Alihandero wrote on Nov 15, 2008 5:58 AM:
" Where can the public come see it?
That would be great PR!
And I would like to meet members of the SWAT team - even if they have no ID and black hoodies pulled over their faces.
I wanna sit in the drivers seat! "
aces928 wrote on Nov 15, 2008 8:43 AM:
" Sever said. "We didn't have to pay for any of it."
Okay. How about a photo of this $290,000 vehicle none of my Federal taxes were used to pay for? Thank you. I hope the HPD gets good use out of their new vehicle. "
Jack wrote on Nov 15, 2008 10:34 AM:
" That's exactly what this is. A new toy. Completely and utterly useless in terms of need for Kings County, but super fun for little-boy-officers to play with! "
Joe Friday wrote on Nov 15, 2008 12:34 PM:
" Wow $290,000 for a vehicle that we don't even need. Let's face it folks Hanford is not Baghdad but I'll feel better knowing I'm protected when Al Qaeda arrives in town.
Then there is this...
"The bill, which cost about $290,000, was paid for by a grant through the Governor's Office of Homeland Security," Sever said. "We didn't have to pay for any of it."
Captain Sever, we are taxpayers so unless Arnold Schwarzenegger paid for this out of his own pocket we all paid! With such frivolous spending is it any wonder the State of California is Broke!
Gee I wonder if this is part of the Chin-Sorenson plan to help retain police officers they were talking about during the election? "
Mrs.D wrote on Nov 15, 2008 1:44 PM:
" I saw the Urban Assault Vehicle yesterday; it was broke down on the corner 7th St. and 11th Avenue. All of the occupants had to get out and push it over to the Shell station for a quick fill up!
Just kidding! I did see it at that particular intersection, though. "
what the wrote on Nov 15, 2008 10:57 PM:
" What is your life worth? alot more than 290,000 i am sure. if this vehicle is used to save one is it worth it. yes lets go back to last year, anyone remember the orchard shooing? this guy killed his wife then shot at the swat team. fortunatly none of them were killed. unfortunatly his life ended. could this vehicle have been used to both protect and save life. yes It is not a toy nore a novelty. it is protection for the police and for you. again i ask what is your life worth? yes it is expensive and was paid for by tax dollars in the form of a grant. grants are distributed to those that need. if hanford did not get the grant someone else would. to jack and joe wake up, its not 1940 anymore to alihandero, look at the chest of HPD and you will see the SWAT pin proudly worn by them "
canative wrote on Nov 15, 2008 11:32 PM:
" RIDICULOUS...what are we thinking? Do we really want a society with these machines rolling thru town? Reminds one of Hitler's Germany - where no one is safe. "
Carl.Spackler wrote on Nov 16, 2008 1:14 AM:
" I sometimes think I am living in some kind of alternate reality. "
Alan G wrote on Nov 16, 2008 9:37 AM:
" I say fire that bad boy up, put a big PA on top and blast "Flight Of The Valkyries" while cruising gang territory. That'll scare Joker, Lil' Puppet and the rest of the losers. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 11:28 AM:
" I have a suggestion if this vehicle is so Gosh Darn Good, why don't we put a red ribbon on it and send it to the boys and girls in Iraq or Afghanistan where it is really needed?
I think that is a great idea, You Betcha!
Maybe Sarah could use it in Alaska in case those Russians were ever to get froggy? She could drive those rascalls back into the sea with that contraption.
Do I ever see a purpose for it in Hanford? Not likely unless it is used for over kill. "
what the wrote on Nov 16, 2008 7:22 PM:
" Watchdog, it is so nice to see that you have an opinion on everything. even when you know nothing about what you are talking about, again.
what is your definition of over kill? making the cops safe? citizens that need protection from criminals. it is needed and welcome addition. unless you subscribe to freds thinking. the dont bring a knife to a knife fight like in you day fred. we come to win bring a gun to a knife fight, or yet aBIG gun. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 11:36 AM:
" what the wrote on Nov 16, 2008 7:22 PM:
That is my largest complaint about the Hanford Police Department. You want the biggest and best protection while you hide away from the general public and become disengaged with what's going on in the city you swore to protect and serve.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, back when the cops walked beats and talked with people we had much better policing and service from our department.
Then came air conditioning and windows went up and communication was lost. Now it is further impeded by amor piercing metal between the public and it's officers.
Just like in any relationship when communication is broken down and lost it is doomed and predictably going to fail. So go ahead and divorce yourself from the community and you fail to do your basic duty, that is to protect and serve the citizens, all of the citizens.
Criminals aren't stupid, they will just make sure they bring in their shoulder launched missiles from Iraq and take out your little toy. You place 12 officers lives in jeopardy lose your combat vehicle, all in one shot. "
Proud Dad wrote on Nov 17, 2008 11:40 AM:
" I am surprised that this piece of equipment was referred to as a toy, this is a tool that has huge potential to allievate situations instead of waiting for resources to come in from other cities.
Are we going to refer to the Haz-Mat vehicle that Hanford City acquired a while back as a toy and it isn't necessary? The naysayers would be the first ones to complain if innocent people died and point fingers at Hanford P.D. and say that they didn't do enough to save their loved ones. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 11:43 AM:
" what the wrote on Nov 16, 2008 7:22 PM:
So tell me who gains in that scenario? I would say the crooks 1 cops 0 and the robbery or other crime continues without intervention.
If terrorist attack they will have more than one shoulder launched rocket, so it isn't effective in that regard either, so what do you use it for? Parades and Police Events? That's an expensive low rider if you ask me. How many more cops could have been put on the street throughout the valley on the money spent on one toy, that will rust into oblivion? That thing will probably rust in place and be useless by the time you find a reason to roll it out on a call. Unless you thoughtlessly start using it in every scenario that presents itself. Look at the maintenance that is required to keep the tank in the cemetery acceptable? Yet you say this vehicle you call protection won't cost taxpayers anything. Poppycock, it still needs to be maintained. If you put it on the road it is burning up fuel and taking a chance on breaking it. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 11:51 AM:
" what the wrote on Nov 16, 2008 7:22 PM:
The only reason the Police Chief wanted it was because it was originally purchased with Grant Money. Remember the discussion where Grant Money comes from it isn't deposited in the state checking account by the Grant Ferry. It is our tax money, you say it didn't cost us anything, but it is still our tax money deposited for Grants. So indeed it did cost and I notice in the article that is a fact that is left out, why? Because you don't want to remind people how much grant money was used to purchase that heap of junk. We will probably end up selling it for scrap before we even use it. Anyone who believes this is for safety reasons is a fool. Any criminal will have the sense to have a counter measure in place to deal with such a demonstrative weapon. Unlike your inanimate object that can't think for itself, a crook can. What will be the first purpose determined justifiable to use the thing? Armored vehicles have been disabled in every theatre of war. "
Proud Dad wrote on Nov 17, 2008 4:40 PM:
" For someone that supposedly fought in Vietnam war, you would realize that Crown Vics and Chargers are not exactly bullet proof and do not provide adequate shields. Most of the time you are going to deal with either a distraught or desperate person(s). The bullet(s) will kill the same as a “professional”. Countermeasures? I think you have watched the movie S.W.A.T. one too many times. At least we are going to be more prepared, then trying to turn the police officers into unnecessary vulnerable targets when they are going into a hostile situation. "
Carl.Spackler wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:19 PM:
" It would be nice if the money could be spent on more personnel. Did you know there are only 5 cops on patrol at night in a city of 55,000?
Crime is out of control. Three cars ripped off on my street. Maybe we can park that urban assault vehicle out front of my street and scare away a few crooks. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:27 PM:
" To: Proud Dad wrote on Nov 17, 2008 11:40 AM:
" I am surprised that this piece of equipment was referred to as a toy,"
O.K. Proud Dad, when was the last time Jesse James and the Younger gang road in to take over Hanford. The last time would be the first time, correct? You call me a fear monger and hate monger and war monger and you are the one wanting an armored patrol vehicle to do your dirty deeds.
