDOG FRED wrote on Oct 31, 2008 3:05 PM:

" To NHG so in otherwords what you are saying is the following pertans: "Generally speaking, if you live and work outside of the United States, then you can exclude all or part of your foreign wages from US taxation."

So as a Civilian Employee abroad he is allowed to not pay taxes and still vote? Boy you talk about the best of both worlds. This is news to me, I thought only the military had the no tax provisions abroad. I had no idea it included civilians making a liveable wage as well, learn something new every day. But I still think you are wrong about the address, because he is giving a false address to the DMV, which I believe is against the law. The Driver's License is issued upon guarantee of a correct address be on the Driver's License, If his mom's address on his driver's license it is the same as giving false information to a law enforcement officer. Which is against the law and carries a stiff penalty. It is also an offense warranting arrest. In fact that may fall under homeland security violation as well. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Oct 31, 2008 3:20 PM:

" NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 31, 2008 2:27 PM:

I looked up the information you mentioned and the current amount is up to $94,000.00 may be determined exempt from Federal and State taxes. So the presumption that he had made the comment that he still pays taxes is in actuality a statement that he still files taxes but doesn't pay any taxes. Is that what you are saying NHG? So although he doesn't contribute tax monies he has a right to vote on issues that would use tax money to pay for different projects, is that correct? So he could vote on a billion dollar tax give-a-way and not be effected by the paying of the billion dollars? I'm just trying to make sure I have this entire concept correct, NHG! It's no skin off my nose, I could care either way, because if what he is doing is against the law, it will come out. That's why I don't feel it necessary to take it any farther. If what you say is true, I think we as citizens need to make some changes to ensure only taxpayers vote on tax issues. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 31, 2008 3:48 PM:

" NotHomeGrown,

The subject of my voting status seems to be a popular one amongst the uninformed on this forum. As you can see, they often go to great lenghts to make me look "un-American", even after I have provided them with all of the available information regarding my voting status time and time again.

As far as taxes are concerned, I have all of my bases covered.

I thank you for your common sense approach the issues and levelheadedness even in spite of our political and ideological differences. "

Alihandero wrote on Oct 31, 2008 4:28 PM:

" Well, Matt,

I checked the biology books again as you suggested.

Sorry to be so blunt but you admitted are a homosexual man, correct?

You have an anus and a rectum as well, yes?

You have a penis, dare I assume?

And one is not designed by nature to fit into another UNLESS YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO.

So don't tell me your 'genes' and biologic imperative MAKE you do something unnatural.

End of biology lesson. "

Dandre wrote on Oct 31, 2008 4:38 PM:

" We are ALL conceived ‘female’, Fred, and the ‘splitting’ chromosome that makes the ‘male’ is “UNIQUE” in each of us! YOU and the Bigotted ignorance that DEMONIZES that UNIQUENESS are the modern day ‘witch hunters’ and God’s evolution dwindles your numbers daily. It wasn’t long ago that violence against gays was accepted and society has at least progressed this far.
NO ON 8! "

againtsthegrain wrote on Oct 31, 2008 5:30 PM:

" Matt, Melissa, Crystal... Couldn't agree with you more on all your justifications, 100%!! Keep up your beliefs and keep on letting your voice being heard! No on Prop 8!! "

Alihandero wrote on Oct 31, 2008 6:26 PM:

" Scott apparently can dictate what we residents must do, apparently:

Voter Registration in California

"RESIDENCY"
Section 3 of Article II of the California Constitution requires the Legislature to "define
residence."

A residence, for purposes of voter registration, is the address specified by the voter.

A voter may have more than one residence, but may only register to vote at the one he or she considers his or her domicile.

For example, a voter may have homes in Red Bluff and San Diego, spending a portion of his or her time in each. In this case, the voter should register at the one address he or she considers
the principal residence, at which he or she has the intention of remaining, and to which he or she, when away, intends to return.

A person's residence status depends upon both his or her action and intent. If he or she moves to another state or another country, but intends to return, that person may still claim residency in California. However, he or she cannot register in another state and also continue to vote in California."

So when do you "intend" to move back, Scott? "

Scott Tucker wrote on Nov 1, 2008 9:29 AM:

" In relative terms, I would say sooner or later. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 1, 2008 11:57 AM:

" To: Scott Tucker wrote on Oct 31, 2008 5:48 PM:

" NotHomeGrown,

The subject of my voting status seems to be a popular one amongst the uninformed on this forum. As you can see, they often go to great lenghts to make me look "un-American", even after I have provided them with all of the available information regarding my voting status time and time again.

