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Gay-rights protests continue across state

By Thomas Watkins
Associated Press Writer

LOS ANGELES -- Backlash to the passage of an anti-gay-marriage law continued to sweep across California on Sunday, with hundreds of protesters rallying outside an Orange County megachurch whose popular pastor brought Barack Obama and John McCain together last summer for a "faith forum."

In Sacramento, about 2,500 protesters gathered on the steps of the state Capitol to vent their opposition to the same-sex marriage ban. In Oakland, a large anti-Proposition 8 protest at the city's Mormon Temple led the California Highway Patrol to close two nearby highway ramps to ensure pedestrian safety.

In Pasadena, the pastor of the 4,000-member All Saints Church spoke out against Proposition 8, calling the religious community's support of it "embarrassing."

In Orange County, police officials and protest organizers estimated that about 250 to 300 gay-rights advocates fanned out along sidewalks leading to Saddleback Church in Lake Forest.

The protesters were angered by the megachurch's support of Proposition 8, a constitutional amendment approved by voters Tuesday that bans same-sex marriages and overturns the state Supreme Court decision in May legalizing such unions.

Human Rights Campaign volunteer Ed Todeschini accused the church of helping propagate what he called misinformation about the Supreme Court ruling, including that gay marriage would have to be taught to kindergartners.

A message for comment left at the church's main office, which was closed Sunday, was not immediately returned.

"They told such obvious lies, they used their lies to deceive the public," Todeschini said of the church, which gained national attention in August when its pastor, Rick Warren, brought Obama and McCain together to discuss their religious faith. The two candidates embraced during what was otherwise an often-contentious presidential campaign.

Todeschini said Sunday's rally was peaceful, with demonstrators waving placards with slogans including "Equality for all" and "Shame on you."

In Oakland, where the highway patrol rerouted traffic, protest organizers said they hoped to tone down the anger that has characterized some previous protests.

"Our intent is not to disturb churchgoers," organizer Tim DeBenedictis said in a statement. "Our goal is to mend fences and build bridges so that all Californians can achieve marriage equality under the law."

A spokesman for the Oakland temple said Mormons were being unfairly singled out, noting that the ban was backed by a variety of religious groups.

Rallies have been taking place since Proposition 8's passage with 52 percent of the vote.

Not all churches favor Proposition 8. In Pasadena, the All Saints Church announced that while it could legally no longer marry same-sex couples, it would continue blessings of gay civil unions.

"It's very unfortunate and embarrassing that the (Christian religion) is in large part responsible for this act of bigotry," the Rev. Ed Bacon told The Associated Press following his Sunday sermon.

Bacon heads the 4,000-member All Saints Church.

The protest at the state Capitol was boisterous but peaceful as speakers led the crowd in noisy anti-Proposition 8 chants. Protesters waved rainbow flags and No on 8 signs as police watched from the sidelines.

Jovannah Radtke of Sacramento told The Sacramento Bee on Sunday that same-sex marriage supporters are more energized now than in the days leading up to the election.

"There is a lot more enthusiasm and passion," she said.

Speaking on CNN's "Late Edition" Sunday, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger expressed disappointment at Proposition 8's passage.

"It is unfortunate," Schwarzenegger told CNN correspondent John King. "But it is not the end because I think this will go back into the courts. ... It's the same as in the 1948 case when blacks and whites were not allowed to marry, this falls into the same category."

Associated Press Writer Marcus Wohlsen in San Francisco contributed to this report.

(Nov. 10, 2008)

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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

Pete wrote on Nov 10, 2008 4:18 PM:

" This is unbelievable! I would have never voted the way I did if I had known these people were going to act like this after losing! Like a bunch of children that didn't get their way and throwing a tantrum. They don't seem to realize they only have one vote and if didn't go their way try again, but don't act like trash in the streets. "

Mrs.D wrote on Nov 10, 2008 5:35 PM:

" Hey, Pete, how would you act if Prop 8 failed? You'd be ranting and raving and taking to the street in an angry fashion, too. Think first, dude. "

Pete wrote on Nov 10, 2008 7:06 PM:

" Hey Mrs Dearie, I voted No on 8. Just said I'll not vote that way again because of this ridiculous display! "

billy buck wrote on Nov 10, 2008 7:17 PM:

" If voting yes was the christian thing to then I am embarresed to be a christian "

Deb wrote on Nov 10, 2008 7:40 PM:

" It's about civil rights - this too will be in the history books. Protests are normal especially when it comes to human rights. "

redo'riley wrote on Nov 11, 2008 7:56 AM:

" So what's the big deal with this? We spent how many months listening to the Prop 8 supporters ranting and raving and protesting those "activist" judges who decided to allow s/s marriage? How soon we forget. Sore losers? I think not. "

B. wrote on Nov 11, 2008 12:00 PM:

" Your civil rights have not been violated, you have every right to marry as anyone else. A man can marry a woman, and a woman can marry a man.
Once again you no on 8 people want something that doesn`t exist. Very obvious you don`t believe in democrocy or you wouldn`t be behaving like children. The people voted, that`s it. "

sc281 wrote on Nov 11, 2008 1:16 PM:

" Divorce is a greater threat to the SACTITY of marriage.
My marriage isnt affected by homosexual marriage.
If Im correct the constitution does protect my right to privacy. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 11, 2008 3:45 PM:

" I say lock up the protestors and throw away the key, make the charge a felon charge and make them ineligible to vote. "

nevadaguy wrote on Nov 11, 2008 8:21 PM:

" I stand in solidarity with these protesters... the far reich wing (so called) christians lied and lied about prop 8! I'm not surprised my former county I lived in overwhelmingly voted for prop 8, Kings County is not exactly the most enlightened or educated part of the state. Most likely prop 8 will be overturned, Everyone deserves to be treated equally even gay folk! "

Deb wrote on Nov 11, 2008 8:41 PM:

" WD - you mean to say, that you are opposing the Constitutional rights to each and every American? Or are you simply bloviating? "

Deb wrote on Nov 11, 2008 8:42 PM:

" B. No, you're wrong, that's not it. Savor the moment. "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Nov 11, 2008 10:58 PM:

" Billy Buck, if there is an instance where you are embarrassed to be a Christian, then you are NOT a Christian. You might want to examine yourslef to see if you are in the faith.
"But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. " - Jesus "

kimberley wrote on Nov 12, 2008 4:31 AM:

" we have the right to be who we are.Just like you do. would you tell your kids that they could not get married to the person they fell in love with it they where the same sex?? I know i have two out of the three kids i have and two of them are bi and i do not care who they are with or marry as long as they love that person and they are good to them.they where dorn here and have all the rights as every one. that is all we want and you know we are every where so why are you trying to hide us. like some of you all said driving by go back in the closet well why should we. I love being who i am and know one should take that away from me or my kids. I go to work i pay taxs just like every one so i love not the same as u it is all love and love is love. if you seen me on the street would you say any thing ya some of you would you should all stop with the hate!!!! "

Pete wrote on Nov 12, 2008 7:49 AM:

" If the protestors were smart, and that's a BIG if, they would go back to the drawing board and try again down the road. There are alot of men and woman that live together without being married and gays can do the same. No one can say it hasn't got better for gays in this country. Now quit acting like a bunch of spoiled brats and quit the protests with the property damage! "

Cammy wrote on Nov 12, 2008 1:50 PM:

" Pete,
Pete wrote on Nov 12, 2008 9:49 AM:

" If the protestors were smart, and that's a BIG if, they would go back to the drawing board and try again down the road. There are alot of men and woman that live together without being married and gays can do the same. No one can say it hasn't got better for gays in this country. Now quit acting like a bunch of spoiled brats and quit the protests with the property damage! "
If the people who voted yes to prop 8 would be smart, and thats a BIG if, they would stop living in the 1800's and stop using their religious beliefs to support prop 8. I thought christians were supposed to love ALL people, not SOME? Yet that is exactly what you and everyone else is doing. Sounds to me like your the one acting like a spoiled brat throwing your religious beliefs in our face. You obviously have no clue what love is love is truely about. Do you not understand that the people who support prop 8 are discriminating our civil rights? You did so by eliminating our fundalmental right to marry same-sex. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 12, 2008 2:28 PM:

" Pete, The 14th Amendment is a "Equal Protection Clause" Defines a set of guarantees for United States citizenship; prohibits states from abridging citizens' privileges or immunities and rights to due process and the equal protection of the law. It is about how ALL men are created EQUAL. In which you all opposed to it so therefore you are violating my right and thats discriminating.The 1st Amendment is about "Freedom of Religion"- addresses the rights of freedom of religion (prohibiting Congressional establishment of a religion over another religion through Law and protecting the right to free exercise of religion), freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of petition, This means you CANNOT use your RELIGION on me and others to take away our civil rights. Since you are doing so, you are also violating yet another right of mine which makes you discriminating. What you are doing and saying is wrong! Do your homework! The men and women who choose to live together but not marry, at least they have a option TO MARRY AS WHERE US GAYS DO NOT! GET THE FACTS RIGHT PETE! SHAME ON YOU!!! "

Deb wrote on Nov 12, 2008 3:07 PM:

" Pete - you point out all the ways the Gay community can achieve all the "benefits" of being married, so you see, you in fact point out that they as humans in the state of CA do not have the same rights. They can make a legal agreement - why should they? Why should they have to pay lawyers and not the typical couple? They should have all the umbrella of rights be they state or federal that normal married couples do. Period. And, they shouldn't have to go pay an attorney for years to ensure all their rights are covered.

I'll ignore you're remark about stupid protestors. "

Deb wrote on Nov 12, 2008 3:16 PM:

" B. Do you not know what a civil right is?
From WD's fav wiki: Civil and political rights are a class of rights ensuring things such as the protection of peoples' physical integrity; procedural fairness in law; protection from discrimination based on gender, religion, race, sexual orientation, etc; individual freedom of belief, speech, association, and the press; and political participation.

A gay woman can marry a man, but she may not marry the person (one that can legally enter a binding contract) of her choice.

That, B. is the description of being denied a civil right. "

MelMAOB wrote on Nov 12, 2008 3:56 PM:

" Pete, it is not a matter of whether we are smart or not...because that question can be posed on every person living in America. Now...as for that drawing board, I agree. This election was closer than our last. It is proof that society has shifted. It will shift more, give it time. I expect our next attempt will pass. But I want a marriage that is accepted by my society and not forced into society. I deserve that. "

Dandre wrote on Nov 12, 2008 3:58 PM:

" Get ready, folks.because, per the Constitution, the Supreme Court is gping to DO IT'S JOB and declare this law UN-CONSTITUTIONAL.
This is about government issuing a LICENSE. It cannot DISCRIMINATE in the issuing of that license.
All of your hyperbole and homophobic rants are not going to change the principle of this argument which has NOTHING to do with being gay or marriage
The next time the anti-love crowd musters up another 'inititive', that 60/40 margin that turned into a 52/48 margin in a few years (even with all the lies) will keep right on 'evolving' into a permanent majority that in twenty years will ridicule the intolerance.
History proves it.....everytime.....Praise Jesus and God Bless MY Unites States of America and All of Her Freedoms......YOURS doesn't measure up "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 12, 2008 5:18 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Nov 12, 2008 5:16 PM:

Actually Deb I think this is what you really meant also from wiki:

Choice consists of the mental process of thinking involved with the process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them for action. Some simple examples include deciding whether to get up in the morning or go back to sleep, or selecting a given route for a journey. More complex examples (often decisions that affect what a person thinks or their core beliefs) include choosing a lifestyle, religious affiliation, or political position.

Most people regard having choices as a good thing, though a severely limited or artificially restricted choice can lead to discomfort with choosing and possibly, an unsatisfactory outcome. In contrast, unlimited choice may lead to confusion, regret of the alternatives not taken, and indifference in an unstructured existence; and the illusion that choosing an object or a course leads necessarily to control of that object or course can cause psychological problems. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 12, 2008 5:28 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Nov 11, 2008 10:41 PM:

" WD - you mean to say, that you are opposing the Constitutional rights to each and every American? Or are you simply bloviating? "

Exactly what rights are those Deb, they aren't peacefully assembling when they hand cuff theirselves to prevent entry into a public building. That is not a guaranteed right and that is exactly what they did in Fresno, yesterday.

They have stopped and prevented and threatened mormon families in Southern California. My question is if the black vote put this over like they say it did, why aren't they demonstrating in Watts, blocking those folks from Sunday Services? Could it be they know they would get what they deserve? A Butt Kicking, for disturbing and disrupting a Church Service.

I don't see much difference from disrupting a service to burning the church down, they both accomplish the same vulgar display of behavior. You folks are only proving to the voting public and many who voted in your favor that passage of Proposition 8 was warranted. The Third Attempt is doomed sure, by this behavior. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 12, 2008 5:42 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Nov 11, 2008 10:41 PM:

If Gray Davis could be recalled why couldn't Arnold be eligible for the same demise.