How many Haz Mat vehicles are there throughout the state and how many TOYS like this are in the Police Departments throughout the states. We carry hazardous materials up and down our streets and cities on a daily basis.
I got news for you if some one like McViegh shows up in Hanford that little armored vehicle isn't gonna stop a bomb made of fertilizer and whatever. You keep and hold your faith in that little hole card and it just might end up being a charbeque grill of honest brave men. Men who had a false sense of security because they relied on this mechanical mechanism to protect them. "
SuziQ wrote on Nov 17, 2008 6:12 PM:
" Grant money is our money and it's going to be spent. Whether it's spent in Hanford or some other city, it's going to be spent. Maybe this piece of equipment is a thing of the future and too big for little minds in small towns. Especially in a discussion like this where they're people who criticize anything the city does. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 7:39 PM:
" To what the, I must assume you were serious by asking for the deffinition so for you and anyone else who didn't understand the term:
Meriam Webster Says:
1 : a destructive capacity greatly exceeding that required for a given target
2 : an excess of something (as a quantity or an action) beyond what is required or suitable for a particular purpose
3 : killing in excess of what is intended or required
There you go class. "
Good Times wrote on Nov 17, 2008 9:13 PM:
" It’s really hard to read everything that some of you bloggers have written, for example this vehicle is a toy and basically a waist to those that serve and protect you on a daily basis. It must be nice to sit behind your computer and use your little key pad to express your opinions while hidden in your safe little home with no threats around you. I bet the first time somebody home evades your house and takes your family hostage, you will be screaming for the cops to come with their little toy. I forgot this is Hanford and nothing happens like that around here. To Watch Dog Fred and your old ideas of walking the beat, look, that was then this is now. HPD wouldn’t get two feet out of their vehicle before they got another call for service to respond to. Since you love old ideas, why don’t you have US soldiers carry some old bolt action rifles over there in Iraq. I had to compare it to the military, it's the only thing you know. Glad I just live here, why protect those who don't protect you. "
rocketman wrote on Nov 17, 2008 11:41 PM:
" "serving search warrants may not always be that dangerous, but all it takes is one person acting crazy for people to get hurt." Now, do you really think this will be used on every search warrant?
"The idea is protection. If an officer is down or a victim is trapped, the SWAT team can roll in with this personnel carrier and retrieve them without putting lives in danger." Now this warrants some thought, but how many times has this happened in Hanford? "Now they can call on us and we can come out to help them." And how much will this joint cooperation cost us in Hanford? "
lt wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:23 AM:
" I would Love to meet Watchdog fred in person. One day Computer warrior we will meet!!! "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 10:26 AM:
" To: SuziQ wrote on Nov 17, 2008 6:12 PM:
Then again maybe it is over kill and some mental midgets can't see that because they are too focused on Spider Man, Robo Cop and the like. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 10:37 AM:
" To: Good Times wrote on Nov 17, 2008 9:13 PM:
You've had this thing for going on a year, how many times have you used it, actually used it, not paraded it around town, but used it to combat crime? ZERO, that's how many. Most psychologists will tell pack rats if you don't use it within a year you don't need it. I have to use a psychiatrist comparison because it is possibly the only thing you might understand. Since you seem so obsessed with how criminal minds work. They couldn't possibly come up with a plan to deal with an armored vehicle, I mean in both world wars they became ineffective. The Hanford Police Department is not the first group to think of using this wonderful little asset. There I go again talking about the military, maybe it is because the military is the only other people who have a false sense of security behind armor plate. I have another deffinition for you: A kinetic energy penetrator (also known as a KE weapon) is a type of ammunition which, like a bullet, does not contain explosives and uses kinetic energy "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 10:39 AM:
" To: Good Times wrote on Nov 17, 2008 9:13 PM:
Since you love old ideas, why don’t you have US soldiers carry some old bolt action rifles over there in Iraq.
For your information they are, they are called snipers, a very valuable tool, one shot one kill is much more threatening than an armoured vehicle might be. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 10:43 AM:
" To: Good Times wrote on Nov 17, 2008 9:13 PM:
You obviously don't know this but after WWII all Sniper units were disbanded. There were no more trained snipers in the United States Services. When Korea stared, an interest in using them because the enemy was sparked again. We had to refer to a french pamphlet to gain any information at all about snipers. All our material was desroyed at the time of the disbanding. We even recruited some allies who still used the sniper in their units to retrain our personnel. So please don't put down the effectiveness of a tool that has been proven effective in every war since the Revoluionary War. Much longer than your baby tank has been in service. Oh can it fire rounds as well? If not we were jipped. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 10:50 AM:
" To: rocketman wrote on Nov 17, 2008 11:41 PM:
Did you use to sell tanks or something, you advertise their use very effectively. My simple argument is a simple shoulder launched rocket or hand grenade can make this thing inoperble for the entire mission you send it on. Do you honestly think bad guys are not gonna take this into consideration if they are gonna hold up in a house somewhere? Furthermore, if they have hostages all they have to do to stop you dead in your tracks is to wound one and send them out to show you they can do that to everyone. Then what, you roll up in this armour protected toy where all the officers are protected and the civilian hostages are not and then what . . . . Do you think the bad guys aren't gonna start offing prisoners and then who have you saved with your valant effort? I see lawsuit written all over your game plan their deputy dog. But if it makes you feel better to have this useless toy more power to you. (Continued) "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 10:57 AM:
" To: rocketman wrote on Nov 17, 2008 11:41 PM:
Yeah, you may get the bad guys but at what loss of civilian life will it come? Sometimes a plan of force isn't the only plan that works Furthermore, if you guys are so good on home invasion then why does it continue to happen. Why didn't the first one you responded to, put all the bad guys out of business. Could it be like me they eat at Ryan's and see all the cops in Hanford there at the same time every night and know the town is wide open from let's say 7:00 to 7:30 p.m.? (not the actual time by the way.) When my cousin was on the PD they had to stagger their Code 7's so someone could cover the city at all times. I guess with a/c that has changed. I see officers all the time jumping on the freeway, so if they have time to do that, why wouldn't they have time to walk a beat? If it's a time element instead of a lack of officers, it's easy to resolve, split up the force. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 11:04 AM:
" To: lt wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:23 AM:
" I would Love to meet Watchdog fred in person. One day Computer warrior we will meet!!! "
That could be arranged. I just get tired of hearing all but the most appropriate excuse as to why policing in this community has gone down hill. You don't have to put the entire force on a walking beat they didn't back then. They split their officers between beats and cars, it worked very effectively. The patrolmen in the car acted as backup for the officers on the street. It worked so well that cities like Los Angeles, San Franciso, Pittsburgh, New York City even used it. Why don't you just admit it and state the officers for whatever reason don't feel safe walking the streets. Now that says a lot about how safe those streets really are, now doesn't it? If it isn't that, it is because they went to work to drive and not walk which means they aren't there for the purpose of serving and protecting the people. So which is it, I wonder? "
Proud Dad wrote on Nov 18, 2008 11:46 AM:
" To WDF
Let’s back up here a minute you stated, “You call me a fear monger and hate monger and war monger” when did I do that? I try to keep my comments on a very neutral basis. I have zero respect for you. You always have to throw the “fact” that you are a vet in everyone’s face and if they don’t agree with you, then they are the worse of the worst liberals.