No Scott, all we need do is let you open your own mouth and you make yourself look that way. For instance a statement like I have my bases covered on taxes sounds like something a crook from ENRON might say, or one of the four Democrats involved in Keating everyone wants to bring up just before the election, for whatever reason. Please send me your address and I will list it so I don't have to pay taxes either, no wonder all the businesses are going overseas to avoid taxes, just like the expatriot and he had us convinced it was for love. Another example of how some are dupped into believing demobrat spewing of lies and reasoning. Thank Goodness most of us didn't buy it! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 1, 2008 12:06 PM:

" To: Dandre wrote on Oct 31, 2008 6:38 PM:

Yes and then we all turn from polly wogs into frogs and hop from pedal to pedal the rest of our born days.

You can rest assured no one in my family has hunted witches since the 1400's. Not even Dr. Frankenstein, or his prodigy Frankenstein, nor have we chased the ghosts and goblins other than on Halloween, my friend Dandre'. However, we do keep a supply of sharp stakes and silver bullets on hand at all times for corrupt devil worshipers.

I forget who posted it recently but they reminded us that the devil knows the bible front to back and recites it often pointing out only the scripture he sees in his favor. Does that remind you of yourself? It should because that is a perfect description of the deciple Dandre'.

As for Obama he could be the anti-christ too, if you care to compare him to the description contained in the Bible. Very popular, A Magnificent Orator, Sharp tongued and quick witt. Well two out of four isn't bad. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 1, 2008 12:14 PM:

" To: Dandre' "Its like you’ve had 3 drunk driving accidents with casulities and still think you have the right to deny me a LICENSE because you don’t approve of who is riding in my car! I’ve got 2 words for ya Fred! USE YOUR IMAGINATION!"

First of all, I've had two divorces not three and secondly use your imagination is three words not two. I know that higher math throws you everytime, but try and keep up, will ya.

I'll submit to a blood test for alcohol anytime you do and I bet I come back negative, how about you? Diabetics shouldn't drink, the lower slower levels of alcohol sugar take longer to take effect. That is why diabetics who still drink risk going in to diabetic comas after they drink alot. That is why I quit drinking except one glass of champagne with my wife on New Year's and once again on our anniversary. If the good Lord decides to take me then, sobeit.

But thanks for stopping in, I hope you feel like you got your nose broke. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 1, 2008 12:15 PM:

" To: Dandre' you might want to think about engaging your brain before you do your fingers if you are attempting a battle of witts with someone!
Just a friendly suggestion. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 1, 2008 12:41 PM:

" WDF, I agree that Scott shouldn't be able to vote on anything other than for Federal elections. I personnally do not recall voting for anything on a local basis during my 20 years of overseas work. There are other specifics that you have to meet also to be eligible for the tax exclusion, one is not declaring to the host country that you are free of their taxation, and another is a specified time frame that you have to reside overseas. For example if Scott should travel back to the states for more than X amount of days then he isn't eligible for the tax break. The big reason this law was created was to prevent movie stars from making millions of dollars on a movie in a foreign country and not trying to pay taxes on it. Even Muhammed Ali attempted to exclude his earnings when he fought in Africa, but he didn't meet the residency test. I had to pay more taxes in 1978 than President Nixon did, as I was forced out of Iran before I had meet the time test. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 1, 2008 12:45 PM:

" WDF, remember that you and I are usually on the same page, and I was just trying to ensure that the facts are on the table. We can't accuse Scott of doing anything illegal if in fact he remains with the rules of the law. But that doesn't mean that we have to agree with his statements, and therefor whenever we can we need to produce the facts in black and white. Leave no room for error or interpretation, but unfortunately whenever we do them still seem to spin the article by some means. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 2, 2008 1:00 AM:

" To NHG, I have no bone to pick with you, and for the most part we do agree on most things. Scott's legal problems are just that and I've taken that stance all along. I know people in town if I wanted to drop a bug in someone's ear it wouldn't be a problem. But that isn't how I roll, I am above that back stabbing approach on anyone. If I can't talk you to death, I don't deserve to win the argument and I think most will agree, I am pretty darn good at that.
I do take pride in having my ducks in a row and my information correct. But I think alot of what Scott professes is just another way of splitting hairs. I know in my days in the service, I know I didn't vote in local elections. The military pretty much had a standard ballot with Federal Candidates only. Back then there were no such things as right ins either.
When all this local stuff became part of the foreign ballot is news to me. But won't doubt it for lack of knowledge myself. "

Dandre wrote on Nov 2, 2008 6:31 AM:

" Fred if 'hot air' was a currency, you'd be a millionaire. "

MelMAOB wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:05 PM:

" Oh my coming out stories??? I knew I was not heterosexual in about 1st grade...knew even more so in 6th grade, in 7th grade I tried to have a same sex wedding, went incognito for a bit in high school and finally came out out in like 2002. 1st grade ...yes...I was young but I knew. My son is now in 1st grade and he knows...he knows that prop 8 is bad because it won't allow his mothers to get married and he wants us married. He also knows that every family is different. I brought my son with us as we walked informing voters of prop. 8. Not for the illusion of support..but for the fact that he does support us. We teach him diversity, he knows that some families have 2 moms, or a grandma, a father and mother, a aunt and uncle...The worse part of the vote yes protestors were not the kids on their side, but the mentally handi-capped individual who I can just about guarentee can't vote....way to go "

MelMAOB wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:11 PM:

" Oh chuck...now don't be silly. You can't marry your frog or goat or pig because they can not be deemed compentent to know what they are doing within our court system. However..if you want to sleep with your pets...I will vote in favor of the marriage....Oh you know.. maybe a monkey would be a safer bet for passing competency...
My partner and I have the right equipment...and thanks to the sperm banks we have the proper fluid...People who can't concieve can't convieve...apples and apples there buddy.
If marriage is built on the basis that children will come from it....people who can't concieve shouldn't be allowed to be married...Thank goodness I am not some reproduction nut case...marriage in America is about love and all those feelings not if you can' have babies.... "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 2, 2008 7:25 PM:

" Dandre wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:31 AM:

" Fred if 'hot air' was a currency, you'd be a millionaire. "

Very good Dandre did it take you six months to think of that one or did someone tell it to you.
Because if brains were gun powder you couldn't combine enough to blow the butt out of a nat.

I suppose then I should be tickeled to death and feel much more patriotic as being a millionaire of hot air to pay essentially eveyone else's taxes and start a welfare system for the Middle Class as well. Isn't that the sermon your preacher gives to all us people who just don't have compassion for the really lazy.

The economy of this system and the middle class use to be a group of people who work hard to attain success and was able to appreciate a little wealth. Now they are penalized for working harder and you want to take away their added income earned on their overtime and hard work and redistribute the wealth to those who would rather punch an 8 hour time clock. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 2, 2008 7:30 PM:

" Dandre wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:31 AM:

" Fred if 'hot air' was a currency, you'd be a millionaire. "

Why should the hard working once again suffer to support another level of Welfare in this country. You complain about the wealthy, most of whom did not start out that way. Do you think KFC when it was owned by it's original owner started off rich because he wore a bowtie and coat? Do you think Dave Thomas who grew up in an orphanage was independently wealthy in the beginning? Come on Dandre you remove the reason for achieving goals and goals will not be achieved. We have always applauded and rewarded success in this contry now you want to penalize them with higher taxes. Do you seriously believe I make over 250k a year? I want people put back to work, I don't want to pad the wallet of those too lazy to work a little harder.
What's next we charge an excise tax to employers for every new employee they put to work. What else are you democraps gonna due to penalize success. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 2, 2008 7:34 PM:

" Dandre wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:31 AM:

" Fred if 'hot air' was a currency, you'd be a millionaire. "

Ok wisenhimer you claim to have all the answers well why haven't you answered my original question to you regarding this windfall tax break the Middle Class is gonna receive. How many new jobs do you peraonally want to guarantee you can create, fulltime, year around out of your tax break Obama wants to give to you? Simply answer the question what new jobs will you create out of Obama's tax reform.

Now McCain's so called welfare of the rich at least stands a chance of creating more jobs. With tax credits and tax reduction we stand a chance of not only creating more new jobs but also keeping those new jobs on United States Soil where they truly provide benefit to this country. He has stated plainly if you tax the tax reduction and run to another country with your business then the reduction on your U.S. base businesses is lost as well as the fleeing one. What is so tuff to understand about that principle? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 2, 2008 7:41 PM:

" The below listed comment is just more evidence of Dandre' running out of facts and intelligent information and relying on name calling to try and win his arguments. Didn't work for Tricky Dicky doesn't work for you either, most people who post on here are intelligent enough to know you even if the label is missing from your can Dandre'.
You spew a lot of venom but what actually sticks to the wall is so minute larva don't even feed off of it. Deffinition included for your benefit:

The newly hatched, earliest stage of any of various animals that undergo metamorphosis, differing markedly in form and appearance from the adult.

Your constant banging down the patriotic and ethical people who post here is your calling card and you give it away in so many ways it is almost comical when you begin your ranting and raving.


Dandre wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:31 AM:

" Fred if 'hot air' was a currency, you'd be a millionaire. " "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 2, 2008 7:43 PM:

" The below listed comment is just more evidence of Dandre' running out of facts and intelligent information and relying on name calling to try and win his arguments. Didn't work for Tricky Dicky doesn't work for you either, most people who post on here are intelligent enough to know you even if the label is missing from your can Dandre'.
You spew a lot of venom but what actually sticks to the wall is so minute, larva don't even feed off of it. Deffinition included for your benefit:

The newly hatched, earliest stage of any of various animals that undergo metamorphosis, differing markedly in form and appearance from the adult.