He's playing with fire and he just might get burned right out of his office.

People didn't mind paying the high DMV charges but they dislike the Justices decision and Arnold's support ot if even more.

O.k. folks get your recall petitions ready.

He's already not a popular Govenor and people were content to let him serve out his term.

But if this is the lack of support he is going to give the voters then the voters may have no other choice.

We slapped his hands once, don't think it can't happen again.

Remember how he was gonna bring the Congress to it's knees with his stupid legislature and got shot down at the polls, by the voters of this great state.

I've said it before , the next political office he will hold will be in a movie. Because he isn't a cast member in Republican Politics any longer, after this mistake. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 12, 2008 5:47 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Nov 11, 2008 10:41 PM:

The next great govenor of this great state will probably be none other than "Alan Autry", he's already got most of the San Joaquin Valley Vote. Well I'd say at least 75% of the Kings County Vote for sure.

Yes mam the Mayor who has done more for the advancement of Fresno than any other Mayor in history. While also maintaining his popularity with the voting public as well. The majority of us anyway.

Jerry Brown is doomed he was finished when he left the Govenorship, just nobody has told him yet. Another popularity seeker instead of a Govenor. His biggest moment was his well publicized trip abroad with a famous female singer. I protect her name because I am sure she wants nothing to do with him today. Now that he is out of the closet. "

Pete wrote on Nov 13, 2008 9:20 AM:

" Let me see if "you people" can understand this: I'm not talking about the issue, I'm saying it doesn't help acting like the protesters are acting (and I didn't say they were stupid). If you condone these actions then maybe you were just raised that way, but I think it's wrong (especially the ones getting paid to do it). "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 13, 2008 1:01 PM:

" Deb, just to show you how wrong your example is, I have paraphrased it a bit to show you the Pandora's box is that you wish to open

"A gay woman can marry a man, but she may not marry the SIBLING(one that can legally enter a binding contract) of her choice.

That, B. is the description of being denied a civil right. "

Deb wrote on Nov 13, 2008 3:29 PM:

" WD - qualify yourself - do you mean "the" to be all? do you mean "the" illegal ones? The article above for the most part reflected no violence to have occurred. Yet in your last post you begin by referring to the kids who handcuffed themselves to the door. Again, you try to mix apples with oranges but, that's typical of your thought process.

Here you wrote:

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 11, 2008 5:45 PM:
" I say lock up the protesters and throw away the key, make the charge a felon charge and make them ineligible to vote. "

Again - just which protesters are you referring to.

IF there's something illegal happening, then yes, those should be punished. Period. But to put all protesters in the same category, well, then that's simply your blind view. YES, WD, there is a difference. "

Proud Dad wrote on Nov 13, 2008 3:41 PM:

" The majority of the voters have voted against gay marriage for the 2nd time. Voters/parents are concerned homosexuality will be taught at public schools against their wishes. That is my RIGHT to be concerned. Let’s remove that concern by creating a provision in the education code that parent(s) will be notified before any teaching takes place in regards to relationships and sex between consenting adults. Let the parent(s) decide if the teacher is up to the task to teach the subject on a neutral basis. "

Deb wrote on Nov 13, 2008 4:44 PM:

" NHG- ok... I'll bite - siblings currently are unable to get married under existing laws. So, they'd have to get those existing laws changed in order to fall under the law properly. Those would be the incest laws and are within the penal code. For gay marriage to occur, there's no other obstruction until prop 8. "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Nov 13, 2008 9:38 PM:

" They're sending white powder to Mormon temples as fake anthrax! First they ignore the laws of our country, intimidating people trying to practice their faith by lining up outside houses of worship. NOW THEY ARE ENGAGING IN ACTS OF TERRORISM AGAINST AMERICANS! Live and let live, my eye! You wanna make war on countrymen? Well, Bring It On! Try that mess in Kings County, you cowards! "

buffalobillz wrote on Nov 13, 2008 11:09 PM:

" sure is funny to sit back and watch those who support gay rights cry and moan about that failing of prop 8. according to them. why? it was voted on and you still will not accept that the majority have spoken and in this country, democracy, though flawed,has spoken. you wanted it to be voted on and you got that, again, and you lost...again! i dont care what you do behind closed doors, i dont want to see it on public. even heterosexual acts in public can and should at times be restrained, if gone overboard. but what you all are doing is not natural. its contrary to the way we were created. Male and female HE created them. We are made in HIS image. Are you saying that GOD has homosexual tendencies? i dont think so! if your spiritual advisor actually reads the Bible, good book etc, then they would KNOW what it REALLY says about homosexuality. doesn't matter about human rights...its contrary to nature and its disgusting. "

Proud Dad wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:48 AM:

" In regards to the incest laws, the argument is going to be pretty simple when homosexuals are allowed to get married. All they would have to state is that they are in love, they are consenting adults and they plan to use IVF just like the homosexuals.
The government has found itself in a position, where it is going to have find a balance between the social, moral and civil rights issues. "

chuck21 wrote on Nov 14, 2008 10:02 AM:

" First of all this not in the same category as civil rights. Secondly, to nevada guy, sure kings county may not be the most educated area in the world, but an idiot is an idiot. You can be an average idiot or an educated one. Liberal colleges teach liberal views. So far I have not seen too much good come out of the educated idiot here lately. To the no on 8 supporters, if this was a true civil rights issue, why would the majority of blacks vote yes on prop 8. Being gay is not the same as being born a certain race. Being black for example is not a choice or illness or whatever you wanna call it. I have seen posters from no on 8 protesters saying seperate water fountains or who's next. Those messages seem pretty deceiving. If people were tolerant of everybodys choices this world would be a much worse place then it is. "

jeff wrote on Nov 14, 2008 12:22 PM:

" buffalobillz,

You stated "We are made in HIS image". Of course you meant God's image and that God is a man. What proof do you have of any of this? Can you prove that God exists? As far as I am concerned I was not created in "God's" image because rational, logical thinking tells me that the god you chose to believe in is a myth. Your religious views do not matter. America was not founded on Christian law. You can hate homosexuals as much as you want to, no one is taking your belief away from you. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 14, 2008 12:34 PM:

" To Deb, first let me start with stating that I think that incest is wrong, just like homosexuality. But I am trying to make a statement, those for homosexual marriage are always quoting LOVE as the reason. Until recently sodomy was a crime that prevented even thinking about allowing homosexual marriage, who of those that are always against the Bible trying to overthrow the incest laws, aren't they just as discremantory as the sodomy laws? Aren't both also based upon Biblical beliefs? Aren't you always for seperating religion and state? So why not legalize incest, pedophilia, and bigomy? They are after all only Biblical laws? You might try to challenge me on the pedophile one, but again at what age are you an adult, our arbitrary rule of 21, other places on this planet of ours it is under 18. Some places believe that as soon as a female menstrates she is legal for marriage. Again don't jump and say these are my fantasies, for I have posted before that I think people shouldn't marry until after they are 24 or older. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 14, 2008 12:39 PM:

" To Deb, continued. Of course 24 is an arbitrary number, some people do actually find an marry their lifelong partner at a younger age, but facts are facts, the majority of us don't and sometimes confuse lust for love, our national divorce rate proves it. And don't jump on that band wagon either, homosexual marriages will not be the salvation to drop that number down. Some that have been in long term relations might last longer, but again the younger ones may be confused or in "lust" and who is to say that their numbers won't match those of the heterosexual marriages. Ask for laws that provide the same benefits that I get in regards to my spouse, but try to be tolerant of all and understand that wanting to have it called marriage is an affront to all that believe marriage to be between a Man and a Woman, and our belief is covered by our religions and the Constitution which gives us religious freedom, but does not provide any verbage for the right to gay marriage. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 14, 2008 5:44 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Nov 13, 2008 5:29 PM:

You do not think it unlawful for anyone to handcuff theirselves and prevent citizens from entering the City Hall in Fresno? That isn't consider violent, gee, I wonder if the cops would have stepped up and started cutting the handcuffs off with hack saws if you would have considered that a violent act? What if a fire erupted in that building at the same time and the public couldn't get out and the fire department couldn't get in?
Come Deb you aren't that ignorant are you?
A person can be arrested for yelling fire in a theatre and yet gays can handcuff themselves in a line blocking entrance to City Hall? Come on Deb I know your brains are lonely but rub both of them together and think a minute. This should be a felony violation and all those protestors should have been arrested and had their voting rights taken away. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 14, 2008 7:41 PM:

" Proud Dad, that already exsists in the educational code. That is a law here in the state of California. Before I was able to take sex ed my parents had to give permission. That is the problem with the Yes on 8 campaign, they stirred up everyones "concern" by stating an incident that happened in Mass. This is California and there are laws that protect parents rights to choose their childrens education. I believe that it is unfortunate that Mass does not have those same laws as I definitly want the choice in if my children take place in sex ed, since I believe that is something that honestly should be taught at home. But we live in California and California recongnizes that fact. The campaign for Yes on 8 played on hope that the citizens of California did not know, and hoped they would not do their own homework to find out that what happened in Mass can not happen here. "

Deb wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:28 PM:

" NHG – First, thanks for your well thought out response. I have to say first and foremost, we are a progressive nation with regard to laws, rights and freedoms. Which tells me, both historically and looking forward that what may be illegal today or through generations may not be the case in the future This too is recognized in the Declaration of Independence which guarantees us the “… life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The Constitutional framers recognized that the laws of the country were going to be progressive and evident in this statement – “ …to form a more perfect union”. Which gives rise to the following – in CA, since this is where we are today with regard to prop 8.
In response to some of your statements:
The laws, which relate to sodomy are very much based upon religion and within the state of CA has a very interesting history. In 1850 a law was created which outlawed sodomy and in 1974 it was changed and the result was the non-criminalization of consensual same-sex, sex. Summarized here: http://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/sensibilities/california.htm (continued) "

Dandre wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:28 PM:

" Hey, NHG, WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THESE PEOPLE'S LIVES AND THEIR BEDROOMS!
Your PERSONAL ambiguity with what the Bible condones and doesn't condone doesn't fare well with your Biblical arguments.
And phred 'the victim' is back .....civil-unrest happens when civilrights are at stake, churches that inject themselves into politics aren't immune and should have their 'tax exemption' reviewed "

Deb wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:29 PM:

" NHG – Continued While our current laws with regard to incest are also based in the US in a religious context. However, in some societies, such as that of Ancient Egypt, brother–sister, father–daughter, and mother–son relations were practiced among royalty. In addition, the Balinese and some Inuit tribes have altogether different beliefs about what constitutes illegal and immoral incest. Incest is considered highly immoral and historically, it even criminalized a relationship between the a man and his deceased wife’s sister. Laws have relaxed in the US and CA since then. I believe it’s 4th generation and 1st cousins now.

With that said, change could come with regard to this, sooner than later as there exists in Germany a relationship of consensual adult sibling incest. They have 4 children. It is becoming viewed as a victimless crime when assumed between 2 consenting adults in other parts of the world.

Pedophilia as described here: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/HTML/facts_molestation.html “Pedophilia usually refers to an adult psychological disorder characterized by a preference for prepubescent children as sexual partners; this preference may or may not be acted upon. (continued) "

Deb wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:31 PM:

" NHG – Continued The term hebephilia is sometimes used to describe adult sexual attractions to adolescents or children who have reached puberty.”

This brings again, the point of age of consent – yes, the world has many varying agees of consent and it may or may not change in the future, but in creating laws, we must deal with the realities of today. In CA it’s 18 right now. I think 24 is a good age too. :)

So, while, allowing marriage between gays, may or may not in the future bring forth the issue of incest, bigamy/polygamy (which does exist, yet still criminalized), in California there must be a “suspect group” upon which the Equal Protection Clause would then fall under. I seriously doubt that bigamists, polygamists, or those who practice incestuous relationships could currently or even in the near future (124 years for sodomy) get the criminal laws overturned and then qualify as a suspect group under Equal Protection in CA. Not in the near or even far future, but that’s not to say it won’t happen. I agree with you (save for pedophilia). (continued) "

Deb wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:32 PM:

" NHG – Continued Given that, I feel that yes, the people (voters) should be the ones who enact law unless what they are enacting is illegal and I feel that in this case the voters through prop 22, discriminated against the very people (gay citizens of CA) they voted to uphold rights for, through the enacting of the Equal Protection Amendment added to the CA Constitution. The only time I feel that the judicial arm of the government should intervene is in instances where legal interpretations are necessary when the “people” are enacting something contradictory to the CA Constitution.

I understand the desire to hold close the biblical/religious representation of marriage and what it stands for in terms of one’s beliefs, but I don’t understand what allowing that “word/right” to be applied to others takes away from ones belief system. The only thing that I can surmise is that allowing gays to adopt the word marriage in some way tarnishes the meaning. (The End) "

Deb wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:41 PM:

" WD - Again, your comments are ignorant - you made a generalized statement - "they should all ... " in relation to the article above. I called you on it and then you begin talking about Fresno activities. I responded that I disagreed to violent protesters, period.