I hate to drag Blue Falcon into this, but I have the UTMOST respect for him. He is serving the country with pride, but he doesn’t feel the need to keep throwing that in everyone’s face, he doesn’t attack people, respects the word limit and I agree with most of his opinions/comments. "
Proud Dad wrote on Nov 18, 2008 11:48 AM:
" In regards to the grant money, SuziQ is absolutely right. That piece of equipment would be in some other town, probably too far away to be of use to us. Grant money is usually very specific how it is supposed to be used. Are there more immediate needs for the money? Of course, but in this case, I am pretty sure the P.D. didn’t have a choice how the money was going to be spent. This piece of equipment is not going to be used a lot. But when we need it, it is going to be indispensable. Hanford City/King’s County is not the utopia that we would like to think it is. The P.D. is going to be able to have a front row seat to the situation instead of having to try to peek around the bumpers of their Crown Vics. Is it a cure all? No way, but it is another tool that P.D. has at their disposal. Of course it wouldn’t stop the bomb that McVeigh made, but P.D. could have introduced him to the armored rescue vehicle by making an entrance though his front door. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:20 PM:
" To: Proud Dad wrote on Nov 18, 2008 11:46 AM:
Yeah here I go again, just to make you happy, I just pulled out my DD214N and no where on it does it say; must have proud dad's approval. Sorry, you simply don't matter you are correct in your assumption.
Furthermore, I too am proud of my service and I don't use it as you described, I use it for informational purposes an area evidently you jealously cannot recall from because you didn't serve. That in no way makes you less of a citizen, it just makes you a non member of a select club who understand war, armoured vehicles and the like. Tell me what is your experience in operating and using an armoured vehicle. My brother was a Tank Commander in Germany for crying out loud, and we talk. The most profound thing he did was to carry a rifle into a tank which is a big no no and get the barrel bent almost in half. So he broke his own rifle and that isn't the funniest of events he talks about being in the armoured division. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:32 PM:
" To: Proud Dad wrote on Nov 17, 2008 4:40 PM:
" For someone that supposedly fought in Vietnam war,
I am suppose to show you respect when you make comments like these. I'll put my DD214N right next to yours there cowboy Roy. Believe me being a cop isn't the same as being in a war with bombs bursting in air. You don't have to worry about stepping on booby traps that have human fesces spread all over them. You don't have to worry about the nuclear threat 24/7 because honorable people like myself and Blue Falcon make sure you don't. Ask Blue if he doesn't honor my service as much as I honor his, he's a man whom I've met face to face and knows a little comething about serving his country and tradition placed before him. Something you don't know, don't care to know and quite obviously don't respect. If you are a cop your butt should be fired because you don't respect those who wore that uniform before you did. Many well meaning and respectful veterans one and all. (Continued) "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:40 PM:
" To: Proud Dad wrote on Nov 17, 2008 4:40 PM:
Continued
You've had this coming for some time now and I'm just the one to set you straight. Where do you think the tactics from SWAT came from to begin with? Right out of the chapters of Vietnam, Korea and engagements since and before. You ever hear the term firefight, I got your back? Do you think the police invented radios, hand signals and team fighting. In the military they call it a squad. We called our vest flack jackets because many had to dodge more than a simple bullet. Where do you think all the clean uniform, spitt polished shoes and hand salutes, personnel inspections and chain of command came from you unappreciative twit. You claim I consider myself an expert on everything, well so do you only difference is, I've lived it and you haven't. It's called life experiences.
If you knew anything about the military you would know better than to try and conquer and divide Blue Falcon and I. We are brother Veterans, don't make that mistake twice or you will disrespect us both. (Continued) "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:46 PM:
" To: Proud Dad wrote on Nov 17, 2008 4:40 PM:
Continued
Oh and by the way those of you who don't like us so called Vietnam Veterans so much. Then you can park those Chargers and Crown Vics because we paid for them. See how walking down the street appeals to you, if you can't respect what we've given you? The very SWAT tactics fought today were learned by people being killed in combat, training you receive was put in place to save your life by the very people you want to bad mouth on a blog in the paper. Big man, boy you show how brave you really are now don't ya.?
Walk up to that wall in Washington, D. C. and tell those guys you don't believe they served in Vietnam! But you better be careful saying it, if a survivor vet is around There are only two types of Veterans, Dead ones and those who survived. I'm sorry to disappoint you Proud Dad, but we gave all we had when our country called. Can you make that statement? I didn't think so. , , "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:49 PM:
" To: Proud Dad wrote on Nov 17, 2008 4:40 PM:
One more thing before I lose my train of thought, kill a baby or have a flash back. You wanna talk about shows and movies? You might want to tell Melissa, NHG and a few others your opinion on that 200 word thing. Sometimes there are certain people and you may proudly put yourself in that classification, who insult us enough that 200 words doesn't cover the rebuttal.
Now go put your key in your charger or crown vic and begin your very well paid job. Doubt that, compare your salary to $76 every two weeks, which is what I got during my service. Oh and by the way I was on duty 24/7 figure that out by the hour cry baby. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:51 PM:
" To: Proud Dad wrote on Nov 17, 2008 4:40 PM:
One more thing if you have it "UTMOST" you might want to learn how to spell it. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 1:39 PM:
" To: Proud Dad
Like it or not back when I was a kid Hasbro and Matell both called your armoured vehicle a toy. They made millions off of them, but today they all lay in landfills never to be seen again. "
Carl.Spackler wrote on Nov 18, 2008 3:11 PM:
" Fred, I'm starting to get the impression you don't like the new tank... "
Proud Dad wrote on Nov 18, 2008 3:16 PM:
" WDF:
I can sit here and claim that I have done this and that. I have my doubts on what you have claimed that you have done. Yeah, you could have been over there, but you could have also have been support staff and didn't see one minute of fighting. It is pretty funny that you try to correct my spelling with the numerous mistakes that you make on a continuous basis. So keep on attacking, lets keep filling up the blogs with incessant babbling. Alihandro, Jack, Aces, Joe Friday, Mrs D, what the, Carl, canative, Good times, etc, can get their points across in 200 words or less. I look and learn from their viewpoints and state mine. But Watchdog Fred who obviously thinks he is the savior of Hanford has to lock up the blogs with 600-1000+ word essays.
I will say it again, I appreciate Blue Falcon and the veteran’s from the recent wars and I have zero respect for you personally . Call it what you want.
Jackie: My apologies for getting off topic. "
Pete wrote on Nov 18, 2008 4:05 PM:
" You are absolutely right SuziQ. Feddy always has something to say, but I bet he can't tell you what else the money could have been used for. He's one of those people who will go through their entire life without ever saying "I don't know" to any question! "
jfmurrisky wrote on Nov 18, 2008 4:33 PM:
" Well Fred & Carl...Welcome to Hollyford!
Just what we needed a "free" tank...now we all can feel safer and sleep better at night. Carl - kindly recheck your numbers on police on patrol at night...last meeting I attended, they told me three on patrol and 2 supv.'s...sounds good hey?
John Murrisky "
Loanman wrote on Nov 18, 2008 4:53 PM:
" Good point SuzieQ. If it saves just one live in the next 10 years, we will have certainly gotten our money's worth. Some Dogs don't appreciate anything, criticize a lot and then we find out they're not too happy with themselves. "
Skip wrote on Nov 18, 2008 5:45 PM:
" I agree with Carl that this kind of money could be better spent, but if we were told "you can have $290,000.00 (and don't have to pay it back) if you buy this tank", we made out. You have to be a sad puppy to criticize something like this. If it's not used in the next two years we can try to sell it on ebay... "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 7:03 PM:
" It never cease's to amaze me, when people think a Grant is a gift from the Money God's. It isn't it is from our taxes, and yes I have stated how that money would have been better spent. It could have been spent on bringing more officers to this community, to protect and serve. Those who have a heartfelt interest in protecting the community. Not those who want to belly ache about not making enough money, enough protection and so on and so forth. Those brave officers who had the fire fight in Los Angeles over that bank robbery were up against two individuals who were preapred for a fight. Better prepared than the police. Regardless of how you move in or out of a situation you still have to deal with it once you get there. My point is, that vehicle is not the end all answer to saving cops lives. Training, preparedness, experience and loyal and honorable brave behavior is what wins a battle. You want cops prepared for battle send them to Iraq and Afghanistan and let them see it first hand & live it. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 7:09 PM:
" As for what I did or didn't do, guess what sparky it's ten times what you did. You say you honor Blue Falcon for his service but you don't me for mine because I may not have been in the thick of it. Well guess what, if you really knew anything about Blue, he was support personnel in Kuwait, But that doesn't change the honorable time he spent serving his country and this was not his only deployment. So while once again you broadcast your ignorance, by implying their are jobs that aren't important in the military. Let me fill you in the military is one big team when it comes to battle that is why they fight from the land air and sea. It is called strategy and to think one part isn't as important as the other part shows your lack of how a war works. Before all those bombs & ammos could be sent to Vietnam and get there as scheduled some lowly clerk had to type a request for them. Those guys in the field really appreciated him and so should you. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 7:14 PM:
" If you are engaged in a firefight and you need air support to save your hind end and you receive word you can't, because someone forgot to fill out the paperwork does his position then become important to you. When a gunner in the marines needs more ammunition for his machine gun, and finds out it didn't arrive on the naval vessel because the support personnel forgot to load it, are they more important all of a sudden. But you didn't hear of any of this did you. Because it didn't happen because support personnel don't mean much until you need them. Putting down support personnel is like putting down your back up who is taking longer than you think to arrive. You just don't do it, because you don't know what traffic is like on his route. Not working as a team is when you call for that back up and he heard you say he wasn't important so he purposely takes his time. Because you are a big mouth hero who doesn't appreciate anything. I'm trying to put this in terms even you can understand. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 7:22 PM:
" To: Skip wrote on Nov 18, 2008 5:45 PM:
If we were paying our officers $50k a year let's say we could have paid an officer for six years out of that money. That is 12,480 hours of Police work that could have been done. Tell me how many actual hours of time has this relic spent serving the community of Hanford. I don't mean parading it around time, I mean serving a meaningful purpose in supporting our Police Department.