Your constant banging down the patriotic and ethical people who post here is your calling card and you give it away in so many ways it is almost comical when you begin your ranting and raving.


Dandre wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:31 AM:

" Fred if 'hot air' was a currency, you'd be a millionaire. " "

WATCHDOG FRED wrote on Nov 3, 2008 8:06 AM:

" Dandre wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:31 AM:

" Fred if 'hot air' was a currency, you'd be a millionaire. "

Hey thanks for the compliment "Rock Star" you can address the check to Watchdog Fred and make it a cashiers check please. "

Scott Tucker wrote on Nov 3, 2008 9:24 AM:

" Very concise! "

Matt wrote on Nov 3, 2008 12:47 PM:

" Looks like somebody got under Watchdog Fred's skin... "

Deb wrote on Nov 3, 2008 3:01 PM:

" Well, it's the eve of the election. Hope everyone has either voted or will be voting. My parents always said, if you don't vote you can't complain, So go vote everyone! "

WATCHDOG FRED wrote on Nov 3, 2008 3:57 PM:

" Matt wrote on Nov 3, 2008 2:47 PM:

" Looks like somebody got under Watchdog Fred's skin... "

More like a "blood sucking mosquito". honestly Matt. "

WATCHDOG FRED wrote on Nov 3, 2008 4:06 PM:

" Matt wrote on Nov 3, 2008 2:47 PM:

My ire isn't really at Dandre it is his politic that claims other people's wealth so they can redistribute it to those less willing to work a ten or twelve hour day to earn it for themselves.

When you remove the carrot from the working people you will find they really don't care to work as hard. That is my case simply stated and I honestly can't blame them.

This country has always rewarded those that were willing to work a little harder and achieve a little more, now Nobama wants to take from the hard working and give to the lazy. What kind of reward do you call that, oh you want to be lazy and not produce today so here, here is 10% more for doing nothing. Oh and I am taking it from your friend who provided 20% more today than anyone else did. That's bullcrap, I don't care who you are, so yes after working my tail off for thirty five years that ticks me off But evidently you don't know what it is to achieve either. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 3, 2008 6:54 PM:

" To: Scott Tucker wrote on Nov 3, 2008 11:24 AM:

" Very concise! "

Very good, I thought with your blinders in place you wouldn't notice. Is it still the witching hour for the school marms, in Switzerland?

Night, Night. "

Crystal wrote on Nov 3, 2008 9:14 PM:

" wmartinez wrote on Oct 30, 2008 10:23 PM:

First off...I was born gay as well.You say god makes no mistakes and I say he created everything for a reason.Maybe he created homosexuals because we,unlike heterosexuals,have ONLY PLANNED pregnancies.There are no mistakes.There is no getting knocked up and dumping babies in garbage cans.Instead there are two LOVING parents that plan long and hard to make sure that when the day comes when we do adopt or go through the extent of artificial planning,our child will grow healthy,and loved.Maybe GOD said that enough is enough with heteros just laying with anybody and everybody reproducing over and over populating our planet with children in group homes and foster care that grow up in jail not even knowing god.Love is love.The last time I checked love is not a sin either.And don't waist your time preaching to me the differences because I worship different than you.The last time I checked this was the land of the free,and I choose eternity in hell for a lifetime of happiness.Thats my fate and its none of your bussiness.You judgeing is just as big of a sin and you choose to act anyway.I'll see you there. "

O. G. wrote on Nov 4, 2008 5:07 PM:

" againtsthegrain wrote: “To let you in on some scientific proof of whether there is a gay gene or not, there was an autopsy done on a gay man and straight man. Both brains were identified, but on the gay man's brain, one part of was larger than that of the straight man's.”
You call that “proof?” I hate to break it to you but that’s no proof!” Even if you could determine the specific size of a part of the brain determined a specific action, and even if it was repeatable in every case, and even if there were thousands of cases, you would still lack the evidence you need to make such a statement because you haven’t identified whether the repeated behavior caused the difference or if it was that way from birth. So you’re whole point is moot. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 4, 2008 9:16 PM:

" To all liberals congratualtions on the outcome of your fixed election. I will do my best to be as disrespectful to your candidate as you were to mine. I will support Obama as much as you all joined together to support Bush. I do respect him as president but I do not have to like the fact that he is, just like you didn't have to like Bush.

I find it very amuzing that on the day of election that the Prime Minister of Iraq announced he wants American Troop commitment for the next three years. So it doesn't look like Obama will be keeping his most important promise after all, now does it?