Again - Are we supposed to be bright enough to read your mind? If you're going to generalize, then stay on topic in relation to the article. I'm not stupid and i don't believe you are either, but don't waste your time trying to create things I said, when it's all right there in black and white.

Try re-reading my responses to yours in chronological order, it will make sense. "

Proud Dad wrote on Nov 14, 2008 11:03 PM:

" Melissa...To my knowledge there isn't anything keeping them from teaching about the relationships (not the bird and bee part) hence the field trip to the same sex wedding that a teacher participated in San Francisco. This issue is a 2 way street, I don't mind seeing homosexuals obtaining the right to get married or at least obtain civil unions that match the rights of heterosexual marriage. But I do not agree with what goes on behind the scenes and I do not want my children obtaining that kind of information from public schools until they are much older.
I think it is difficult for people to grasp the concept of homosexuality, maybe you can shed some light on it. I saw a quote, which stated that they have never seen a person of one race switch to another. We have all seen “gay” people that decided to play for the other team, a prime example is Anne Heche and Ellen DeGeneres. Anne Heche broke up with Ellen and married a male, I believe they are still married to this day. No wonder people get confused and wonder if it is a behavioral or mental issue. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 15, 2008 1:24 AM:

" Proud Dad, Actually teachers are not supposed to discuss marriage or relationships in any form in a classroom. There are many different kinds of families represented in classrooms today and any discussion of relationships and marriage can be a touchy one since there are laws stated parents have the right to approve any subject matter of that nature. This goes for children being raised by aunts, uncles, grandparents, single parents as well as heterosexual couples or homosexual couples. That is why it is a wonderful thing our state leaves those subjects for the parents to decide when and where their children learn about it. Such was the case in San Francisco, what most do not disclose is that the teacher sent permission slips home and obtained the parents permission before taking those children to the wedding. Those childrens parents knew where they were and what type of event they were at, there were two children from that class that did not attend as their parents did not agree with their children going. That is their parents right in this state, It is also again one I agree with. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 15, 2008 1:36 AM:

" Proud Dad cont As for shedding some light, I will do my best though I can not speak for everyone. I tried very hard for a long time to be heterosexual, I come from a very religious family, I was born and raised in church and all I wanted to do was make my family proud, and be what they wanted me to be. I knew by the age of 12 that I did not want the same things my family wanted for me but was so afraid of what would happen to me if I came out that I lived my life the way my family told me was "right". Once I got older I realized that I was not going to be truly happy untill I acknowledged who I was and stopped hiding my feelings. I fell in love with my current partner and decided I no longer wanted to keep that part of my life secret. We have been together now for two and half years and I have never been happier. I know that this is the case with many gays and lesbians who try very hard to be straight. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 15, 2008 1:43 AM:

" Proud Dad cont... In many cases as well, homosexuals will continue to live their life "straight" and keep themselves in the closet because that is how they feel comfortable. To the public eye, while they may never marry, they are straight, but have boyfriends or girlfriends in secret. In the case of Ann Heche and Ellen DeGeneres, there are also a group of people who are bisexual, who only see the person not the gender. They love based on the heart not the anatomy, and it is that love that drives their attractions. There are also bisexuals who are sexually attracted to both sexes but prefer the emotional relationship of one sex over the other. In any of the cases I have listed, these people were born the way they were, I do not know anyone who would choose to be outcasted, discriminated against, treated as second class citizens or disappoint their families. This is just how we were made and we just want to be treated like any other human being, citizen in this state and even in this country. If I can dispell any myth it is one that we are mentally ill... "

Melissa wrote on Nov 15, 2008 2:08 AM:

" Proud Dad cont... I am not in any way mentally ill, just the contrary, I am a strong individual, I watch my nephews everyday, I take care of my terminally ill mother, I go to school where I am majoring in Sociology and I am a fulltime house wife to my partner. I have a clean bill of health mentally and physically. Homosexuality or Bisexuality are not mental illnesses, are there some who are mentally ill? I am sure there are just as there are Heterosexuals who are mentally ill, but the mental illness is not their sexual orientation. Yes I too read that blog in reference to changing skin color, To me it is not a question of changing our sexuality, it is a matter of hiding it. I hope I have shed some light for you, as I said I can not speak for all. "

Alihandero wrote on Nov 15, 2008 3:07 AM:

" Well now, "Deb" bloviates on and on and she repeatedly deems herself somehow better than WatchDog?

And Scott Tucker calls ME a hypocrite?

She says "This is California and there are laws that protect parents rights to choose their children's education."

"Parents rights?" What about the child's rights?

Since homosexuals cannot reproduce with the object of their love and commitment, in order to obtain a child, they purloin via adoption or by 3rd party insemination and then indoctrinate that child into the homosexual lifestyle.

Who gives that child a choice, "Deb?"

What about the civil rights of that adopted or created/donated child?

Did the ovum or sperm each have the ‘gay gene' to make that child even want to be gay?

Or is the homosexual lifestyle of unnatural sex, love and commitment (not to mention decoration) being foisted upon that innocent, unbiased child unfairly, without the child's consent, thus bringing up the concept of unfair parenting, child abuse, and violation of the child's civil rights?

Is this not a form of slavery of innocent children, "Deb?"

Yeah, I know what you will say...its a stretch, but not at all untrue. "

Big Picture wrote on Nov 15, 2008 10:18 AM:

" Watch dog said, "This should be a felony violation and all those protestors should have been arrested and had their voting rights taken away."
That is perhaps the scariest thing I have read from you yet. Aren't you a veteran? What did you serve for? I hope it was to defend true freedom and not freedom as decided by majority vote. That would be contrary to what this country stands for. Unfortunately we do not truly have a separation of church and state which leads to this nonsense. I am also of the opinion that this is a mute argument. The fact that a group of peoples rites was on a ballot is ludicrous. This will be overturned and all of you religious bigots and moral superiority types will have to find some other cause. It's this type of thinking that is a cancer to the republican party. If the party is not overhauled it will eventually be rendered obsolete by independents (like my self) or a third party, if it isn't all ready. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 15, 2008 1:33 PM:

" TO:Big Picture wrote on Nov 15, 2008 12:18 PM:

O.K. let me get this straight, you feel that people who lock theirselves in a human chain with handcuffs and disrupt people from conducting their business at a City Hall. Is appropriate behavior by protestestors and should be ingnored? I am not talking about protestors who gather peaceably, I am talking about protestors who make it impossible for citizens, police and firemen to have access to a public building in the event of an emergency. As stated by me previously it is illegal to shout fire in a crowded theatre and that in no way blocks exits or entrances.

So what should we do allow them to shut down businesses, keep people from worship and attending their temple as they are doing to Mormons in Southern California. Religion is a guaranteed right in the United States Constitution, same sex marriage is no longer allowed by any law or Justice decision. That decision has been over thrown and replaced by a State Constitutional Amendment in this state and voted down in two other states. I fought for everyone's rights. Continued "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 15, 2008 1:38 PM:

" TO:Big Picture wrote on Nov 15, 2008 12:18 PM:

Continued if it were blacks handcuffing theirselves together in front of the City Hall do you think they would get away with it? If it were Mormon's demonstrating in front of church's performing gay marriages that the Mormon's would be left to protest? The gays have already demonstrated they are seeking vengeance against those that took a public stand and voted yes on Proposition 8. That is against the law if the election had not occured already they could be charged with voter tampering. Which is a federal crime much more serious than the felony I say they should be charged. They are through intimidation now trying to also scare people into voting for them if there is a third vote and all they are doing is making those who voted for them before look at why they did. Now they will become voters in the Yes on 8 bank and they lose by even a larger margin. How many times does the electorate have to speak to get this issue passed into law as it has been advocated? (Continued) "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 15, 2008 1:44 PM:

" TO:Big Picture wrote on Nov 15, 2008 12:18 PM:

Continued I did fight for freedoms but I did not fight for choices, choices are man-made decisions by individuals. Rights were a conglomerate of men who sat down and thought through the development of a country and it's struggles and sat about to make laws and rights that should apply.

When you sign up for a driver's license you must meet certain qualifications, if they are not met no license is issued. If you choose to speed the policeman has the right and a duty to give you a ticket. If you don't wear a seat belt, it's an additional ticket, because that is the law and the officer is duty bound to enforce the law.

This new amendment is the law and should be enforced with the same vigor as any other law on the books. Simply stated no matter how Jerry Brown phrases it: marriage is between a man and a woman. That little black circle at the end is a PERIOD MEANING END OF DISCUSSION.

Continue this behavior and the military will be involved in this issue. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 15, 2008 1:54 PM:

" TO:Big Picture wrote on Nov 15, 2008 12:18 PM:
The oath of a service member contains the statement protect and defend this country from it's enemies both foreign and domestic.

"Domestic: of, relating to, or originating within a country and especially one's own country." meriam webster

So the govenator can call up the National Guard to disperse these gatherings when they get to a point he deems it necessary. Do you actually think that violence isn't going to take place at one of these events eventually? Regardless of who starts it, once it starts is will be an all out war, people will be hurt and God forbid maybe even killed. Is this worth this to the GLBT community, do you really want to be forced back into your closets? Because if this erupts into an all out battle that will be your only sanctuary. The authorities are not going to be forced to kill people over this issue. They will start arresting, charging and sentencing people along with fining them and hitting them in their pocket books. Count on it! You saw it in the riots! "

Melissa wrote on Nov 15, 2008 9:29 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, so let me understand this, if there are riots, it will be the LGBT communities fault for using their freedom of speach and protesting the loss of our rights? Hmmm interesting. So if a straight individual decides they are mad that we are protesting and takes it upon themselves to start a violent rage it will be on us cause we are protesting? We will be forced back into our closets because that will be our only sanctuary? Hmmm sounds to me like you are saying the straight community is going to take it upon themselves to infringe upon yet ANOTHER one of our rights.

As for the military I have one question for you, what about those who are gay and lesbian who fought for everyones freedoms and RIGHTS. Here is a clue for you, if you fought for freedom you fought for the rights that being in a free country entitiles its citizens to have. My girlfriend was there as a USMC in Washington DC pulling people out of the pentagon after the plane went thru it, she defended this country and how do its citizens repay her? By taking her rights awayThanks "

misty wrote on Nov 15, 2008 11:03 PM:

" Well i live in the state of Texas .
I wish the people would just let us GAY PEOPLE
alone ok, the way i see it , for all the ones that are with there lovers for years and years and can't get marriage why not? will the world come to an end? i think not, every one is in title to be love no matter the color or gender, now the ones that was for the prop 8 ok here is a guestion what would you do if one day your kids or grandkids or other family members come to you and tell you there GAY would it be push to the side and sayng no your just going thru a stage, or will you dis own that person? for many and years we have been fighting for our rights. and have'nt gotten on where all because who we are, because what is weird you pass me in the store you would nevr know until the words AM GAY hits the air, why yall act like we have a deadly disease, GOD LOVES ALL NOT JUST STRIGHTS "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 8:52 AM:

" To: Melissa wrote on Nov 15, 2008 11:29 PM:

What I am saying is this will exculate to violence because the LGBTQ community is not going to accept their defeat in this legal action. So therefore it will become necessary for the National Guard to be called up at some point if riots begin, regardless of who starts them. Secondly any LGBTQ's who are serving in the National Guard will be required to stop the rioting. That is the part of the oath that states foreign or domestic, as part of their oath whoever is rioting becomes an enemy of the state. So yes they will be required to either drop their weapons and join you or stop the violence. That will be the only two choices they can make. If they join you, they could be charged with disertion in the face of a battle and prosecuted for it, up to and including execution. If you doubt that, read the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). So either way, the rioting will be stopped, regardless of who riots, you don't get a free pass cause you are LGBTQ's. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 8:52 AM:

" To: Melissa wrote on Nov 15, 2008 11:29 PM:

What I am saying is this will esculate to violence because the LGBTQ community is not going to accept their defeat in this legal action. So therefore it will become necessary for the National Guard to be called up at some point if riots begin, regardless of who starts them. Secondly any LGBTQ's who are serving in the National Guard will be required to stop the rioting. That is the part of the oath that states foreign or domestic, as part of their oath whoever is rioting becomes an enemy of the state. So yes they will be required to either drop their weapons and join you or stop the violence. That will be the only two choices they can make. If they join you, they could be charged with disertion in the face of a battle and prosecuted for it, up to and including execution. If you doubt that, read the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). So either way, the rioting will be stopped, regardless of who riots, you don't get a free pass cause you are LGBTQ's. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 9:03 AM:

" To: misty wrote on Nov 16, 2008 1:03 AM:

I can't believe that you are complaining about California, when you live in a state where legally anyone can carry a concealed weapon.
Where driving with an open container of alcohol is permitted. Where some of the most prejudiced red knecks in the land reside. Perhaps you might want to concentrate on your own state, first? LGBTQ's are treated so much better in your state, aren't they?