Skip, I've been in charge of vehicles and their maintenance, I know a little bit aobut it. Even if this thing just sits there it has to be maintained, oil, hydrualics, fuel, replacement parts, who in the world do you think pays for that, it is our tax dollars. We get more use out of those two cannons that won't fire in front of the Senior Center than we do that armoured response vehicle. By the way up to what speed will it pursue, what use is it for example against an armoured car at top speed? This is not an answer to problems in Hanford. (continued) "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 7:28 PM:
" To: Skip wrote on Nov 18, 2008 5:45 PM:
(Continued)
I can just see some kid carrying a can of spray paint out running this thing in his keds running down 7th street. Come on, the type of crime requiring this monster doesn't happen here in town. Are you gonna sick this thing on the guy who held up Dominoe's? Will you place it on mall drive to chase down motorists, I thought that is what the motorcycle cops do? I just can't phathom how this rusting relic is gonna make a large impact on the city. All you have done is brought something to town that some criminal is gonna say well I got to do something to put that baby to a test. Before you know it, you are contributing to the problems not solving them. I just feel the money could have been better spent. How much bullet proof glass could you have bought for the Chargers and Crown Vics for $290,000.00 for example if you want to protect the one's who protect and serve? Then you have a fleet safe, not one bucket of bolts. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 7:35 PM:
" All I have tried to do is point out there are better methods of policing than this bohemouth piece of useless metal. It can be taken out in one shot from an experienced combat soldier or practicing terrorist. So is it safe or a false sense of security for 12 brave souls who could be killed instantly, because they were safely tucked away in an armoured vehicle. Please review what the Abrahms Tank did to the Iraqi supplied Russian tanks in the Gulf War and see what a false sense of security will get you? Once again this is overkill and a challenge to anyone who has the knowledge and the ability to take this thing on, which in my mind is asking for trouble. I only say this because with a Naval instillation so close we could be a target of terrorism and if you think this thing is the answer to that kind of problem. They deal with it everyday on there homeland. Look at the number of mamed Americans who thought they were safe in humvees and tanks. Over Kill and false sense of Security. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 7:39 PM:
" To Blue Falcon - I want you to know brother I in no way intended to discount your service. You and you alone know how I feel about you and what you've done for this great country. It's just hard sometimes explaining something to those who already think they know every scenario and in reality don't know squat.
Your relentless, unselfish commitment to the protection and safety of this nation means more to me than five million of those toys. You know I would serve with you in a heart beat if it were possible. But it isn't, do to reasons beyond my control. Once again I salute you my brother and pray for you and yours. Welcome home, Welcome home brave warrior. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 7:42 PM:
" To SuziQ wrote on Nov 17, 2008 6:12 PM:
When they agree to quit doing stupid stuff I'll agree to quit critizing. Fair enough?
You can't even drive that thing through a drive thru for crying out loud. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 7:52 PM:
" O.K., O.K. if you want to supply the Police Department with a bullet proof armoured vehicle to go get their donuts in, who am I to criticize. Maybe John Keller will loan them one of those rocks for it to climb or Valley Toyota could put it on it's big lift so all the little gang members can see what there up against.
Gang Task Force in Kings County sure could have used that kind of money added to it's budget. $290,000.00 wonder how many crimes could have been prevented.
They have an armoured car and they couldn't even keep the thieves from stealing gas out of my truck last summer.
I guess we can look forward to seeing it breakdown in the Christmas Parade this year, have we got enough officers on staff to push it?
Next week it will be on patrol writing tickets to all of you who dare park longer than two hours downtown. Yeah I got nailed on that one too.
Could that be a citizens arrest, stop that vehicle it doesn't have a correctly illuminated license plate light. Busted taillight too, cuff him. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 8:14 PM:
" To; Proud Dad, I wasn't the first one to call this bohemouth piece of metal a toy. Some of the other comments are listed below from the reporter and the police department for your viewing plesure.
"The Hanford Police Department has a new toy."
"The bill, which cost about $290,000, was paid for by a grant through the Governor's Office of Homeland Security," Sever said. "We didn't have to pay for any of it."
Is he kidding or what, this cost us plenty.
"Right now, it is kind of a novelty, so we will find reasons to take it out and practice with it," Sever said, laughing. "But, really, it is a nice piece of equipment and it will really help us out in the future."
Is this not how a kid would describe a new toy? Then you wonder why I called it a toy. Perhaps you should take it up with those who are in agreement with me? I think you might work for one of them? "
Con Carne wrote on Nov 18, 2008 8:45 PM:
" HPD time to put your armor where your mouths are. This oversized SUV needs to be manned up and parked in the Bastille parking lot on Friday and Saturday nights. That's were the action is. "
rl56219 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 8:54 PM:
" The thing that keeps running through my mind is a point that someone made. The criminals will find a way around it. Yes, that is very true and scary. Just google Joseph Palczynski and you will see what happen when an ordinary man took on one of those tanks. I hate to say it, but the armored vehicle did not win and he was not a criminal mastermind. I see this the same way as looking at a drug junkie. Each step is a little further up the scale, getting a little more fire power to one up the last incident. I am more afraid of what the criminals may start packing on a daily basis preparing for coming up against a tank instead of just a person. I hate to say it, but I think they put us in more danger having it in the long run than any good it may have. "
Good Times wrote on Nov 18, 2008 10:35 PM:
" To Watch Dog Fred
Something definitely got to you, I have never seen so many bloggs, over and over. There really is no reason to write back because you would not listen to any of our opinions. You claim to be a Vet, if you really are, trust me, we all appreciate what that group did in the past. The only issue I have with you is that you bash law enforcement so much. Most true Vets, that I know, back law enforcement to the fullest, because they know what it was like to be in danger. Ya, it’s not Iraq over here, but all of us in LE would like to go home at night. I guess HPD officers need to take a round or two for you to finally appreciate what they and all LE officers do. Ya, if you are a Vet, you kept our freedom going back then, have you ever thanked a cop for what freedom you have here, my guess would be no. A lot of Vets don’t get the appreciation they deserve, neither do most cops. We take what we can get, a tank, if it gets us home. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 12:16 AM:
" To: rl56219 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 8:54 PM:
Finally someone who has the same vision and determined nature to see where this hunk of steel could send us flying off some cliff to an eventual conclusion that could be down right nasty. It's good to see that I am not the only sane person who knows what a challenge coin this is to the criminal mind to beat it. It's mere exposure is like a tempting tactical equation to develop the necessary device to take it and it's 12 souls out of commission. Is that the reason for it's exposure and so much public attention, is the Hanford Police Department in essence offering this machine up as a challenge to the local criminals or trying to use it as a scare tactic against them? Either case is like playing catch with a grenade when the pin has already been pulled. Please veiw the road between Kuwait and Iraq on the exodus, to see what happens to burned bodies and burnt steel. When steel reaches a point of boiling there is no human flesh left to burn. Only scortched ash. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 12:24 AM:
" To: Good Times wrote on Nov 18, 2008 10:35 PM:
No you are completely wrong I do respect the uniform. You see having been in the military I learned very early you by orders have to respect the uniform, but the man wearing it has to earn your respect for you to respect him. My cousin who served on the Hanford Police Department certainly earned my respect, Barney Ruch certainly earned my respect as did Al Lea and many other courageous officers who performed their duties in Hanford. This is what meriam webster says about respect: : high or special regard : esteem b: the quality or state of being esteemed cplural : expressions of respect or deference .