Secondly, he said he would be read day one, does that mean my american dollar will buy more on January 20, 2009 than it does today?

There again falsehoods prevail and will I have medical coverage as good as Senator Obama on January 20, 2009 another broken promise.

Well I guess he wasn't ready to start from day one then was he? You should not promise what you know you can't deliver. "

pickle wrote on Nov 4, 2008 10:04 PM:

" Ahh Fred your such a sore looser.

At least you won Prop 8 cheer up. The NEW generation of america has spoken. Your a dying breed unfortunatly for you. The 18-40 have spoken and we will run this country from now on. Not on fear and bigotry but on peace and equality. You had best get busy living or get busy dying. Was it Clint who said that? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 5, 2008 5:40 AM:

" To: pickle wrote on Nov 5, 2008 12:04 AM:

I'm not a sore loser, we have just traded places, I will report on every mistake, mistep, failed promise and failure of Obama. Just like the 18 to 40 group pointed out about McCain and Bush.
What you don't like it when the tables are turned.

When the National Anthem disappears and is replaced by a song for a Coca~Cola Commercial. When the flag is no longer honored and the Presidential Seal is replaced, you will see the change you 18 - 40's voted for. You demonstrate your disrespect by putting down people who have fought and earned the rights you so take for granted. When all the old foggies are gone, who will fight your wars. When the Veterans decide they are being led by an untested CIC and decide to revolt, then what happens? Will you rush into the battle zone and grab that rifle for Obama? I didn't think so.

You better gather water, emergency equipment and keep it close. Because not only did you win last night so did Alqueda and the Taliban. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 5, 2008 5:46 AM:

" To: pickle wrote on Nov 5, 2008 12:04 AM:

Did you notice in his exceptance speach last night that Obama admits for the first time he cannot accomplish his promises in his first term. What does that tell you about this all inclusive gonna solve all your problems in the first minute I am elected?

Your personal attack and wish that I die tells me all I need to know about you. I can't believe a death wish was allowed through by the moderator. But like you said; things are changing.

You are correct I am proud that Proposition 8 passed and even prouder that I live in a county where 75% voted like I did. That tells me I am not alone on this issue and should tell you everything is not gonna fall through the loop holes in Obama's election. I've never been prouder to be a King's County Resident. But it was not just King's County voting on that one, those Justices were sent a loud and clear message last night. It's much more difficult to overturn an amendment than a simple proposition on the ballot. "

jrc wrote on Nov 5, 2008 10:34 AM:

" We voted against it because at some point the line must be drawn. Marriage equals a man and woman as nature intended.

Do we draw the line at man/man or woman/woman? Or do we draw the line at polygamy? Commune lifestyle? Beastiality?

Two things that I consider absolute. Marriage and the flag. Flag burning should be a crime, not freedom of expression.

Editor: take out the offending word if you must but please let this be posted. "

cynic wrote on Nov 5, 2008 10:49 AM:

" Sorry Pickle - Fred is not a member of a dying breed - but a growing breed. The ban has now been passed TWICE by Californian voters. Our Valley is in tremedous growth and maybe (I said maybe) someday we can outvote our liberal friends on the coast - oh wait . . . I think we already did. And, since you want to throw Fred into the "old foggie" category - watch out. Soon the Baby Boomers will become the voting majority. "

againtsthegrain wrote on Nov 5, 2008 12:18 PM:

" o.g.: Read on...
http://www.shaktitechnology.com/gaybrain.htm

Next time, research for yourself! "

againtsthegrain wrote on Nov 5, 2008 12:23 PM:

" o.g.: Don't forget this one either!! ;)
http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?language=english&type=article&article_id=218392238 "

jeff wrote on Nov 5, 2008 1:09 PM:

" jrc,
Marriage equals a man and a woman as nature intended? Believe me; nature couldn’t care less who marries who. Marriage is a man made concept not a natural one. If two consenting adults want to enter into a plural marriage then yes they should be allowed to. Bestiality is a bit different; I’ll back that the day animals can say “I do”.

Cynic,
Fred is a dying breed and so are you. Did you notice how the percentage of people in favor of Prop 8 dropped from the last time? So what if Baby Boomers become the voting majority. They are already voting, becoming the majority won’t change anything except that Baby Boomers are more liberal than our current senior citizens, so if anything this is bad news for you. For example, my parents are Baby Boomers and they both voted for Obama and against Prop 8. "

RobertD wrote on Nov 5, 2008 1:59 PM:

" I'm sure the issue is not settled as numerous court challenges will ensue, but I find it ironic that the NO side hung their hat on the belief that marriage was a civil right while the two groups most associated with civil rights in the past fifty years (Hispanic-Americans and African-Americans) overwhelmingly (around 70%) voted FOR Prop 8. Apparently those who have fought so hard for real civil rights do not view marriage in such a way. Maybe those opposed to Prop 8 should sue the NAACP or UFW for not promoting their view of civil rights. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 5, 2008 3:55 PM:

" To: jeff wrote on Nov 5, 2008 3:09 PM:

Well then there must be 75% of the electorate in Hanford that is passing away with me there Jeff. That is the total who voted for Yes on 8 within the confinds of Kings County.