You have the key LGBTQ's may not even be noticed until they openly protest and complain. Perhaps there is a message for you in that statement?

You have made the choice in your lifestyle, that choice comes with certain privleges and penalties and you can't receive one without accepting the other. This is a known fact in our society even today, therefore why is it necessary for you to attack openly the marriage between a man and a woman, tax exempt status of church's, the procreation of children by heterosexuals and men in general. Without men's involvement up to this point, you cannot procreate. (Continued) "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 9:12 AM:

" To: misty wrote on Nov 16, 2008 1:03 AM:

(Continued) You can dress like us, you can cut your hair like us, you can swagger like us, you can assume all the manerisms, but you lack the basic equipment to be us. What can we give your lovers that you can't, a baby? It's like this big jealousy trip, you would probably advocate our extinction if you didn't want children in your relationships. Is that true do you really hate men to that point? You find sex with a man discusting but yet your behavior is not suppose to be discusting to men. You call us wife beaters as if domestic violence only happens in heterosexual homes. Did you lose your reception to the Foxx Network and Cops? You call us adulterous when in several surveys the most premiscuous people are listed to be gay men, not heterosexual men. All these unfounded accusations are thrown in our direction by you and we are suppose to accept them as gospil and move on? I think that many of you have the bigots in this story wrongly accused. "

Deb wrote on Nov 16, 2008 11:14 AM:

" The true WD comes out. It's amazing how insecure some people are... "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 5:04 PM:

" To: Alihandero some interesting stats I stumbled on here my friend:
"All literature in classrooms concerning marriage will have to include homosexual marriage discussions and pictures of homosexual couples. GLSEN, [Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network] is stepping up its efforts to establish homosexual clubs on all school campuses. Their goals "extend to incorporating homosexual concepts into all curriculum, holding diversity seminars for teachers and students and ensuring that only positive discussions about homosexuality are allowed into elementary school classrooms, including kindergarten." http://www.newswithviews.com/NWVexclusive/exclusive16."

"A study of convicted child molesters, published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, found that "86 percent of offenders against males described themselves as homosexual or bisexual" (W. D. Erickson, M.D., et al., in Archives of Sexual Behavior 17:1, 1988). http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IF03H01"

'The rate of homosexual versus heterosexual child sexual abuse is staggering," said Reisman, who was the principal investigator for an $800,000 Justice Department grant studying child pornography and violence. "Abel's data of 150.2 boys abused per male homosexual offender finds no equal (yet) in heterosexual violations of 19.8 girls."

Once again the facts with sources, isn't it interesting what you find in print? This disputes the homosexual claims. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 5:09 PM:

" To: Alihandero some interesting stats I stumbled on here my friend:

Just an added comment for our friends who complain about divorce between heterosexuals.

"Even pro-homosexual sociologists Judith Stacey and Timothy Biblarz report in an American Sociological Review article: Children of lesbians are less likely to conform to traditional gender norms; Children of lesbians are more likely to engage in homosexual behavior; Daughters of lesbians are "more sexually adventurous and less chaste." Lesbian "co-parent relationships" are more likely to end than heterosexual ones. http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IF03H01"

I wonder if the taste of humble pie has entered their mouths at this point? Certainly all that shoe leather from inserting their own feet in their mouths is evident? Once again not conjecture, not mis quotes, not enuendo but facts based on evidence my friends. What now the renound Doctor is wrong an you all are right, not in this case. The statistics are wrong because you don't agree with them, how lame can you get. This was an unbiased study. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 5:21 PM:

" To: Alihandero some interesting stats I stumbled on here my friend:
This is the stuff they are printing in Gay magazines:

"A middle ground might be to fight for same-sex marriage and its benefits and then, once granted, redefine the institution of marriage completely, to demand the right to marry not as a way of adhering to society's moral codes but rather to debunk a myth and radically alter an archaic institution." —Michelangelo Signorile, "Bridal Wave," OUT magazine, December/January 1994, p. 161"

Then they claim this is about their rights and medical reasons, what a bunch of bull. Here is the ultimate goal, and I've stated all along for many not all, this is the objective in denouncing marriage between a man and a woman. Destroy it and the rest of the culture follows on it's knees fellow citizens. Jesus himself, stated we would be tested. Could this be the first of many tests for us and our faith. To do a morality check on the current society and see if we pass it? Is this his effort to determine if Sodom and Gamorah are still alive and well on earth? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 7:24 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Nov 16, 2008 1:14 PM:

" The true WD comes out. It's amazing how insecure some people are... "

Yes especially those who are demonstrating in the streets and shouting obsenities to Mormons who worship in Temples, that homosexuals are blocking their entrance to. That is the most amazing example of insecurity in this decade and it is all on display for the entire world to witness. You can't hide your deeds in a closet any longer. Now if that opinion shows you the real me, then perhaps it is time you dealt with an honest person for a change. You want to be me, I certainly don't want to be you. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 7:30 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Nov 16, 2008 1:14 PM:

I guess now we are going to rewrite the rule book and determine LGBTQ's are not held accountable for their actions? We are gonna give them a free ride when they block public entrances to public facilities and scream they are being deprived of some made up right? I don't see the comparison in that action. You don't realize you are for the first time showing your real selves and their are professionals examing that behavior. There are Police, Attorney's, Judges and others who remember that violence is how the original LBBTQ's battle for their rights began. They became violent and rioted in the streets in order to obtain more rights and freedoms and got handcuffs and jail sentences instead. When the Army National Guard is called out and believe me they are still enough in numbers left in this state to be called out. You will receive a whole new meaning of rights, curfews, loss of your right to assemble, loss or your right to speak in public, loss of your right to travel the cities without being stopped. Continued "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 7:36 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Nov 16, 2008 1:14 PM:
(Continued)
It is called "Martial Law" and the Govenator would be required to inact it or take a chance on being removed from office. He has an agenda to protect all people in the state not just LGBTQ's. If he refuses to do it the DOJ will send in the Federal Marshall's to protect the citizens and will call out the National Guard themselves. The Govenor will be relieved of duty and the Lt. Govenor will assume his responsibilities. That is why there are provisions for these actions. It almost came to that exact same point with a Govenor named Wallace, remember? Brown, Newsome and other supporters of your cause are running for Govenor, but I don't give them much hope of ever winning the office. I bet they will lose by at least a 52% margin. "

Big Picture wrote on Nov 16, 2008 9:06 PM:

" Watch Dog, it didn't take much to push you in the direction I knew you would go.
Protest is the highest form of patriotism. With out it we would not enjoy all we have today. I have worn the uniform for 17 years now. I take peoples rites extremely serous, because with all that has happened in the last 8 years I need know that it all still means something. My point is, I may not agree with the life style but I don't have the rite to deny another human being anything based on my morels or religious beliefs nor does my government. You can spout all the psychobabble and studies and all the scripture you want but it doesn’t mean anything. Just because there is a law doesn't mean it is lawful. It doesn't matter if 100% of vote was against gay marriage a rite is being denied a group of people and that cannot stand. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 16, 2008 10:14 PM:

" To Big Picture,
Big Picture wrote on Nov 16, 2008 11:06 PM:

" Watch Dog, it didn't take much to push you in the direction I knew you would go.
Protest is the highest form of patriotism. With out it we would not enjoy all we have today. I have worn the uniform for 17 years now. I take peoples rites extremely serous, because with all that has happened in the last 8 years I need know that it all still means something. My point is, I may not agree with the life style but I don't have the rite to deny another human being anything based on my morels or religious beliefs nor does my government. You can spout all the psychobabble and studies and all the scripture you want but it doesn’t mean anything. Just because there is a law doesn't mean it is lawful. It doesn't matter if 100% of vote was against gay marriage a rite is being denied a group of people and that cannot stand. "

Thank you. You've said it all and nailed it to a T. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 16, 2008 10:29 PM:

" WatchDog Fred, I know we have talked about this in another article. Somehow, it doesn't surprize me to read this article(blog) that all you do is put us gays and lesbians down. You use your relgious beliefs and you think that it's ok, but you fail to realize that there is so many DIFFERENT religions out there and we all have different religious views. You used your religious belief to cast your vote and deny my civil rights. How unchristain like. As Deb put it:Do you not know what a civil right is?
From WD's fav wiki: Civil and political rights are a class of rights ensuring things such as the protection of peoples' physical integrity; procedural fairness in law; protection from discrimination based on gender, religion, race, sexual orientation, etc; individual freedom of belief, speech, association, and the press; and political participation.

A gay woman can marry a man, but she may not marry the person (one that can legally enter a binding contract) of her choice.

That, B. is the description of being denied a civil right.
You can say whatever you want, the U.S. Supreme Court will overturn this, because it's discrimination! Period! "

Cammy wrote on Nov 16, 2008 10:44 PM:

" To B,
B. wrote on Nov 11, 2008 2:00 PM:

" Your civil rights have not been violated, you have every right to marry as anyone else. A man can marry a woman, and a woman can marry a man.
Once again you no on 8 people want something that doesn`t exist. Very obvious you don`t believe in democrocy or you wouldn`t be behaving like children. The people voted, that`s it. "

Yes our civil rights HAVE BEEN VIOLATED. From WD's fav wiki: Civil and political rights are a class of rights ensuring things such as the protection of peoples' physical integrity; procedural fairness in law; protection from discrimination based on gender, religion, race, SEXUAL ORIENTATION, etc; individual freedom of belief, speech, association, and the press; and political participation.

A GAY woman can marry a MAN, but she may NOT marry the person (one that can legally enter a binding contract) of her CHOICE.
That, B. is the description of being DENIED a civil right.
You expect us to bow our heads down and say thats it? Is that what happened when the Womens Rights took place? No i think not. Get real!!! "

Tony wrote on Nov 17, 2008 12:02 AM:

" I am a proud thesbian.
I am also a proud member of the Raider Nation.
You could say I am used to losing, but I never accept it.
Don't make me 'Go Lohan' on this subject because I very well may have a tuna sandwich with anyone who disagrees!
I swear...whoever came up with pickes in tuna was completely wrong.
No pickles here.
Regards, Kermit the Frog "

Melissa wrote on Nov 17, 2008 1:24 AM:

" Watchdog Fred, they are protests not riots. You are trying to predict a future, you are not stating fact. What is going on are protests, our many organizations are encouraging us to be peaceful. If there is violence, it has been acted on individualy not as a result of the protests. Like I have said before, some people do not deal well with having their rights taken away. I do not promote violence, nor do I partake, and no one I associate myself with does either. You are right we are not going to accept the revoking of our rights, If the shoe was on the other foot, as outspoken as you are, and since you yourself took place at a protest here in Hanford I know you would be doing the same. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 7:46 AM:

" To: Big Picture wrote on Nov 16, 2008 11:06 PM:

It astonishes me that after 17 years of serving our country you cannot get my point regarding the difference between peaceful assembly and demonstrating and blocking the fee passage of other citizens to conduct business as uaual.
I agree a peaceful protest is always allowed, but when people begin to handcuff theirselves to each other to stop the normal day to day life of other people then that is no longer peaceful. No one has a right to demonstrate in a manner which takes away the right of the general public to move about the country and do what is necessary for the time frame they block a city hall. I cannot believe you don't get that over a peaceful demonstration where speaches are given pamphlets are passed out and no one is restricted from anything. I fought for the peaceful method and evidently you fight for the other one, where there are no holds barred and anything goes as long as you state it is in the name of freedom and your right to assemble. Continued "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 7:53 AM:

" To: Big Picture wrote on Nov 16, 2008 11:06 PM:

This problem is going to esculate to the level of rioting and when it does, you know and I know it will be dealt with and my statements regarding that are truthful. But I do still Thank You for your service, even though we disagree.
I would not think that people being disrupted on their way to worship at their church or temple of choice would be something you would support. That is exactly what is happening to Mormons in Southern California. The statistics and information I presented in this blog came from exerpts of actual gay magazines and bonafide studies. If the truth hurts, then sobeit it is still the truth as they state it and as scientists in the studies measured and commented on it. If you advocate violent behavior by demonstrators then remember when you openly acknowledge that in print you must also take responsibility for what happens to them. Even if Arnold supports the demonstrations as you do, if & when they become out of hand he will not hesitate to call in the National Guard. "

Proud Dad wrote on Nov 17, 2008 10:07 AM:

" Melissa--Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

Now on to the protests, this isn't right that people are getting death threats, etc. That was the persons right to support the Proposition whichever side they picked. It is a democracy and that has to be accepted by all sides win or lose.
Protests work, Imagine if we hadn’t protested the tea tax, the Boston Tea Party would have never happened and we would still be living under tyranny. War protests are not a bad thing, as it will make the leader(s) think twice before sending out soldiers into harms way. We protested for the soldiers to receive better equipment in Iraq. The government listened and improved the equipment for them. This great country was not founded on people sitting quietly. "

chuck21 wrote on Nov 17, 2008 11:57 AM:

" To Misty and Watchdog Fred, god bless Texas. "

law dog wrote on Nov 17, 2008 1:33 PM:

" ATTENTION GAY PEOPLE:

YOU LOST

GET OVER IT

My presidential nominee didnt win but you dont see me protesting in the streets because of it. You dont always get your way. Thats life, deal with it. Here's some tissue for those crocodile tears. "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 17, 2008 1:55 PM:

" Re: this paragraph above..In Pasadena, the pastor of the 4,000-member All Saints Church spoke out against Proposition 8, calling the religious community's support of it "embarrassing, I would love to get face to face with this PASTOR and ask him while PREACHING SERVICES in his church of GOD what does he do when he comes to the passage of 'LEVITICUS' 20 v 13~ (just one of many) so does he just skip it, or maybe he just tore that entire page from his bible? and I can tell you I belong to a Church in KINGS CO and ALL are welcome but you may not like what you hear and that would be the TRUTH taken directly from the bible. we are taught to LOVE the Sinner but HATE the sin! I see so many "Gay" and "Lesbian" people on here talking about their kids ? so please explain to me how you had those children (if not adopted) because I may be from the deep woods of Kings county (where the most non enlightened or educated) people live BUT I do know enough that since the dawn of time that 2 men or 2 women (contined) "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 17, 2008 2:00 PM:

" CAN NOT lie together and CONCIEVE a child (ya' know that little precious gift from God).....so if there is nothing wrong with a homosexual life style why are they not BLESSED with a child TOGETHER ? .........NOW lets move on to marrying a "relative" common people as Over populated as this world is you cant find some one out side your family to fall in love with? PLEASE.
GOD LOVES EVERY ONE HE CREATED US ALL EQUAL BUT HE ALSO GAVE US ALL THE SAME COMMANDMENTS TO LIVE BY AND FOLLOW! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 2:11 PM:

" Proud Dad wrote on Nov 17, 2008 12:07 PM:

So then I must presume by your comments you disagree with Jesse Jackson and Martin Luther King Jr. who both during the 60's said violence was the wrong step. That to peacefully assemble is how you become heard. Do not block the streets to thru traffic do not commit violence against others as violence only begets violence.

If you don't agree with that it sure worked for a lot of people and gained them a lot of respect and rights they deserved, Proud Dad.

The people rioting in Watts isn't what won the Civil Rights it was people like John F. Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson who were willing to listen to and hear what people like Martin Luther King Jr. had to say and took action to make a change. If you are rioting in the streets and keeping people from worship and their own beliefs how can you claim an injustice when you are committing one? If you are upset with the Mayor does that mean you handcuff yourself together and block city hall. Continued "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 2:26 PM:

" Proud Dad wrote on Nov 17, 2008 12:07 PM:

Continued
Make death threats to the Mayor and a Pastor? Are those actions that would make you proud, Proud Dad? These are the things that are happening, how would you like to lose your job because you voted against the LGBTQ community? I think it is time we started calling for their jobs, if that is how they want to run this show. Let the Straight People who outnumber the LGBTQ community strike against all agencies who hire gays until they all are fired? Is that a way to use your political clout? They scream discrimination then they obtain a list of people who donated money to the Yes on 8 campaign and start sytematically calling for their resignations. That doesn't have a discriminatory ring to it? Let's be adults, that is not how you respect justice and the american way. Did we who had this decision on 22 overturned by 4 justices act this way, no we didn't we didn't call for any jobs other than those justices. We directed the anger in the right direction. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 2:28 PM:

" chuck21 wrote on Nov 17, 2008 1:57 PM:

Careful they will hang names on you and call you prejudice Chuck21. They don't like it when someone speaks their mind and puts the penny candy in the penny candy jar. They want all the rights under the sun but they can violate our rights at will. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 2:33 PM:

" Melissa wrote on Nov 17, 2008 3:24 AM:

The difference being Melissa the vote hadn't been taken yet, it was a Proposition undecided. Today is different it has been decided and I wasn't out on the corner with a sign when Proposition 22 was overturned by those stinking Justices. So what are you doing supporting a mute issue yourself. If you want to do something spend a trillion dollars on attorney's and keep dredging this up every eight years. You know that is gonna be the outcome. This is better than a divorce for attorney's a divorce is decided once and for all and the couple moves on, with this it goes and goes and goes like the little energizer bunny. For that I blame both sides. Did I protest when same sex partners got married at City Hall, no I didn't. Because at that time it was legal, it just so happens now it isn't. Didn't you get married within that time frame and if so, what do you care about it for now? Your marriage hasn't been declared illegal, yet? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 2:39 PM:

" Proud Dad I think the straight boycott should begin with the celebrities who supported No on 8 Ellen Degenerate and Brad Pitt and all other large contributors. Turn about should be fair play, if in his next film released only gays show up, then Brad might get the message. Same with Ellen reach over grab the remote control and flip it to another channel. When the sponsors see the trend they'll not pay for commercials on her show any longer. Just don't buy the sponsors products and tell your stores why you aren't buying them. Believe me Corporate Sponsor will get the message quick. Write letters to people like Comcast who supported them and voice your opinions. If Comcast doesn't hear then they think what they did is alright with everyone. Don't be afraid to let your dollars speak for you, as of today we have more dollars than they do. Stop it while we still can. That's the message they are sending, sometimes you must fight fire with fire. "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 17, 2008 4:27 PM:

" hey Misty, your in Texas so why dont you fight your battle there, this is a California issue and THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN! are Homosexuals allowed to legally get married there? I don't think so. So why not exercize your opinion there! I have personally witnessed two young children get so messed up because of that life style. first have children then decide you want the same sex gender" why not do it BEFORE running little childrens lives so PLEASE do not tell me this does not effect "OTHER" people.
Yes on Prop 8...... GO GOD!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Alihandero wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:32 PM:

" Tom Cruise notwithstanding,

I am waiting for the homosexual protesters to picket and throw a general hizzy-fit outside the Church of Scientology.

They do not support these shenanigans and consider marriage to be between a man and a woman.

In fact, founder L. Ron Hubbard was, well, not so understanding of the homosexual condition.

If anyone wants to see some real homophobia at work, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Scientology

And then please leave the poor Mormons alone. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 17, 2008 6:25 PM:

" Proud Dad, you are welcome, and thank you for asking and taking the time to read my post. I agree with you about the death threats, to me that is unacceptable as well, but you are right this country never got anything by sitting quietly, however I think it should be done peacfully, so I agree with you 100%. "

seriously wrote on Nov 17, 2008 7:07 PM:

" NHG and WDF,

Have you guys wondered, like me, why the gay community is hounding religious organizations for their support of prop 8 (which we all know was due to their moral and faith based values) and not protesting African Americans? The black community voted an overwhelming 70% FOR prop 8. So why or why are the gays not pounding the pavement in front of a predominately black church? After all, wouldnt gays be more upset that the black community did not support them in their "Civil and Equal Rights" cause? Werent they expected to be more understanding of the 'stuggle for equality' that gays are supposedly going thru? Things that make you go "Hmmmmm". "

seriously wrote on Nov 17, 2008 7:11 PM:

" Egging churches, blocking and protesting parishoners from entering their churches, gay pledge cards, and now trampeling an elderly woman and destroying her property while she was peacefully showing her support for the sanctity of traditional marriage.... what do all of those things have in common? They were all acts committed by gays. Respect for your cause is what you want, but with actions like that, you will never get it. Circular logic here on the sentinel blog runs rampant with the no on prop 8 people.
Misinterpretation of the constitution and twisting to fit your definition of the civil rights act and equal rights clause sure does not lend you any supporters. Attacking, yelling, and giving ridiculous examples to justify your lifestyle is getting you no where.
You all come on here and demand that we accept and support your cause. You have no regard for our opinion. You want us to respect your opinion and attack us for having our own because YOU do not agree. Your lunatic rantings have me more convinced that I cannot and will not accept the lifestyle choices of the bipolar manic deviants. Your words have made that choice easy! " "

B. wrote on Nov 17, 2008 11:53 PM:

" Hey Cammy......if what you`re saying is true, then why didn`t this come up 20 years ago? You people have been around that long if not longer, why were`nt you complaining then?
I`ll tell you why......it never exsisted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Homosexuals want to make their own rules and laws. I hear Mass. calling you. "

nevadaguy wrote on Nov 18, 2008 1:13 AM:

" 1,500 protested here in Las Vegas last saturday afternoon, including comedianne Wanda Sykes (who came out to the local media as well) honked my horn in support as I passed them on Sahara ave. Wish I could have joined them! "

Cammy wrote on Nov 18, 2008 11:07 AM:

" B. wrote on Nov 18, 2008 1:53 AM:
" Hey Cammy......if what you`re saying is true, then why didn`t this come up 20 years ago? You people have been around that long if not longer, why were`nt you complaining then?
I`ll tell you why......it never exsisted!!!!!
Homosexuals want to make their own rules and laws.
ed:
20 Years ago was totally different. Alot has happened in 20 years and we are so many step closer than we once were. Think about it,the world has advanced so much yet you think we will not make a stand? Times have changed my friend and the time is now to take that stand and prove to everyone that WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA deserve EQUAL RIGHTS, incase you didn't catch that i will say it again.EQUAL RIGHTS. We will not go down as 2nd class citizens. Wouldnt you complain to if people voted you down to be a 2nd class citizen? Turn the tables around B. Would you sit quietly and let people walk all over and violate your rights? You live a very sheltered life B. yes on 8 promotes HATE!!!! "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 18, 2008 11:28 AM:

" To Every one on here ...Did you see the news last night where five people (gays)-(lesbians) went into a church service and started yelling GAY IS OK and throwing (littering) their fliers all over the church then two "lesbians-gays" what ever they call their selves got up in front of the entire congreation and started kissing each other? so this is the way they expect to get a "change" and these churches are the ones they are fighting to have the right to marry in? most of them say they dont believe the bible or Gods words so what is the big deal about getting "MARRIED" in a "CHURCH" the house of God. if God nor his words mean nothing to them why not just get together at a frinds house, park etc and have a friend "PRONOUNCE' them as what evers? it makes no cence to fight to marry in Gods Church but spew on his word ???? can some one explain this to me....and what is the difference between gay and lesbian are two girls that are with each other not gay? "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 18, 2008 11:50 AM:

" To DANDRE: you are stating this in your comment--Praise Jesus and God Bless MY Unites States of America and All of Her Freedoms......yours doesn't measure up.....RESPONCE' you are prasing the one man that said this exzact life style is an OBOMINATION to him! so DO you serve Jesus or DON'T you! it is said "QUOTE" IF A MAN LIES WITH A MALE AS HE LIES WITH A WOMAN BOTH OF THEM HAVE COMITTED AN OBOMINATION. THEY SHALL SURLEY BE PUT TO DEATH THEIR BLOOD SHALL BE UPON THEM! you can not have it both ways. you can not just PICK and Choose what suits you and your chosen life style and LEAVE the rest you dont want to follow! by the way that was taken from the holy bible something you should think about READING i think it would help clear you thoughts while giving PRAISE to God! I will be praying for you. "

jeff wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:58 PM:

" B.,
I might be reading your comment out of context so if that is the case let me know but……. You say that Homosexuality didn’t exist until recently? I think you might want to research history a little bit. Also what about Sodom and Gamorrah? If you are the kind of person that believes the Bible is an accurate account of history wouldn’t that story prove you wrong? "

jeff wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:59 PM:

" Jacks_mom,

You mention a story about gay people going into a church and disrupting church services. You then act like this is an outrage that invading someone’s personal space is abhorrent. Isn’t this really just the same behavior you are engaging in when denying personal rights to another? You are entering into their personal lives and telling them how they can live. Now you know what it’s like. You also quote scripture to Dandre that tells how gay sex will result in death. Now I could be naïve but I believe that gay people engage in gay sex regardless of being married so I am left to wonder what banning gay marriage does for you here? Also, the Bible lists many actions that would be condemned by God and sinners would be put to death. Atheism is one of them, I am an Atheist yet heterosexual in my sexual orientation. Do you believe I shouldn’t be allowed to marry? You mention picking and choosing scripture to live by, does this mean you are in favor of stoning children to death at the city gates when they act defiantly? "

Dandre wrote on Nov 18, 2008 6:15 PM:

" Hey jacks mom.. save your prayers for yourself, you are a ‘reviler’, your use of scripture as a weapon is blasphemy and your ignorance together with your arrogance are high on the list of the ‘deadly sins’.
Your quote is the most ignorant of all, MY God, has given me the brains and understanding to know the complexities of Mother Nature and to celebrate what She and God creates. Simple minds have to reduce things to their ‘good’ and ‘evil’ in order to feed their arrogance and mask the ignorance. You are in NO position to tell anyone else how to live, the ‘hate’ that drips from your comments make a mockery of religion. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 18, 2008 7:08 PM:

" jacks_mom lol are you serious, lets see, we can have children, by invitro, by sperm donation uhhh surogacy, as for why we are protesting churches, no hun we were not fighting for the right to marry IN a church, you see you were one of those who believed we would make churches who do not agree with our life marry us or sue, that is a lie and just ridiculous, Really you should research the subject you are talking about. We are all homosexuals, lesbians are called so after a Greek island where only women lived and on that island there was a woman who wrote poetry to women, the name of that island? Lesbos. Also you need to remember that we do not all live by your bible, this is a free country, so just because your beliefs are one thing does not mean anyone else has to believe them. My suggestion to you..research the topic a little more, do not just go by what your pastor or preacher tells you, use your own mind and then come to your own conclusion, even if it does not agree with mine, at least it would be your own. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 18, 2008 7:18 PM:

" seriously, does that description ring true for you as well You do not agree with us, so you come on here and make nasty comments about our life, about who we are, stereo typing all of us by actions of a few, and you think you are justified?
I have news for you, we are not all bipolar maniacs. But by all means keep showing how you stereo type that which you do not understand. There is a difference between mental illness and sexual orientation. I do not agree with the methods chosen by a SELECT few homosexuals, however, since heterosexuals have murdered, beaten, raped and abused homosexuals for years I do not know why you think you can get on a pedastal and say we are the mentally ill ones. Your lunatic ravings just prove my point, your intolerance to that which is different from you is coming thru in a very spiteful manner, yet you want to say something about us? "

B. wrote on Nov 18, 2008 10:14 PM:

" 20 years ago we didn`t have homosexuals protesting all over the country whining & crying, threating people, vandalizing churches demanding marriage rights. Your rights were`nt violated then...what makes now any different?
You and people like you are trying to change them. "

Dandre wrote on Nov 19, 2008 6:21 AM:

" Melissa...let give you some ammo.. The scripture that jacks_moron, I mean mom, and all the other biblists, I mean, christians, use is Leviticus. The 'list of sins' given there includes a word that gets no attention, a 'reviler'. The Biblical 'word' for someone with no 'tolerance'.
The 'reviler' uses the Bible as a weapon of judgement and hate rather than the 'positive' in their life. The 'reviler' will be judged and punished as all they revile, usually hiding behind the 'love the sinner hate the sin' 'bs'.
ALSO, FYI, my studies of the Bible, included the physical attributes of it. Before 900AD, the only text available was written in cursive(the letters were connected) with NO vowels, i.e., without the cursive, the first line of Genesis would look like this in english:

nthbgnnnggdcrtdthhvnndthrthndthrthwswithutfrmndvdnddrknsswspnthfcfthdp "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 19, 2008 7:44 AM:

" DANDRY, my use of scripture is a weapon of blasphemy ? first of all that was not MY quote that quote was taken DIRECTLY from the Holy Bible and if you fill it is a "deadly sin" thats your concviction not mine! and second you say what "mother nature" and God creates' mother nature created NOTHING ! God created every thing. look it up in Genesis 1-1 .
if what I wrote bothers you sorry it is the TRUTH.
and as far as telling anyone how to live I never. I just stated there are people including myself that will NEVER except the life style that gay's choose to live. and since your so intellegent on bible scripture PLEASE do share what scripture states HOMOSEXUAL is an excepted way of life by God. I would be more than happy to read, study, what ever to expand my Simple mind. as for hate in my life there is none" that is also against God's wishes for us. "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 19, 2008 8:19 AM:

" Melissa :so you can have children, by invitro, by sperm donation uhhh surogacy, so what about CONSEPTION with your same sex partner? I did notice that one was not listed in there. so WHY can you not pro-create with your partner? because it is un'natural and it was never meant to be! two males or two females together CAN NOT - EVER in this world CONCIEVE together. as far as a free country you are correct I have as much freedom to say my feelings on here just as well as you, or any other American. and we will just have to agree to disagree that neither side is going to go away! you are not going to change your life style and we will never agree to it...so there you have it. and as far as just listening to my pastor I do not live by his words alone and weather you believe it or not I have disagreed with some things said in my church. I read the bible and try to live by it the best I can am I perfect "NO" I am not and any one who "thinks" they are their wrong. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 10:12 AM:

" " To: Melissa wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:20 PM:

Fred you are not my judge huh? They why is it you feel you have the right to tell me I can not get married because you do not agree with my lifestyle? Why do you think you can call me a hypocrite for trying to do right by my family and embrace their beliefs? Hmmmmm I think you need to do some soul searching. "

I didn't do any of that Proposition 8 did, I just voted for it. That is my right as a Registered Voter in California, it is the right of all people up to and including the Moromons.

You chastize one group of people then you call for the resignations of voters who backed this issue? Yet if either of those circumstances were happening to you, you would be the first to yell Prejudice/Discrimination and go bawling into the night. What makes you think those actions aren't prejudice to the Mormon Faith and the Hard Working people of California?

A vote was taken for the seond time and it became an amendment, much more difficult to overturn. " "

Cammy wrote on Nov 19, 2008 3:03 PM:

" B. wrote on Nov 19, 2008 12:14 AM:

" 20 years ago we didn`t have homosexuals protesting all over the country whining & crying, threating people, vandalizing churches demanding marriage rights. Your rights were`nt violated then...what makes now any different?

Litlle do you know that WE HAVE been fighting for our rights for a very long time. Now it is wrong to do it in a distasteful way, i wish that never happened. We are not wining and crying, only making a stand with our rights. What you about you guys? Wining and crying because us gays are"different" and we are"stirring up" things. We are simply doing what you guys are doing. Making a stand. Your right, yo will always NOT APPROVE and we will always FIGHT FOR OUR CIVIL RIGHTS. Some heteros are so sheltered it's not even funny. Look up "Hate Crimes" , Mathrew Shepard, and Brandon Teena on UTUBE. They are deceased victims of Hate Crime caused by people who dislike and don't approve of our lifestyle. Do some REAL research and what we really go through and then you tell me if that is truely the "christain way" or whatever the religion may be. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 19, 2008 3:41 PM:

" jacks_mom wrote:
and as far as telling anyone how to live I never. I just stated there are people including myself that will NEVER except the life style that gay's choose to live.

Really re-read what you just said. You ARE telling us how to live! You said it loud and clear! You are telling us how to live by denying our equal right. Now is that fair? I don't need you saying it's wrong.. blah blah blah. There is sooooooo much that heteros do that is soooooo wrong yet you don't see us outcasting you. Bottom line is: everything we do is a sin, right? Get over it. Let us be happy for once and be able to tend to our mates without having to hire a goshdarn lawyer, which most of us cannot afford to do so since we all struggle to make ends meet. Remember, Domestic Partnership IS DIFFERENT. We DO NOT have the same rights as you and thats why we are fighting tooth and nail for them- Not to rub in your faces. We want the same PROTECTION. I wish everyone would end violence and hatred. it solves nothing. That goes for BOTH SIDES. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 19, 2008 4:10 PM:

" Dandre thank you for the new terminology! I will definitly be using it. Correct me if I am wrong, but Chrisitans are supposed to be living by the New Testament and regard the old as stories? From my knowledge of the bible the New Testament was written after Jesus came to Earth and died for everyones sins, and the old Testament was before Christ. Its nice to know they can preach one way of life but pull from the other when it suits their argument.

Nice translation, that is one problem I have always had with the bible, originally it was not written in English so any amount of information could have been omitted or added in translation. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 19, 2008 4:21 PM:

" jacks_mom conception is the scientific term for when the egg and sperm are united, Again I do not need to lay with a man for that to happen, my girlfriend can be just as involved in my insemination as she wants to be, but that is no more your business than it is mine what happens in your bedroom, so I would appreciate you keeping the conceptions of my children where they belong, between me and my partner,you worry about how you concieve your own children. As for reading your bible and living by it the best you can, if you were living it the best you can you would live by the New Testament, and you would not be judging because you would know that is a sin. You would also know that no sin is greater and that would put you in the same place you are putting me right? As for homosexuality and nature, we are not the only species that are born homosexual and God made all creatures right? He made them and He made us. That is as natural as it gets. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 19, 2008 4:49 PM:

" WatchDog,You wrote:A vote was taken for the seond time and it became an amendment, much more difficult to overturn. " "

Yes it may be more difficult to overturn, BUT, it can be done. I say it again.IT CAN BE DONE
You can go on and say whatever you want. But you can't sit here and say that it will not happen again because you really do not know, I don't know. It's up to the Supreme Court and what THEY DECIDE, You cast your vote, BASED ON YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. There poses a problem with that. It DOES DISCRIMINATE AGAINST ME AND THE REST OF THE GAY COMMUNITY. ARE YOU STILL BLIND FRED? Open your ears and eyes and look around. We are not demons. We have the same wishes, desires, dreams, goals, in life as you. I do not go into your bedroom and tell you how run to your life. So why are you invading in my bedroom? Our heart beats the same, our blood has the same color. We are talking about human beings here Fred,Not a bunch of herd of animals. Prop 8 became an amendment the day you voted not before! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 5:37 PM:

" To: Alihandero wrote on Nov 17, 2008 7:32 PM:

If these people aren't careful, the Scientologists are gonna defrost Ron L. and Walt Disney and bring them back to life and let them see what this country and Disney Inc. have become.

I don't want to be around on that special pass night at Disneyland. That's gonna be one big company party in Tomorrowland. I wouldn't want to be on the Submarine that night, it might not come back up. "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 19, 2008 8:32 PM:

" Melissa:
so your girlfriend can be as involved in as much as she wants with the EXCEPTION of providing the male sperm! you know the other thing needed to fertalize the female egg. as i stated and I will continue to state two females can not lie together and procreate and two males can not lie together and procreate PERIOD. and that is not "getting in your bedroom" that is stating a fact. and as far as only following the New Testament no I read and follow the entire Bible. I do not know where you are getting your coaching regarding biblical teachings but who ever is feeding you needs to get in church or at least the bible ALL of it! again you do not just pick and choose what you want to follow a Christian lives all of it from Genesis to Revelations thats from front cover to back cover in case your coach dosen't know. and how is it that I am judging you any more than you are judging me because I do not believe like you do, that goes both ways. again tell me what scripture supports homosexual life style. "

Dandre wrote on Nov 19, 2008 9:31 PM:

" Jacksmom…You talk about ‘conception’ and ‘pro-creating’ like you know what you’re talking about but I have a question for you and this question is relevant to some other anti-choice legislation being proposed. If you believe that ‘human life’ begins at conception, what ‘gender’ are we at the moment of ‘conception’?
The answer would mean nobody could get married. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 11:36 PM:

" dandy dre' rides through once more with his hated bible under one arm atop his dragon from hell slicing with his sword made of hell fire and brimstone at anything that remotely looks Christian. I wonder with all those heavy books to carry and that black heart how and the world does he do it ladies and gentlemen. As if on a crusade procured and delivered by Satan himself.

He spews venomous accounts of the First Testament, followed by scornful threats from the New Testatment. While randomly striking at the keyboad and telling people this is what Genisis looked like when he was in short pants. Meanwhile crying to the rooftops he doesn't believe in Chrisianity, God or anything else except for Mr. Whipple the guy who did the Charmin Commercials. Honestly, break down his oratory skills and you will see a resemblence to someone else's.

He burns a Bible a day just for practice and then professes to have this Christain Catholic upbringing in which he declares all the sisters were witches from the land of oz and the Priests were molesting his friends. Shirt Tie and Short Pants, The End! "

Pete wrote on Nov 20, 2008 8:58 AM:

" Well, now it's going to the California Supreme Court, and that's how it should be handled. If they overturn it we can have another vote by the people in the future. If they allow it to stand then some people need to accept it for now. This really proves how wrong the No on 8 people have been acting! "

Dandre wrote on Nov 20, 2008 11:56 AM:

" Hey, fred, I knew my post was going to be waaaay over your head Biblically. The love and relationship I have with MY God and MY Bible is MY business. My early and lengthy Biblical education is something I took for granted, until I came upon these posts and realized that the ‘positive’ faith created in MY life could be distorted into the ‘venom’ that people like you, must not even realize, ‘infects’ YOUR life.
YOU go on a little fantasy trying to make ME sound like the ‘hater’ that YOU, B, jacksmom, B, DA, B, ali, etal. ENJOY being.
I don’t WASTE my energy on hating anybody fred, MY ‘sin’ is lack of empathy for ignorance and ‘revulsion’(there’s the sin) for stupidity.
The PURPOSE of a relationship with God is to ‘earn’ YOUR ‘eternal Peace’, salvation.
IT IS A LIFE’S WORK, fred AND EVERY MOMENT SPENT AS A ‘reviler’ IS, NOT ONLY, NOT ONE STEP CLOSER TO SALVATION IT IS TWO STEPS BACK!
How many YEARS of your life have YOU been going BACKWARDS, fred? "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 20, 2008 12:38 PM:

" Dandre, what part of conception don't you understand? At the moment of conception the gender is decided by the sperm that embeds in the egg, it is either male or female. The sperm is either x or y and the egg is able to receive only one sperm. The embryo doesn't start developing and then all of sudden determine which sex it is, it is encoded in the genome of the DNA of the sperm.