I still hold that the uniform should be respected but the man if he's worth his salt will earn the respect do him or not depending on his actions and abilities to carry out the task at hand.
I agree about cops not being respected if they were the LGBTQ's wouldn't be keeping Mormon's out of their Temples in LA and hand cuffing theirselves together at city hall in Fresno. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 12:28 AM:
" To: Good Times wrote on Nov 18, 2008 10:35 PM:
I'm not saying you don't have a thankless job, I know it is exactly that, but if you are a professional as you claim you are, you also knew that going in and accepting the position.
In fact if your board to become a Police Officer could hear a lot of you guys whining like you do from time to time, you never would have made it through the Psych Evaluation. That use to entail treatment worse than what you receive on the street and if you buckled you didn't in the badge on. Which is not to say you don't have a right to complain and gripe but in public it gets a little iffy. Afterall crying to the citizens doesn't change a thing at work for you and you know it. That whole license plate light is out thing, most criminals have already caught on to that and have fixed all their lights. So what now when you see a vehicle with all the lights working, you pull it over? (Continued) "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 12:37 AM:
" To: Good Times wrote on Nov 18, 2008 10:35 PM:
(Continued)
But let's be realistic here for a moment, how many shootings have you been involved. Better yet how many times have you personally had to fire your weapon at a criminal, in the course of your duty in how long a time? How many times have you been shot at?
Every good cop wants to come home at night, but most who do aren't the one's who jump start their hearts with caffiene and other body fuels at the beginning of every shift. They aren't the one cruising the streets pulling innocent women over to get their addresses. They are following the game plan, driving their beat and taking care of business. They aren't sitting off on the side shooting the breeze with KSO or the CHP. You need to talk to them, that's why you have dispatch. Anything else is quite obviously chit chat or worse.
If crime prevention is your first objective why is so much time spent running cars out to burn the carbon out of them. Unleaded fuel isn't suppose to create carbon. "
clyte wrote on Nov 19, 2008 11:04 AM:
" I'm just hoping we can fill it up with 12 people for Buford's "retirement" party. What IS she retiring from anyway? Let's party in it like it's 2009, we'll get some use out of it before we put it on eBay. It'll go right next to Palin's governor jet. Then, we can move on with Hanford that's been stuck for 25 years without forward movement. Hey, we might need that tank afterall. We'll get the city council to get moving or it's cover us, we're going in. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 12:02 PM:
" To: rl56219 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 8:54 PM:
Finally someone with reason, Al Capone started out on the streets of Chicago with a hand gun and finished with a bullet proof automobile and submachine guns. I cite the Valentine's Masacre as an example of crooks getting even with cops. They dressed like them and perpetrated one of the deadliest crimes in Chicago's history. The cops didn't kill Capone an STD did.
"I see this the same way as looking at a drug junkie. Each step is a little further up the scale, getting a little more fire power to one up the last incident. I am more afraid of what the criminals may start packing on a daily basis preparing for coming up against a tank instead of just a person. I hate to say it, but I think they put us in more danger having it in the long run than any good it may have. " "
SuziQ wrote on Nov 19, 2008 2:33 PM:
" WatchDoggy, if you can't understand what Skip was saying, you have no business criticizing anybody! He was saying grant money is given with a specific use in mind. Now, unless you have knowledge that the grant money we got could be use for something besides buying that tank, you owe some apologies (like "sorry I was wrong"). "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 4:04 PM:
" To: Con Carne wrote on Nov 18, 2008 8:45 PM:
" HPD time to put your armor where your mouths are. This oversized SUV needs to be manned up and parked in the Bastille parking lot on Friday and Saturday nights. That's were the action is. "
What, send officers into harms way, are you kidding they have women over there who carry knives and aren't afraid to use them.
But it is amazing the cops can't control the drunks who want to fight, even with a tank. I remember when the old guard was in charge they used a different tank, it was called a drunk tank at the Kings County Jail. They were much more effective too. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 6:22 PM:
" To: SuziQ wrote on Nov 19, 2008 2:33 PM:
I don't owe anyone any apologies, have you been keeping up with all this nonsense? Fresno and Visalia have one too. My point is how many appropriations at 290k were made for these things. What could that grant money been appropriated for that truly would have brought safety to our areas? Like for instance more Policemen, Bullet Proof Glass in the cars, Run on flat tires, more automatic weapons for the Police Department, More Tazers for all Departments, the list can go on and on as long as you want to make it. This grant money was inappropriately used to give Police Departments bragging rights and little else. We have alread discussed the way to take it and the officers inside of it out of commission. The infared is useless without someone to read the information and react to it. Now if you want a vehicle the Isreali force has come out with one that carries it's own self-protection defense system. It can shoot down a shoulder rocket in mid air, it can take planes down. It's really cool. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 6:44 PM:
" To: SuziQ wrote on Nov 19, 2008 2:33 PM:
(continued) All others who do their job while on the job are respected and will make a good career out of it. We have an example of what a Police Officer should be right here in this city and his name is Justin Vallin. I am not singling him out to bring him notoriety, he doesn't need me for that, he is conscientous, caring, and is a leader and many could follow his example. He is well respected, he is a self starter and a prime example of what an officer should be. But first and foremost he takes his family life as serious as he does his job and vice versa. You get one of those and you better promote him and keep him, because they are few and far between these days. He should be commended for a job well done, but would rather be just left to do his job. That ladies and genlemen is who you want to keep your eye on in future years to lead the Department. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 7:31 PM:
" If the Fire Department parks and washes the Kings County Sheriffs RV, then who parks and washes the Tank? "
LT wrote on Nov 19, 2008 7:57 PM:
" Watchdog Fred you said our meeting could me arranged. Name the time and the location and back up you mouth. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 8:13 PM:
" To: LT wrote on Nov 19, 2008 7:57 PM:
" Watchdog Fred you said our meeting could me arranged. Name the time and the location and back up you mouth. "
The person I said that to didn't use an initial he used a full moniker, how do I know you are him. Secondly, I didn't say when, I said it could be arranged. I am not in the habbit of just meeting people blindly off the net, dad gave me more sense than that one sparky! But nice try. You want to try to set something up go through Jackie so she knows your real identity and we might talk about it. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:15 AM:
" To: SuziQ wrote on Nov 19, 2008 2:33 PM
You state Grant Money is given with a specific use in mind. Too bad our taxes aren't collected that way with us saying what they can and can't be spent on. But I guess you'd have very little for some of the politicians favorite pork barrel spending ideas. "
Loanman wrote on Nov 20, 2008 11:03 AM:
" Sorry Fred, Suzi is right, you do owe an apology. You ramble on and on but the fact remains that you can't prove the money could be used for something else, therefore you have no business criticizing the PD or the City on this issue. "
SuziQ wrote on Nov 20, 2008 12:42 PM:
" WatchDoggy, you always talked about being a Vet, yet you're not man enough to apologize when you are wrong. Thank you, Loanman, I'm glad others see it too. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:18 PM:
" To: Loanman wrote on Nov 20, 2008 11:03 AM:
I disagree with you, if the tonka toys weren't the prime interest in this giveaway government program. Cops on Welfare, then the money could have been spent for another cause in another manner that truly would have brought protection to you and I as citizens.