You don't have since enough to fear the baby boomer's because we haven't organized and haven't shown you what a generation sticking together can do. By all accounts we outnumber you about two to one and your first indicator is going to be when your own Social Security doubles in about three years. When you have to start paying for your mom and dad's and yes even my social security, just like we paid for our parents while we were working.
Obama and ten Democratic Congresses aren't gonna change that one buddy boy. Because another democrap about sixty years ago set this train wreck into motion. Your own spending isn't gonna bankrupt you it will be social security and Medicare that will end your pipe dreams and yes you will be paying it for us all until we do die, each and every one of us. Surprise! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 5, 2008 4:05 PM:

" To: RobertD wrote on Nov 5, 2008 3:59 PM:

The simplest of reasons for your points and well made points I might add. Is the groups you refer to have the God given sense to be able to establish between a choic and a right. They understand that a choice should be voted down whereby rights are always passed.

Yes even those that the LGBT try and use as their example for their fight, realize it is apples and elephant dung. They don't by the right to be gay/lesbian message. Perhaps they aren't the one's we should deport after all.

To coin a popular phrase that was all over television: "Whether you like it or not" Proposition 8 passed with flying colors. So put that in your pipe and smoke it Gavin. I think we ought to have a party at the river or the drive in or all over town.

75% of Kings County made the right decision at the right time. Those figures came from the Hanford Sentinel this morning. "

B. wrote on Nov 6, 2008 6:24 AM:

" What part of no don`t you people understand? Calif. have spoken once again, we do not want your kind of marriage. Get over it. All your protesting & crying is ridiculas. Here`s a good idea, move to another state that does support your kind. Try Mass. it`s the most liberal state in the nation. And take SF with you. Uncle Teddy will welcome you with open arms and a stiff drink. "

jeff wrote on Nov 6, 2008 8:35 AM:

" Fred,

You’ve missed the point I made to Cynic. Baby Boomers are already voting. It’s not as if once they become the majority they will start. You are stating yourself to be a baby boomer, correct? Well haven’t you already been voting your whole life? The Baby Boomer generation is not full of Christian Conservative Republicans.

Sorry but Social Security is doing just fine. The scare of Social Security running out is a myth. Will I eventually have to pay more into Social Security? Yes of course I will. The cost of living will increase, the median job income in the county will increase etc. etc. This is why people pay more and this is why there is no problem with Social Security. You explicitly state how the program works in your comment and complain about it. Well if you hate it so much don’t take any of the money. Everyone pays into Social Security for another generation. When I’m retired everyone working at that time will be paying my Social Security because I had paid for yours. What’s to be scared of? Nothing, you are only scared because you don’t understand simple math. "

Deb wrote on Nov 6, 2008 12:15 PM:

" RobertD: I would suggest that strong religious beliefs play a huge part in the Latino/African American vote on this issue, It's not a mystery... "

Alihandero wrote on Nov 6, 2008 1:53 PM:

" Hey Watchdog,

Let not your heart be troubled.

Not just our state, but Arizona and Florida voted against homosexual marriage.

I wonder just how much this hi-speed rail will wind up costing all of us, though? And 'all of the jobs it will bring' . . . and 'clean air' . . . what a crock!

Oh, well, since we gotta let the chickens roam free now, I guess they really can come home to roost, so to speak.

I am such a ‘dumb cluck' as my father would say! "

SuziQ wrote on Nov 6, 2008 3:00 PM:

" Hey Jeff, are you the same one who said in June that gas prices wouldn't go down if offshore drilling was allow. Well the Democrats were forced to change their mind and voted to allow the drilling and just look at the gas prices. Are you ever right? "

jeff wrote on Nov 6, 2008 4:05 PM:

" Well SuziQ please explain to me how that has done anything to affect gas prices seeing as how no one is actually doing any new offshore drilling at the moment? If you kept up with current events you would know that it was a loss of demand that caused OPEC nations to drop the price – that plus oil future speculation – also due to a drop in demand. The drop in demand was all due to the economy because people simply couldn’t afford to buy as much gas as they used to.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/22/business/worldbusiness/22opec.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96070784

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12400801/

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/opec-faces-uphill-battle-oil/story.aspx?guid=%7BF3A77DD1-39E6-4C4A-9525-20F67841548B%7D