Not for all of the love coming to me from the No on 8 side, as it is apparent that is only us for same sex marriage that are capable of hate (sure couldn't tell by all of the names that I have been called). I see in the news today that Eharmony was sued for not have their website set up to allow same sex coupling. And again you will state that if Prop 8 failed you wouldn't be suing churches to marry you? I tried to use the exclusion of PRIVATE country clubs in the past about excluding people and your side responded that they were public? "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 20, 2008 12:48 PM:

" Dandre: are you even for real? who cares what the sex is at the moment of conseption ONLY God knows that..as for me knowing what I am talking about being I have three children (blessings from God) CONCIEVED with my husband in the NATURAL way with out invitro, sperm donation, surogacy, ya' I do know what I am talking about. as for you ...you are so pathetic stop praticing your witch craft and burning your black candles'. "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:00 PM:

" PETE: what do you mean now it's going California Supreme Court, and thats how it should be, they are the ones that just decided after we the people of California voted on prop 22- they would take it upon them selves to change it thats why prop 8 was even on the ballotts and let me tell you if they "just change it again" they will be out of a job! it was put to the California people to a vote and we voted but because they did not get their way it is going to be looked at again! SO I did not get the President I wanted so all the people that did not want Barack nobama should just take to the streets and get it changed? THATS WHAT VOTING IS FOR not every one gets their way! "

jeff wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:18 PM:

" jacks_mom,

You say “and as far as only following the New Testament no I read and follow the entire Bible.”

If this is true why is it you couldn’t answer my questions to you regarding Bible law? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:57 PM:

" dandy dre' now to coin a popular phrase, correct me if I'm wrong. But at the very exact moment that the sperm fertilizes the egg of a woman does it not become one into itself? However relying on the mothers nutritional system, and other various life support systems contained in a woman's womb? Thus no longer being called or referred to as a fetus but to be called and referred to as a baby? Now dare you say this is only in the case where a man and a woman love each other and the baby is wanted?
Do you know how a baby is aborted when it comes to full term dandy dre". The Abortionist delivers it and takes a medical instrument and runs it through the back of the babies head and ends it's life. In any other circumstance in the world that would be considered murder. But your President Elect voted for it to continue and supports it. How can anyone support the notion that when the baby has been delivered that the abortion was for the benefit of the mothers health, is beyond me. "

Dandre wrote on Nov 20, 2008 7:51 PM:

" Until that 'chromosome' splits, we are ALL 'females'. The 'sex' may have been 'determined but until that 'split', you are a 'male' trapped in a 'female' fetus.....ain't Mother Nature wonderful! "

Dandre wrote on Nov 20, 2008 8:05 PM:

" Hey jacksmom and all you holier than thou, wikopedia '7 deadly sins' or '7 cardinal sins' and find what is says about 'homosexuality' and then read sin #7 and read what it says about 'pride'.
and then go look in the mirror. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:12 PM:

" jacks_mom I do not have a coach, I was born and raised in a church, I went every Sunday morning and night and weds night. I went to bible camp, my parents and uncles went to bible college to be missionaries, One uncle has started many churches here in the states while the other travels abroad and has started churches in countries that do not have freedom of religion. He trains missionaries to start churches and is in Brazil doing so as I write this blog. I do not have to tell my "coach" anything I have lived that life, my family is that life. So I know where I speak when I say that as a Christian you are to pattern your life after Jesus and regard the old Testament as stories. I have a question for you, why would you assume I needed a "coach" to tell me anything about Christians? Is it because I am homosexual? Do you think that because I am homosexual I know nothing about religion? What a judgment on your part. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:12 PM:

" jacks_mom cont... We live in a country where there is freedom of religion. There are other religions that do not live by the bible, I do not see you challenging them to find a scripture in your bible to support their lifestyle. However I will challenge you to find a law in this country that prohibits me from living my life the way I am? I do not believe in organized religion and that is my right and protected by law, just as your right to live your life by the bible is. I also have the right to not have your religion dictate my life. I have the right to equality, to have the same rights as anyone else in this country. Discrimination is illegal in this state. Now as for pro-creating, my girlfriend and I can go to a sperm bank and buy sperm, how I pro-create is really none of your business, pro-creation is not a requirement for marriage, if it was barron women and sterile men could not marry. Be it fact or your belief it is still a personal experience between my girlfriend and myself and does not concern you. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 20, 2008 11:13 PM:

" To: Dandre wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:56 PM:

Thank You dandy dre' once again I don't need to say another word you said it all for me: The World According to dandre' either believe as I do or you will all surely go to hell and not enjoy the trip on your way.

There is another Bible burned a sister cursed and a Priest charged with bad behavior according to the Master of the Lord's Word dandy dre'

You should have been a Priest, you don't believe in divorce, but adultery is o.k., you would rather lay down with another woman and gratify yourself than to admit to your wife it just isn't working. As long as you keep that one woman in bondage from the time she says I do until she takes her last breath then you declare yourself a happily married man with adulterous and dishonering tendencies, but that is o.k. cause according to you and Bill Clinton that is accepted behavior in a man. What a warped view of marriage no wonder you don't care who joins you in your misery.

Another Bible burned, another sermon preached. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 20, 2008 11:27 PM:

" To: Dandre wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:56 PM:

dandy dre' the last time and only time you ever sent anything out over my head was probably a torn page from a bible fashioned into a paper air plane and you launched it with all your vast knowledge of all religions and their true meaning according (Gorp), I mean dandy dre'. All contained on a single written page that could be left with the rest of it in a motel/hotel room somewhere along the nations highways for some poor soul to read. Tell me was it hard building that Arc and gathering the animals? What about carving the ten commandments in stone was that task overwhelming for you? Oh and then holding all that water back while Jesus parted the sea, did that hurt your back? Did the slaying of your brother take a toll on your poor laden soul? You've had such a busy life, well Sunday is coming just kick back pop a 40 ouncer and enjoy the day? Burn your candles and make your chants, we know all about you, we were warned. "

Pete wrote on Nov 21, 2008 7:29 AM:

" jacks mommy, I meant going to the Court is the right way to handle it compared to acting like trash and protesting in the streets with violence. Don't you agree? "

Pete wrote on Nov 21, 2008 7:31 AM:

" jacks mommy, I meant going to the Court is the right way compared to acting like trash and protesting in the streets with violence. Don't you agree? "

jeff wrote on Nov 21, 2008 9:21 AM:

" NHG,

Sex is not determined at the point of conception. It is determined by the genes carried in chromosomes. All embryos are hermaphroditic by default. Lab mice have “Naturally” been born with XX karyotype’s but were male instead of females thus making them transgenic. The male and female gene carried in the X and Y chromosomes basically hold a battle royal and whoever wins determines the sex. It is possible to have a mutated Wnt-4 gene that actually masculinizes the female and it is possible to have mutated SRY genes feminizing a male.

Bible Thumpers,

Seeing as how you all believe we are all created by God exactly how he wanted us to be this means God makes gay people. Jacks_mom admits this herself when she says “who cares what the sex is at the moment of conseption ONLY God knows that.” If you have a problem with it, take it up with God and leave the rest of us out of it. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 21, 2008 1:13 PM:

" To: jeff wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:21 AM:

You are good I get off topic but even I can't go from Gay Rights Protest to Lab rats. "

jeff wrote on Nov 21, 2008 4:43 PM:

" Fred,

Of course you couldn’t, you don’t understand Science. One of your (Prop 8 supporters) main arguments is that homosexuality is not natural. My lab rat comment shows that it is. Sorry, I should have realized you would need a map drawn in order to understand that. "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 21, 2008 5:27 PM:

" Jeff you must really wear your "GOOGLE" key out...LOL.. you really try to sound so intellegent but every time you post to the blog you just show how sad and pathetic and lonely you must really be, go grab your little boyfriends hand and cry on his shoulder a while maybe then you will start making more sense. you have tried so hard to make your case against God that I see you are really starting to fill his love and thats all we Christians want is for you gay folks to know Jesus loves you, so no matter what the lab rats tell you Jesus really does love you! "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 21, 2008 5:37 PM:

" Common Watchdog Fred... you dont need a map just use your GOOGLE key like Jeff. we really need to hang out with him he just sounds so intellegent....lol.... HEY JEFF now that we know how the rats are "genetically" created EXPLAIN to me again how is it that two of the same sex can have sexual relations and one get out of the bed impregnanted SO that we are VERY clear on this I am speaking two MALES together or two FEMALES together , I am sorry I have GOOGLED IT more than once but apperantly I am just not as smart as you BECAUSE I just CAN NOT find it..HELP! "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 21, 2008 5:45 PM:

" Pete wrote on Nov 21, 2008 9:31 AM:

" jacks mommy, I meant going to the Court is the right way compared to acting like trash and protesting in the streets with violence. Don't you agree? "

PETE~ no it should not go back to court it should not go any where it was VOTED on TWICE!
so what keep sending it back to court till it is changed and the California voters are pretty much told ..sit down, shut up, pay your taxes and we will do what we want...I think not!
if prop 8 had failed we would of had to deal with the defeat just like I did with the president
I do not like the person that was picked for president but it was voted on so i have to except it..
I dont see any one taking that to court because they didnt get their way, thats how we decide in this country we VOTE !!!!!! "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 21, 2008 6:41 PM:

" MELISSA, ....Melissa wrote on Nov 19, 2008 6:10 PM:

"Dandre thank you for the new terminology! I will definitly be using it. Correct me if I am wrong, but Chrisitans are supposed to be living by the NewTestament and regard the old as stories? argument----------- MELISSA this is why i asked who was coaching you, once again you jump to the conclusion that i made that statement because your gay. so JUDGMENT! and if you have that many Christians in your family I am sure there must be at least one that has spoken to you about homosexuality . and the fact that I made about you and your friend not being able to have SEX together and one of you end up pregnant must really be bothering you because you keep bringing it up... my statment was if there were no s/banks, and no willing male there would be no children born from the two of you...FACT! "

Melissa wrote on Nov 21, 2008 10:38 PM:

" JACKS_MOM see I can use caps too, does it make me sound any better no. You call yourself a Christian, a faith that is strong in loving everyone, and then you say this to someone

"you really try to sound so intellegent but every time you post to the blog you just show how sad and pathetic and lonely you must really be, go grab your little boyfriends hand and cry on his shoulder a while maybe then you will start making some sense"~jacks_mom

Real Christian like, no wonder not everyone flocks to church. My statement to Dandre while I was thanking him for the terminology, was me being funny showing how ironic it is that those who are New Testament Christians pick and choose what scripture you use to prove points. My point here is proven, do you think Jesus would have talked to a person like you just did? Where in the New or Old Testament does it verify you in treating another human being like that? The fact is you are supposed to live as Jesus would, that is what scripture says, and that is in the New Testament, that is how you are supposed "

Melissa wrote on Nov 21, 2008 10:50 PM:

" JACKS_MOM cont..to live your life. That which is by the New Testament, the Old Testament was before Jesus. Now how is asking you a question make me judging you? Even IF I was assuming that is different than judging. You know really before you say anything like what you said to Jeff, maybe you need to google the Merriam Websters Dictionary and look up some definitions for yourself. Need I remind you that you are the one who brought up how me and my GIRLFRIEND (let me correct your terminology there, i have many friends but they are not my partner) concieve. I responded to each and everyone of your posts, you brought it up, I responded, that is how blogs work. It does not bother me how my girlfriend and I concieve, it is beautiful and great experience between US. What bothers me is you thinking it is any of your concern. Marriage is not based on procreation if it was barren women and sterile men could not get married, by your definition only heterosexuals in child bearing ages would be allowed to marry. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:00 PM:

" JACKS_MOM cont.. Now as for my family talking to me lol hun I am an adult, and I do not believe in organized religion. Been there done that, my family knows how I feel, no need to talk about anything. Why would they need to talk to me about it anyway? Just curious as to why you think that at my age my family should have anything to do with the way my life is lived. Your family is Christian I assume, do they talk to you about treating others how you want to be treated, and making sure you understand what "cast the first stone" means? In case you forgot, in the bible it states that Jesus hung out with thieves, beggars, and even a couple prostitutes (hence where cast the first stone comes from) maybe you need to clean up your back yard before trying to clean mine. "

GOD'S_CREATION wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:28 PM:

" To Jacks_Mom,
AMEN,AMEN,AMEN,
Well said...I can see you know the word of GOD !!!
We have only ( ONE GOD ) whom CREATED all ..
His words clearly state ( A MAN SHALL NOT LAY WITH ANOTHER MAN AND NEITHER SHALL A WOMAN LAY WITH ANOTHER WOMAN ) It's an abomination to GOD...The word of ( GOD ) also states that if we see a brother or sister in error then go to them in ( LOVE) and to let them know...
So it's a sorry excuse when the one's say we are judging them ...lol were only letting them know the facts of what our FATHER IN HEAVEN TELLS US !!! AMEN ! We are ( Commanded to love thy neighbor ) All we can do is continue to pray for them and leave it all up to the LORD for judgement day ...( LORD HAVE MERCY ) Besides it is very nasty !! No morals, no class, no respect no nothing...it's the ( HEATHEN WHO IS BEHIND ALL THIS SIN ) Shame on the people who don't love and ( OBEY ) their creator !!! blessings to all !!! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 22, 2008 3:53 AM:

" To: jeff wrote on Nov 21, 2008 6:43 PM:

Science, isn't that the exact study of something, eliminating all possibility for error? Tell that to all the astronauts who lost their lives in the Space Program, cause you aren't selling it to me.