Do they need this thing to supress Charles Manson, I believe he is already locked up and has been serving his time for many years now.
They've never captured the Zodiac Killer, perhaps that might be of use, in the Bay Area?
I still say it is a waste of taxpayer money, overkill and provides a false sense of security to the Hanford Police Department and it's officers. I invite you all to this site: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYa30t2la_E
The officer did everything he could to direct it to a side street and couldn't control it. Just be greatful no one was in the cars that were wrecked by accident.
There was just an election do you wanna bet your next vote this could never happen in Hanford? I could just see that lawsuit; against the Heat. "
X111 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:37 PM:
" To Watchdog Fred:
For all your bluster about “People think a grant is a gift from God,” you seem to know very little about how they work. Yes, a grant is formed from taxpayer money. NO, it could not have been used to “bring on more officers.” Whenever a grant is formed, there are very specific rules about its use that go along with it. They didn’t just throw this money at the Police Department and say, “Here! Use it on whatever!” and then, someone just decided to buy an armored car with it. The grant would have specified EXACTLY what it could be used for, the department would have to APPLY FOR IT, then it would be issued, earmarked for THAT SPECIFIC USE and that ALONE. "
X111 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:41 PM:
" To Watchdog Fred:
I like that you've gone from bashing the police department to complaining that "oh, the money could have been better used elsewhere." So, now, I guess the police department isn't at fault, as much as the state Department of Homeland Security, then, eh? Guess you owe Hanford PD an apology. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:42 PM:
" To: Loanman wrote on Nov 20, 2008 11:03 AM:
This is all masked in the name of the protection of Hanford's citizens. When they need this thing to solve their problems we as citizens won't need to worry. Society will have already dropped off the scale of humanity and into the cavernous venue to hell. Anyone, perpetrating a crime severe enough to hunt them down with this machine won't care it is coming, don't you get that?
They in fact with all the hoopla and publicity this thing has gotten will probably be sitting in a fortress waiting for it to knock on the door. Perhaps with land mines, tear gas, masks, full armor protection with grenades, phosperous at that and God knows what else. Criminals have been known to purchase LAWS rockets, ak47's, tanks, all manner of weaponry.
Here's a sound bite for people who remember this event: Agents Caused Davidian Deaths, Waco Jury Told
They used armored vehicles in this case too. "
Transplant wrote on Nov 20, 2008 7:58 PM:
" Watchdog, you said "You've had this thing for going on a year, how many times have you used it, actually used it, not paraded it around town, but used it to combat crime? " But if you read the article, it says the vehicle only arrived on Wednesday. Now, I've long since quit expecting you to EVER admit you were wrong about something, so I don't expect you to admit it now. I also doubt that you will admit it in the future if this vehicle is used and does save lives. At least give it a chance.
And it doesn't matter what the grant money COULD have been used for. What matters is what they would ALLOW it to be used for. I can think of a whole lot of things I'd like to see for $290,000 but that doesn't count in applying for a grant. I'm glad we have it here. And I hope we never NEED to use it. But if we do, and it helps save one life, it is worth it. You can't see the future, but you sure spout off like you can. "
Big John wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:22 PM:
" I remember when I was in 3rd grade.
We had a boy in class who was universally disliked. If the rest of the class spoke quietly, he’d yell. If the teacher told him to return to his seat and behave, he’d start running in circles. Quiet study time became a riot. He was so desperate for attention that he’d do anything to achieve it. He couldn’t understand what it took to become popular, or to be loved, so he lashed out. It seems that bad attention was better than no attention at all. It was simply sad.
What I’ve learned is some people grow older without ever growing up.
Big John "
rocketman wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:36 PM:
" Watchdog, while you are having Jackie arrange your meetings, ask her to limit the number of responses a reader can submit, you have 43 of the 78 responses. Count the responses your verbiose and there may be less than 10 actual responses. Stop wasting our time! You responded to my response and I can not even tell what you are talking about. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 21, 2008 12:39 AM:
" To: X111 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:37 PM:
Why can't you get past the grant being already established and back up to the $290,000,000.00 prior to it being ear marked and then proceed with other ideas in mind for spending that same money. You can't get passed the idea this is an inane use of tax dollars on something that will probably rust before it even is used for the purpose it was designed in a little town like Hanford and Visalia.
When cops have to patrol the streets in armored vehicles you and I don't stand a chance. That is what I am trying to tell you. As a special use for the SWAT team how many opportunities will they have of using it.
Once again aside from the normal cost to purchasing it, it didn't come with a maintenance free service contract. It has to be serviced and maintained at an added cost to the Police Deparment and in turn to the tax payers of the city of Hanford. It will be operated in training exercises which will cause wear and tear on parts. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 21, 2008 12:47 AM:
" To: .Transplant wrote on Nov 20, 2008 7:58 PM:
That truly indicates your visionary capabilities some men who fortold the future by revealing the past. I don't claim to be one, but sometimes if you ride a bicycle more than someone else you can do things on it and see things about about that they can't.
The vehicle has been talked about for ions, if it just arrived it sat somewhere rusting before it got here. Rust doesn't always begin on the outside and work in sometimes it works from the inside out. Look at some older automobiles and you'll see this is very evident.
Furthermore, your comments are not directed for uses that make this vehicle worth maintaining. You spout off if it saves one life, it will be worth it. Like at Branch Dividian where these things were used and started a fire that killed everyone inside. Is that the kind of use that would save so many lives? Those were being operated by professional Army Soldiers who had been properly trained and outfitted as well. A prime example of overkill, if I ever witnessed one. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 21, 2008 12:56 AM:
" To: .X111 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:41 PM:
I am not bashing anything, I am simply playing devil's advocate and pointing many drawbacks I see to having this contraption involved in law enforcement in this city.
What's next we build a few Robo Cops and let them patrol the streets? Build that ridiculous Robot that resembled an erector set in Robo Cop II and then have the real Robo Cop stand up and defeat it. This isn't the movies this is real life, people bleed and die for real. They don't shoot a take and die and then bounce up and move on to the next scene.
It's one thing to concern yourself with the safety of Police, but it is the job of the Police to protect and serve placing the civilian population before their own lives. That is the job of the Police and it has been since the beginning of time.
I still say the right criminal minds will outsmart the use of this thing in no time. According to military reports they are hard to control at top speed, and have had problems with failed brakes.. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 21, 2008 1:03 AM:
" To: Transplant wrote on Nov 20, 2008 7:58 PM:
Ten tons rolling down the street at top speed meet you and your family in an intersection who survives?
Ten tons goes off into a freshly plowed cotton field in the dead of winter chasing a four wheel drive pickup just after it rains, who makes it any further than of the road?
Ten tons of armored vehicle racing to a crime scene and the brakes fail, now what?
Ten tons of armored vehicle racing to a crime scene at top speed and the driver loses control, who survives?
Ten tons of armored vehicle which has a history of rolling over in tight turn situations, who survives?
Ten tons rolls over and all inside sucumb do to the fuel inhilation problems that still haven't been corrected.
Read up the information is out there, all you have to do is look for it, instead of accepting everything at face value on how effective and wonderful the new toy is for Hanford.
Just google armoured vehicle accidents and see what you learn about it. "
Pete wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:59 AM:
" Good post Transplant. Fred, it's a yes or no answer not if these, if that. If the money could be used for just anything, I will criticize with you. If the money HAD TO BE USED for the tank, you owe an apology for criticizing. YES OR NO! "
Alan G wrote on Nov 21, 2008 1:28 PM:
" You make a great point, Transplant. So many comments are focused on better uses for the money, but posters forget that there was no choice in how it was spent.
I also see this recurring theme of how it won't hold off terrorists with rocket launchers. Yeah, right! Like they're coming to this little ville to steal bull semen. Has anyone read the police logs to see what kind of ding-a-lings are arrrested around here?