Am I ever right? Pretty much most of the time and this was no exception. Do you ever know what you’re talking about? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 6, 2008 5:17 PM:

" To: Jeff, I disagree alot of the Seniors who haven't retired yet are not being put into the Senior Voting Programs as of yet. As they retire and attend Senior Centers and become less active at work and more active in Politics they will be encouraged to vote as a block to have a larger effect. I am telling you that block is in favor of Prop 8 and many issues you think will be steam rollered over.
Nobama is not the only one who knows how to organize. AARP also sends out voting information there are many avenues that the current Baby Boomers involved in day to day work are not aware of, I certainly wasn't.
Also I can do simple math with my parents generation their were two to three baby boomers paying each social security recipient. In your case the baby boomers outnumber you so much that it will be three or four of us to one of you, so do the math and see how much more you are gonna have to pay out. We are double or triple your population so the money is gonna be more per person. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 6, 2008 5:28 PM:

" To: Alihandero wrote on Nov 6, 2008 3:53 PM:

Ali, I can't help it in the issues nearest and dearest to my heart this turn of events on President really makes me grow worry. For the first time our country being involved in two wars will have a CIC who is not behind the boots on the ground, the sailors on the ships and the airman in the air. That makes me heavy hearted and worried, so I have been busy in prayer asking for the protection of them all.
You know and I know Alqueda will test Barry, and untested inexperienced and non-military minded individual. As I said in another blog what does he rely on a flip of a coin or his vast military experience? I'm afraid the coin will win everytime as he has no military experience.

Thirdly, I am confused we have to let the chicks roam free and report them if they get out. But we don't get notified if our daughters are getting an abortion behind our backs. Explain please!

Your father was right I'm a dumb cluck too! "

Melissa wrote on Nov 6, 2008 8:28 PM:

" I am glad to see all of you so proud of re-writing the constitution to suit your religious beliefs. Nevermind the fact that you have caused hurt and pain to many many, tax paying, consenting adults. But hey what is important is that you allow farm animals more room and teenage girls to continue running around getting pregant with the comfort that they can abort their baby without telling their parents right? It is sad when farm animals have more rights than fellow citizens.

B. I do not have to leave California, I was born and raised here and no one, especially a narrow minded conservative is going to tell me to leave my home. I have an idea why dont you go and live in one of the more oonservative states? In case you missed it, this is not a conservative state, We did not vote for John McCain. But there is a few wonderful states that will let you sit on the porch with them strummin the banjo, and widdle the wood with you. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 6, 2008 8:34 PM:

" For many many months we sat on here and argued about our civil rights and we kept getting the same question "what civil right?" If you will read your Bill of Rights, you will read the 14th amendment, there is a clause in that amendment call the The Equality Clause, in that clause it says that all men are created equal. There is one right you have taken away, The other right is the 3 rd amendment. Freedom of Religion, summarized up it says that this country will not deem a religion for its citizens, but will not stop you from worshiping whom you choose. So lets see, you violated 2 of my rights.....do your homework "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 7, 2008 7:43 AM:

" To: jeff wrote on Nov 6, 2008 6:05 PM:
Well, young one you were half right. There was not just a raise in cost that slowed the use of opec oil there was a concerted effort by many of us to reduce driving in revolt to the higher price. Yes Jeff, those older retired baby boomers who have already set course had an effect on the oil and gas price. You can't be gouged if you refuse to play the game. We learned that from the 1970's, when opec had us by the you know what back then. Many seasoned citizens sat this one out and didn't fuel their gas guzzling r.v.'s or automobiles, we went back to buying gas $10 at a time and refused to fill opec's war chest. Without those R.V.'s on the road profits go way down, my friend. When it can cost $400 to fill a couple of 50 gallong tanks. Gee Jeff, if you were the self-imposed brain you think you are, people might listen. But I doubt it, you never quite get the hammer on the nail of the head. "

RobertD wrote on Nov 7, 2008 8:17 AM:

" Gee Deb, thanks for the insight. I just find it interesting that the opponents of Prop 8 like to compare their struggle with that of minority groups of the civil rights era, and rejoice in labeling those of us in favor of the proposition as racist, quasi-KKK members when in fact those minority groups overwhelmingly oppose gay marriage. Which once again brings up the question (I know I'm beating a dead horse and promise not to ask the question again) SPECIFICALLY, WHAT RIGHT IS BEING DENIED GAY AND LESBIANS? Unlike African-Americans who were denied the right to marry long ago (with no alternatives) the gay and lesbian community has an alternative--domestic partnerships. "

jeff wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:49 AM:

" Fred,

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with exactly. It seems to me that you feel I have said retired people don’t vote. I never said this, you might want to read over my post and see if you can comprehend English. You talk about the AARP, I don’t think you understand how this organization works. It’s kind of like franchising, not every AARP location votes the same. In fact many AARP locations backed Obama. Yeah look it up. "

jeff wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:49 AM:

" Fred,

Baby Boomers do not outnumber my generation. I don’t think you understand what Baby Boomer’s means. Let’s look at some simple math. Your parent’s generation had lots of children. These children are the Baby Boomer’s generation. If all of these people (The Baby Boomer’s) have children which generation would be bigger? It goes like this 1 x 2 = 2 x 2 = 4 x 4 = 16 see a trend? Every generation it gets bigger. Now currently there is a slow down on people having children so that might have an issue but you still can’t escape the fact that the average job pays twice as much as it did ten years ago and four times as much as ten years before that. Also the workforce grows with every generation (The amount of people paying into Social Security). Sorry, you can be scared if you want but Social Security is just fine. "

jeff wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:56 AM:

" Fred,

I almost forgot, your bit about oil consumption only echoes what I said. Thanks for backing me up Fred, I appreciate it! Not sure what you think you're arguing about though since your argument is in complete alignment with what I said. I guess this is more evidence that you will argue with people just for the sake of arguing. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:25 AM:

" RobertD wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:17 AM:

Once again you have intelligently stated your position and articulated the founding reasons for doing so. I applaud your ability to demonstrate the spoken word so well to achieve the correct emphasis on the difference between choice and rights. Melissa points to an amendment which says all men are created equal. Although in her gay relationship she may have taken the position of the male she does not otherwise qualify. The founding fathers specificly said every man not every man and woman have that right. So I will bow out now and await the deluge of hate mail from the LGBT network of fem faetals.
There is no winning this argument with them or convincing them that same sex, sex isn't accepted in our society today anymore than it was in 2000.
The numbers may have lowered a tad bit but the concensus is the same.

Kings" County voted 75% Yes on Proposition 8 don't forget that Melissa or shoud I just call you Mel? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:34 AM:

" to: Jeff, I quote your own news source you listed in your own blog.

"And "if the U.S. could then export that technology and service to China, it would likely put crude back below $20 per barrel," he said."

We could turn this entire mess around with offshore drilling at full capacity and taking Opec's largest customer the US and it's second largest China away from those oil magnates in the middle east.

Could you imagine the tears in the Middle East Crude region if instead of oil shooting to $200 a barrel it shot downward to $20 a barrel. "

SuziQ wrote on Nov 7, 2008 12:15 PM:

" If you had paid attention Jeffy you would have heard Republican (especially Newt) say if we would just say there would be offshore drilling, prices would drop. They were right and you were wrong... "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 7, 2008 12:38 PM:

" Mellissa, how dare you group me into your statements about Props 2, 4, and 8, I voted no on 2 and yes on Prop 4 & 8. I guess it was all of your liberal tree hugging friends who figured a calve out there on Grangeville needed more space and a pregnant teen didn't need to notify her family. I think that if you look at my posts, WDF and Alihandero, I would believe that they voted just like me. But take your side like jeff and others, they most likely voted the opposite of me. Again tell me how I am keeping you from marrying a man? That is what civil rights were about before. Blacks were not allowed be in places that whites were, not for their religious beliefs or sexual orientation, but for the color of their skin. "

Deb wrote on Nov 7, 2008 2:51 PM:

" RobertD: You're wrong - domestic partnerships do not accord gay people equal rights. They are not entitled to property or even children in the event of death - the relative of the deceased may legally make claim.

The State of CA's constitution provides equal protection.

Equal protection of the law =The idea that no individual or group may receive special privileges from, nor be unjustly discriminated by, the law.

man/woman combined group under married category is in fact a special privilege.

Now, again, this is my understanding and I agree with it, but many don't and that's ok.

I'd be happy IF all the benefits of a marriage were transferred to say, civil unions and/or domestic partnerships, but they aren't and until they are well, I will support the other group toward achieving their civil rights. "

Deb wrote on Nov 7, 2008 2:53 PM:

" RobertD: I'd also ask you what right is denied hetro couples with the allowance of gay marriage? "

jeff wrote on Nov 7, 2008 3:48 PM:

" Fred,

I guess you are unable to fully comprehend news articles you read. This is no surprise to me. Your point is hypothetical first of all and secondly the ‘Technology and services” being exported to China isn’t offshore drilling it’s alternative fuels.

SuziQ,

I wish the world operated that way but it doesn’t. Demand was the cause not the Congress passing offshore drilling. I guess you’re unaware but just because a Republican pundit says something doesn’t mean it’s true (And by the way I did hear that gem of an argument already, the sad part for you is that it’s nonsense). You still have no idea what you are talking about. "




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