Oh and another thing, isn't science also where they study those little mice and say what effect giving them tons of sugar substitute will do to us humans?

If you want to make the mice happy, give them tons of Viagra and give them some privacy. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 22, 2008 3:59 AM:

" To: jacks_mom wrote on Nov 21, 2008 8:41 PM:

Watch what you say jacks_mom, Melissa and Gavin Newsome "whether you like it or not" will legislate a demand that a male provide the sperm by which to impregnant all gay women. Then the donor will be stuck with child support but never allowed to visit the result of his donation. He'll get possession of the "partnership agreement" of the two women, every other weekend. This is presented to you by 'WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 22, 2008 5:15 AM:

" To: dandy dre'

Deffinition
reviler: to subject to verbal abuse

Is this what you really think sharing facts and opinions are dandy dre'? Do you really suspect us of verbal abuse to other bloggers, something you yourself would never partake in doing? I find it astounding you'd even suggest anyone did anything that cold and callous on the blogs.

callous
: feeling no emotion b: feeling or showing no sympathy for others
I think we demonstrate a lot of feeling and show sympathy quite often, myself. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 22, 2008 5:15 AM:

" To: dandy dre'

Get out your Bible it is a new day. "

Pete wrote on Nov 22, 2008 9:32 AM:

" jacks mommy, you are dead wrong. There is an appeal process and they have that right. And if they stop the senseless protesting while waiting for the courts decision (maybe in March) it is better. I know you agree with me, don't you? "

Dandre wrote on Nov 22, 2008 7:40 PM:

" Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 22, 2008 7:15 AM:
" To: dandy dre'

Deffinition
reviler: to subject to verbal abuse


Fred, ‘reviler’ is a noun…..you defined a ‘verb’ and there is only one ‘f’ in ‘definition’!
Your lack of Biblical knowledge and traditional interpretations is comical, fred. Ask your minister.
Your attempts to marginalize Catholicism is odd, since we are the original Christians.
This just in:
A Letter to My Brother Newt Gingrich from Candace Gingrich
Dear Newt,
I recently had the displeasure of watching you bash the protestors of the Prop 8 marriage ban to Bill O'Reilly on FOX News. I must say, after years of watching you build your career by stirring up the fears and prejudices of the far right, I feel compelled to use the words of your idol, Ronald Reagan, "There you go, again."
However, I realize that you may have been a little preoccupied lately with planning your resurrection as the savior of your party, so I thought I would fill you in on a few important developments you might have overlooked.

The truth is that you're living in a world that no longer exists. "

Dandre wrote on Nov 22, 2008 7:42 PM:

" (Letter to Nrwt, cont.) I, along with millions of Americans, clearly see the world the way it as -- and we embrace what it can be. You, on the other hand, seem incapable of looking for new ideas or moving beyond what worked in the past.

Welcome to the 21st century, big bro. I can understand why you're so afraid of the energy that has been unleashed after gay and lesbian couples had their rights stripped away from them by a hateful campaign. I can see why you're sounding the alarm against the activists who use all the latest tech tools to build these rallies from the ground up in cities across the country.

This unstoppable progress has at its core a group we at HRC call Generation Equality. They are the most supportive of full LGBT equality than any American generation ever -- and when it comes to the politics of division, well, they don't roll that way. 18-24 year olds voted overwhelmingly against Prop 8 and overwhelmingly for Barack Obama. And the numbers of young progressive voters will only continue to grow. "

Dandre wrote on Nov 22, 2008 7:44 PM:

" (Letter to Newt, cont.)According to the Center for Information and Research on Civic Learning, about 23 million 18-29 year olds voted on Nov. 4, 2008 -- the most young voters ever to cast a ballot in a presidential election. That's an increase of 3 million more voters compared to 2004.

These are the same people who helped elect Barack Obama and sent a decisive message to your party. These young people are the future and their energy will continue to drive our country forward. Even older Americans are turning their backs on the politics of fear and demagoguery that you and your cronies have perfected over the years.

This is a movement of the people that you most fear. It's a movement of progress -- and your words on FOX News only show how truly desperate you are to maintain control of a world that is changing before your very eyes.

Then again, we've seen these tactics before. We know how much the right likes to play political and cultural hardball, and then turn around and accuse us of lashing out first. "

Dandre wrote on Nov 22, 2008 7:46 PM:

" (Letter to Newt, cont.)You give a pass to a religious group -- one that looks down upon minorities and women -- when they use their money and membership roles to roll back the rights of others, and then you label us "fascists" when we fight back. You belittle the relationships of gay and lesbian couples, and yet somehow neglect to explain who anointed you the protector of "traditional" marriage. And, of course, you've also mastered taking the foolish actions of a few people and then indicting an entire population based on those mistakes. I fail to see how any of these patterns coincide with the values of "historic Christianity" you claim to champion.

Again, nothing new here. This is just more of the blatant hypocrisy we're used to hearing.

What really worries me is that you are always willing to use LGBT Americans as political weapons to further your ambitions. That's so '90s, Newt. In this day and age, it's embarrassing to watch you talk like that. You should be more afraid of the new political climate in America, because, there is no place for you in it.

In other words, stop being a hater, big bro. "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 23, 2008 12:48 PM:

" Dear Pete: ok I'll bite say they (Supreme Court) over turn the vote then what? .... the people of California that voted for Prop eight or even people that did not vote at all but are against two people of the same sex getting married. then what! when will it stop, when will one side or the other say ok we will except it (the decision) not homosexuality or vise versa....where does it go then. "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 23, 2008 1:13 PM:

" this is to BOTH sides..where do we draw the line. there are people that are attracted to only very young children, or attracted to animals, so would you consider their rights being violated if they were not allowed to marry the child or marry the animal. I am not trying to ba a smart A@@ I am serious please give me your feedback on this with out the sarcasim. if homosexual people are eventually allowed to marry because of a violation of rights what will stop these people from stepping up and claiming their rights are being violated. THOUGHTS any one! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 23, 2008 3:23 PM:

" Dandre wrote on Nov 22, 2008 9:46 PM:
If your copy and paste is used to compare me with the likes of Newt, then I am honored. He was the leader of the last Congress to sign a contact with America and made changes never before imagined in extending their hands across the aisle to get things done.
As for his sister, he has always demonstrated love for her and never even at the top of his career did he turn his back on her, utter words of shame and concern for her well being. Nor did he make a public outburst about her beliefs. It is only too sad that she could not have lived out her life bringing the same honor on him. She attacks him rather than enlightening him, I hardly consider that honor. His comments were never directed directly in her line of fire, the way hers are here.
But don't be surprised in the near future if he doesn't have a reply, but then he's such an honorable guy he may not. He speaks his mind on an issue he feels strongly about, to which he is entitled. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 23, 2008 3:30 PM:

" To: Dandre wrote on Nov 22, 2008 9:46 PM:

dandy dre' I looked it up and it still doesn't change the meanig being used as a noun, so your point is:

Main Entry: re·vile
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈvī(-ə)l\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): re·viled; re·vil·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French reviler to despise, from re- + vil vile
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
: to subject to verbal abuse : vituperate
intransitive verb
: to use abusive language : rail
synonyms see scold
— re·vile·ment \-ˈvī(-ə)l-mənt\ noun
— re·vil·er noun

I hit an extra f, so for that you want an apology. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 23, 2008 3:31 PM:

" To: Dandre wrote on Nov 22, 2008 9:46 PM:

Can you explain to me why Ms. Gengay left out the Q's in her letter to big bro?

It is suppose to be LGBTQ's dandy dre get political correct will ya. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 23, 2008 3:47 PM:

" To: jacks_mom wrote on Nov 23, 2008 3:13 PM:
Well in all honesty there are laws in place to stop pedophiles from marrying their victims. There are laws against beastiality also, so that I don't think would change.

My concern is with the in your face of people like Gavin Newsome and Gloria Alread (sp) I would say many things might be possible beyond same sex marriage. I believe they and some and I repeat some of the LGBTQ's would use the passage to the legal side so they could teach same sex marriage in schools, and to continue to take children out of class to attend same sex marriages.

Which I think is wrong, I would think it wrong for a heterosexual couple to take a child out of school for their wedding. There are too many weekends and holidays for that to happen. I would be just as upset if a hetero couple put their entire class in a school bus on the taxpayers dime to attend a wedding when the students should be in school learning their studies not attending weddings.
Continued "

jeff wrote on Nov 24, 2008 9:12 AM:

" Jacks_mom,

I see you throwing around many negative comments and that is about it. You still cannot reconcile the inconsistencies with your bible regarding homosexuality. You still cannot give a logical rational answer against homosexuality. It seems to me the truth is that is just makes you feel icky and that is the reason you want to make gay marriage illegal. The problem here is that even banning gay marriage will not remove homosexuals. They will continue to exist, they can still walk in public holding hands and even kiss each other and they can still continue to adopt children. This means the days of bigotry and hatred are coming to an end. In this last vote your numbers decreased, it was practically 50/50. In another 10 years – or possibly sooner – I am confident the tables will turn.

By the way I am not a gay man, I live with a woman. I guess “Paying attention” is not one of your better abilities. Can you please explain to me what a “Google key” is, my keyboard seems to be missing that. "

jeff wrote on Nov 24, 2008 9:12 AM:

" Fred,

Your question: “Science, isn't that the exact study of something, eliminating all possibility for error?”

My answer: No

Get it right and then you can get back to me. "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 24, 2008 5:01 PM:

" JEFF: your comment to me~It seems to me the truth is that is just makes you feel icky and that is the reason you want to make gay marriage illegal. The problem here is that even banning gay marriage will not remove homosexuals. They will continue to exist, they can still walk in public holding hands and even kiss each other ...MY QUESTION TO YOU: what is the difference of Christians speaking their minds on Homosexuality different from the Athiest Protesting even suing to get Gods name removed from our Court rooms, schools, even our currency . because even if Athiest were to get God's name removed from every thing it will not prevent us from Loving, Serving and Believeing in him. does it just make Athiest fill icky PLEASE tell me the difference. . "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 27, 2008 7:47 PM:

" To: jeff wrote on Nov 24, 2008 11:12 AM:

I think not, I'd just as soon you live in that little safe cacoon of denial you have made for yourself. You might be dangerous with a little knowledge in your life. You might hurt yourself with it. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Dec 1, 2008 2:10 AM:

" My question is do not the Police in Los Angeles have one of those armored toys to disperse crowds with and tazer guns and bean bag firing shotguns to disrupt these demonstrators and move them away from the LDS Churchs so the members can attend worship? Why aren't these methods being used to disrupt the illegal worship stoppage?

If this were members of the LDS Church stopping a Gay Parade certainly actions would be taken against them. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Dec 1, 2008 2:30 PM:

" To: Dandre wrote on Dec 1, 2008 2:39 PM:

" Yeah, leave it to you, phred, calling for the gestopo!
When a church sticks its nose into 'politics', especially a 'civil rights' issue, tax exemptions NEED to be questioned, including Catholic priests politicizing their 'pulpit' "

Well when people start acting like vicous dogs they need to be treated as such their dandy dre'. As for the Priests, you a practicing Catholic in good standing with the church professes to silence the Priest at the Pulpit. Were you taken advantage of as an Alter Boy or what there dandy dre"? You seem to have a deep rooted hatred for your own faith. Not surprisingly I might add with the rest of your mentally challenged ways.
Now you want to free the LGBT'Q's and incarcerate the Priests for what speaking the truth? "

Dandre wrote on Dec 8, 2008 8:58 PM:

" To whoever the moderator is- you have turned this into a joke!
This has become the arrogant rantings of a know it all dittohead who KNOWS more about everybody's life than they do! Go look a everyone of your threads.
I will also be canceling my subscription to your paper and would appreciate you not posting anything with my name in it by the wingnuts that have over run these comments. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Dec 10, 2008 3:08 AM:

" One down ten to go! "




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