This is a stand-off vehicle. I can see it being used while some meth'd out freak starts shooting at police while they're trying to serve a warrant or something.
It's not like Hanford has sophisticated criminals that tunnel through walls to rob banks or steal art. They all got degrees and moved to Europe to steal master works. Nope, Hanford is pretty much stuck with garden variety, small town 7/11 robbers and catalytic converter thieves and the occasional high-speed pursuit with shots fired. That and the occasional idiot ex-spouse who get's drunk and holds his ex-wife hostage. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 21, 2008 2:55 PM:
" To: Transplant wrote on Nov 20, 2008 7:58 PM:
For some reason my response to your comments didn't make it thru. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 21, 2008 3:36 PM:
" Alan G wrote on Nov 21, 2008 1:28 PM:
You are absolutely correct this could never happen, no terrorist would ever want to attack Hanford, Lemoore or even the Lemoore Naval Air Station. Yet the Lemoore Naval Air Station and all military bases train for exactly that type of scenario and have for decades. I guess they are wasting their time as well, right Alan.
LNAS is where all the pilot training takes place, it is where all the newest and top of the line simulators are located. It is a platform for training the Air Force part of the Navy for the entire fleet on the West Coast. But you think it couldn't possibly be a target. Go back to making movies, security and terrorism aren't in your line of work.
The people of New York City scoffed when the terrorist made their failed attempt to blow up those buildings. But no one was scoffing the day those two yet liners crashed into each building respectively, were they? Never say never Alan, there was a terrorist arrested in Stockton who owned ice cream trucks not long ago. Stockton! "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 21, 2008 3:44 PM:
" To: Pete wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:59 AM:
I don't owe you an apology. Any criminal who would attempt to go up against any such device as an armored vehicle would be prepared to deal with it. Otherwise, it is simply overkill, you heard the scenario's Alan G laid down, only one even came close to qualifying for it's use.
You get a hostage situation and you rush it with this armored car and all you are gonna gain is a bunch of dead hostages. Let's say 50 people died as a result of the use of this thing, then would it have been worth it's price? Who's to say you are gonna have one crook in this scenario, their are still gangs who rob and take hostages you know?
That LA bank robbery, those guys had full body armor and the cops couldn't take them down. The crooks had the ak-47's and armor plates covering everything but their heads, the cops finally got one and the other took his own life. If they crash into a situaiton like that, it's still gonna mean a firefight. (Continued ) "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 21, 2008 3:51 PM:
" To: Pete wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:59 AM:
(Continued) Most large hostage situations occur in like bank buildings with maybe two entrances how hard is it to cover two spots in an entire building?
For you guys to think that the Alqueda and Talliban are the only one's with shoulder launched rockets are amazingly naive. They are available to anyone on the black market with the price to pay for them.
It doesn't even have to be a rocket, if they are clever enough to do something and know the main routes to their location all they have to do is make simple IED's with cell phone firing capability. The Alqueda are doing it everyday in many places in Iraq. You get enough plastique expolosives and anything can be blown up, armor or not. When you group your entire SWAT team in an armored vehicle and they and the vehicle are taken out, who do you send after the bad guys? SWAT is suppose to be the front line of defense and your best officers, now they are out of it, who comes to the rescue now? "
Carl.Spackler wrote on Nov 21, 2008 5:12 PM:
" Transplant: Way to go, your response will trigger a 2,000 word WDF essay on the tank with a few detours on Chin, Obama and the plunge. Thanks! "
Big John wrote on Nov 21, 2008 6:29 PM:
" In case any of you we're confused by my previous post - WDF wasn't any different in the 3rd grade.
Big John "
Transplant wrote on Nov 21, 2008 8:28 PM:
" Carl, you're welcome (although I suspect that thanks was said with resignation). It was something I fully anticipated. He said his response didn't come thru but since several did I image we have been spared a little! I always hesitate to try and correct WDF on something because he doesn't accept it as constructive - he takes it as criticism. That's why it's hard for him to learn. My daddy always taught me it was hard to hear with your mouth open. :)
WDF, I've been around at least as long as you have and one thing I've learned is that no matter how many scenarios you plan in your mind, what happens is usually the one you DIDN'T plan for. So you plan for the worst and hope for the best. And try to look for the positive in life instead of all the negatives. It keeps you, and those around you, happier. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 22, 2008 4:38 AM:
" Big John wrote on Nov 21, 2008 6:29 PM:
You imply you knew me in the third grade, did I beat you in tether ball and you never got over it or what? Or was it baseball, football, hop scotch or did I steal your girlfriend away? You quite obviously have a grudge if you did in fact know me then. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 22, 2008 4:49 AM:
" Transplant wrote on Nov 21, 2008 8:28 PM:
Forgive me for being a little suspicous of someone who claims to have been around as long as I have yet calls himself transplant. Were you grown in the east and then transferred like a potted plant to the west?
Point to one instance in which a police force has used this specific armored car to save lives. But if you actually would take time to google armored vehicles and accidents you'll be amazed what you find.
They have killed eleven year old Korean girls who were merely walking down the streets in Korea. They have had the brakes fail and gone out of control due to roll overs. Your life saver might hold it's title if it didn't have so many deaths involved with it.
Do the research then let's talk. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 22, 2008 5:06 AM:
" To: what the wrote on Nov 21, 2008 10:47 PM:
" watch dog, seems you are so against the thought of armor for protection, why dont you tell us, instead of finding fault, what will work against an armed suspect. re read the articel, the vehicle is just that, a vehicle to safely transport swat. the swat guys will still do the same job they have always done, only safer. but again, how would you handle a bank robber? walk away like a coward?
I'm glad you brought this up, no I wouldn't walk away, I'd do what the book says to do. I'd have trained people who take courses and are very qualified to negotiate with the robber, I wouldn't rush in with this machine with guns a blazing and have all the hostages get killed. I believe they are even called Hostage Negotiators if I'm not wrong. I would exercise and use every possible scenario available to keep the body count down and to resolve the problem with no one getting injured. You see my ego, doesn't call for actions that cause "death by stupidity" as some favor. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 22, 2008 5:15 AM:
" To: what the wrote on Nov 21, 2008 10:47 PM:
My suggestion was the money could have been spent to put bullet proof glass in all the patrol vehicles, not just those for the SWAT team. Why not protect all who serve us, rather than an elite twelve or so? Secondly, with your anxious manner in which to try out this new toy and roll up with guns a blazing, I certainly hope you are not the SWAT Commander. Thirdly, if you are I guess the hostages should make sure they are insured to the maximum for their families sake.
Fourth most SWAT teams have shooters who must locate away from the direct crime scene to target the bad guys, they are called snipers, are they not? Fourth, if on their way to getting their safely they are blown up, you've not accomplished your original goal and that was my main point in this scenario. For instance and I refer again to Vietnam in guerilla fighting, the tanks and armored cars were useless. Choppers were much more effective than tanks for many reasons. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 22, 2008 5:26 AM:
" To: what the wrote on Nov 21, 2008 10:47 PM:
My problem with this entire scenario is you all act like this thing is gonna roll up in front of a crime scene the bad guys are gonna give up and the machine is gonna cuff them and stuff them, end of story. Anyone involved in Police work knows it isn't that simple. Anyone in Police work knows if the bad guys warrant the use of this vehicle this isn't gonna be resolved that quickly and easily.
In all hostage situations there is a give and take negotiation that usually takes place and is the most effective manner in which to resolve a bad situation.
If you kill everyone of the bad guys but kill any hostages or civilians, do you declare that collateral damage and except that practice? If you do there was a young LT in the army convicted of murder for that very same action and when the dust settled there wasn't even any bad guys there.
You sound like Sheriff Taylor giving Barnie permission to use his bullet for the first time. "
what the wrote on Nov 22, 2008 10:09 PM:
" Know all wdf, again i say read the article, if this is beyond you, have some one read it to you. it is for transportation. where does it say that this vehicle will rush in and kill hostages? you seem to know alot about police work, what do you do besides proclaim your knowledge on all matters? i must of missed that snipers, hostage negotiators and common sense are gone because of the vehicle, guns blazing? it is just a armored vehicle, not a tank, there are no guns, just safety for those that will use it. and the citizens that the swat team will resque, that is all. the vehicle will kill everybody? how is that? oh yea the bad brakes. must be a brake guy? i laugh because you remind me of chicken little with your posts..........the sky is falling i challange you to have a positive post "
Proud Dad wrote on Nov 23, 2008 12:04 PM:
" WDFraud writes, “Putting down support personnel is like putting down your back up who is taking longer than you think to arrive.” I wasn’t putting support staff down. I was putting you down. I do not respect posers.
WDF writes, “For instance and I refer again to Vietnam in guerilla fighting, the tanks and armored cars were useless. Choppers were much more effective than tanks for many reasons.” You are talking about two completely different pieces of equipment. Like a hammer and a tape measure for a carpenter, 2 different purposes, but they are tools to get the whole job done. Speaking of maintenance costs like you always do, a helicopter is cost prohibitive for a small city government. "
Proud Dad wrote on Nov 23, 2008 12:05 PM:
" WDF writes, “My suggestion was the money could have been spent to put bullet proof glass in all the patrol vehicles” That would help, but you also stated “Any criminal who would attempt to go up against any such device as an armored vehicle would be prepared to deal with it.” So with your thinking, the criminal would figure out to aim the gun lower and the slug is going right through the sheet metal on the door, yup that bulletproof glass is going to be real helpful.
WDF writes, “But if you actually would take time to google armored vehicles and accidents you'll be amazed what you find.” Have you ever googled police and fire engine accidents?
I trust the P.D. to make the right decision when and where to roll it out. Risk vs. Gain. I am sure they are not going to throw the whole swat team in the armored vehicle. I am confident they are going to train with it and figure out what it can or cannot do. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 23, 2008 6:15 PM:
" To: what the wrote on Nov 22, 2008 10:09 PM
To: Proud Dad wrote on Nov 23, 2008 12:04 PM:
Alias: Andy and Barn from Mayberry
You may find this real hard to understand, but the military is where the SWAT training came from. They also trained people and I was one of those for crowd control, rioting and terrorism even back in the 1970's. When Vietnam was still winding down because they never knew when demonstrators or terrorist might try to come on the facilities. We weren't simply relying on the local Police and Sheriffs to maintain the crowds should they come. Just like the Police and Sheriff lays down differenct scenario's in their training they learned that from the military. In fact in 1960 there were no organized SWAT teams in California. They began in 1967, and took on the name of Vietnam Special Forces training as Special Weapons And Tactics which is what the initials stand for when spelled out. Of course the two of you wouldn't know anything about it's origination as history and such don't matter much. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 23, 2008 6:38 PM:
" To: what the wrote on Nov 22, 2008 10:09 PM
To: Proud Dad wrote on Nov 23, 2008 12:04 PM:
Alias: Andy and Barn from Mayberry
Perhaps you should have read all the article and not just my posts: "As officers approach a potential situation, a roof-mounted turret can be raised to give a marksman a 360-degree view while remaining effectively shielded."
The SWAT team is armed with rifles and guns correct: "There are several ports around the vehicle where you can point a gun or a Taser out," Sever said."
I wonder if a good shot could shoot through those ports as well as under the bullet proof glass on a Police Car? By the way if the upper body of the Policeman is protected is it not a viable notion that a life threatening wound may not be sustained?
You both offer wonderful happy endings to an ugly situation but forget that SWAT has control of it's members but who controls the crooks on the other side? They may not be just willing to lay down their weapons. The LA bank robbers certainly weren't. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 23, 2008 6:45 PM:
" To: Proud Dad wrote on Nov 23, 2008 12:04 PM:
Alias: Andy
You make my point exactly in this next remark, who was operating those vehicles that were involved in those accidents? A 5,000# car isn't like being hit by a 10,000 # armored vehicle.
WDF writes, “But if you actually would take time to google armored vehicles and accidents you'll be amazed what you find.” Have you ever googled police and fire engine accidents?
Furthermore, do you think that Iraqi's are the only one's who can figure out how to wire an IED to a cell phone?
Here is a classic line from you: I trust the P.D. to make the right decision when and where to roll it out. Risk vs. Gain. I am sure they are not going to throw the whole swat team in the armored vehicle. I am confident they are going to train with it and figure out what it can or cannot do. "
I'll answer that with a paste from above: this vehicle can safely transport up to 12 officers to and from even the most dangerous of situations. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 23, 2008 6:47 PM:
" To: Proud Dad wrote on Nov 23, 2008 12:04 PM:
Alias: Andy
I can't believe that you would put me down with a suggestion to save the lives of all officers. How much protection do they have with the stock windshields they now have. None! How easy would a head shot be, as simple as pulling the trigger. So don't criticize me for wanting to protect all our officers when you are o.k. spending $290k protecting an elite few. "
Proud Dad wrote on Nov 26, 2008 11:24 AM:
" WDF writes...
I'll answer that with a paste from above: this vehicle can safely transport up to 12 officers to and from even the most dangerous of situations.
up to up to up to up to up to up to up to up to
Once again it will be the judgment of the commanding officer to decide how many officers (UP TO 12) to put into the ARV.
WDF writes: You make my point exactly in this next remark, who was operating those vehicles that were involved in those accidents? A 5,000# car isn't like being hit by a 10,000 # armored vehicle.
Have you weighed a fire engine lately? I am sure they weigh more then 10,000 pounds.... "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 26, 2008 4:30 PM:
" To: Proud Dad wrote on Nov 26, 2008 11:24 AM:
How many fire engines and such does the city and county have to lose vs one I repeat (1) armored vehicle and whoever is inside of it at the time. Not to mention civiian lives, you keep leaving those out of your equations, I wonder why that is, are you a cop Andy? "
what the wrote on Nov 27, 2008 7:07 PM:
" wdf, your last comment doesnt make any sense. are there only 12 swat guys? this is my last post on this matter but i will not matter. wdf will go on and on and on.......... bottom line they have a great resource for the whole county and state, get over it, they are not giving it back so your opinion means nada. nothing will please fred, except his keyboard and rants "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 29, 2008 8:20 PM:
" what the wrote on Nov 27, 2008 7:07 PM:
So I guess you as a new blogger show up and I'm not entitled to an opinion any longer. I don't think that is how this works what the.
Perhaps if you weren't so domatic in your own opinions and lacked the name calling and rhetoric I wouldn't have to send so many posts. But then if you look this wasn't all about you or me, I was simply responding to several bloggers on this issue as I usually do on many blogs.
Happy disgruntledness ba hum bug! "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 30, 2008 1:08 PM:
" To: what the wrote on Nov 27, 2008 7:07 PM:
I thought you knew what you were talking about, you mean you don't know how many swat team members Hanford has in it's tight knit organization. You fight for their toy but don't know how many are there to take advantage of it for potential rescue or cover. How amazing is that, you don't know how many or who they are but this is the best thing since sliced bread.
First accident involving it, I'll be sure and remind you of your position what the? "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Dec 6, 2008 2:58 AM:
" Have they used it in a knife fight at the Bastille and Sky Box Parking Lot yet? "
what the wrote on Dec 11, 2008 11:49 PM:
" why would it be used for that? i guess you belive it will solve crime. go back and read, it is a vehicle they have it they will use it(for its intended use) get over it "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Dec 12, 2008 12:54 PM:
" To: what the wrote on Dec 11, 2008 11:49 PM:
Well you speak as if this is the catch all savior of the Police Department and I sm simply taking acception to that promise. It is exactly that and if you do your homework it is a accident waiting to happen and when it does it is gonna cause a major lawsuit. I can see a defense team already making their case against it's inhumane use and winning big dollars from the City of Hanford. Then there is the ac
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