" Here is another case of someone who does not actually live here telling us WHAT to do and HOW to do it and NOT to do it.

And under the quasi-noble guise of ‘environmental racism' too!

A recent report from BERKLEY says this:

"Bradley (the letter's author) has been active in many other social justice issues since a teenager, including organizing on anti-war, tenants rights, affirmative active, anti-racism and other community and justice issues."

(Source: http://berkeleyeco.org/pipermail/eco_berkeleyeco.org/2004-November/000037.html)

Liberal progressives just love to run contrary to the legal will of the people whenever they can. "

" Much to Alihandro's chagrin, it's groups like these which have kept CA safer and cleaner to live. Is every cause just - I can't say, but it must be taken one issue at a time. What's important for some may not be so for others. But, without support and in many cases, just cause, then these organizations would cease to exist.

Anytime profit takes precedence over human life then motives and alternatives should be evaluated. And, there's not one person who can convince me that profit/money doesn't inspire greed in some. "

" Alihandero: I find it interesting you failed to post on the same subject written by Mares-Alatorre, a Kettleman City resident and member of People for Clean Air & Water of Kettleman City. (Nov. 15, 2008). Do you think people living in Kettleman may need help in getting the word out about their plight? People like Angel and Erin Brockovich help.You seem quite able to speak your mind, research issues and you'd be the first person at WM's front door with your attorney if your children or wife were at risk of illness or unsafe environment. Residents in Kettleman don't have money to hire attorneys to protect their families. Referred to as environmental racism needing enviromental justice. No one with means to fight so WM builds a community building, bbq a few hotdogs, acts like they care but no Latino residents sit on the oversite committee, only some former county employee. Racism can appear in many forms. These days, large corporations prey on poorer areas with less resistance so they can reach their ultimate goal. Making $$. Those WM corp. giants don't live atop that hill, do they? Aren't they (WM) outoftowners telling us what to do also? "

" Hey "jasper,"

Yes, I did comment on these out-of-town so-called public activist groups on the Kettleman situation last year. Apparently you didn't read them and I do not recognize your current moniker from those days so you perhaps were not around as "jasper" then.

They are making it a racial issue and are playing the minority-disadvantaged-sympathy card to prevent any progress on this matter.

I guess you believe, "jasper," that this facility and its expansion will not safely treat waste and will spew poisonous chemicals into the Latino community to oppress them further?

So we are now a County of oppressors of the Latino community?

Say what you really mean, in plain language, "jasper."

Tell us what the facts of this ‘oppression' actually are if you are able to do so. You could always ask "Deb" for help. "

" In response to: Alihandero wrote on Nov 22, 2008 5:58 PM:
Free archival search, couldn't find any posts from "Alihandero" on this topic for the last 2 years. I did find a lot of Oracle and Devil's Advocate spouting much of the same in an article on Greenaction.
I find it disingenuous of you to state otherwise. You imply I made statements of "oppression". Wrong again. An O'Reilly spin, can't form an argument, and lack knowledge of the subject matter.
FYI: United Church of Christ website with information on environmental racism and environmental justice. Bone up on more than Bradley Angel and Greenaction, you might have some understanding of what’s really going on in Kettleman City.
http://www.ejnet.org/ej/
Try to wrap your “pinhead” brain around this article Ali: http://www.ejnet.org/ej/wmra.html
WM is a "pirate" of a valuable commodity "cheap land with poor people, not likely to be voters nearby". I don't care for the manner you attack those that disagree with you. O'Reilly, you're not, this forum is not called "Alihandero". "

" Jasper part 2: Here's some interesting stuff from the article I directed Alihandero to, excerpts from the United Church of Christ, Waste Management and Risk Assessment: Environmental Discrimination through Regulation: Waste Management and Social Discrimination
Just who is being targeted for new waste repositories? A 1984 report contracted by the California Waste Management Board to identify the characteristics of communities least likely to resist the siting of waste incineration facilities offers a clue. Demonstrating that siting is ninety-nine percent politics and, at best, one percent science, Cerrell Associates identified the ideal community for locating these noxious facilities. In California, with its large Hispanic population, this would be rural and Republican, with a blue-collar work force engaged with resource extraction or heavy polluting industry and a population that is non-native English-speaking, low-income, with very limited formal education, and preferably Catholic (Cerrell Associates, Inc., 1984).
Continued... "

" Jasper part 3: Continued: excerpts Waste Management and Risk Assessment: Environmental Discrimination through Regulation; Waste Management and Social Discrimination: ...

"When reduced to the essential class and race implications of this process, the report could have served as a blueprint for project developers and for the state and federal regulatory agencies charged with facility siting and regulation, given the then-existing geography of hazardous and solid waste facility location. Indeed, a 1983 study by the U.S. General Accounting Office demonstrated that a majority of large commercial hazardous waste landfills in the Southeast already were located in rural low-income communities of color, for this region, African American. (U.S. GAO, 1983). The GAO observation was reaffirmed four years later by the landmark UCC study, which noted that three out of five Black and Hispanic residents in the United States lived in communities with one or more uncontrolled toxic chemical dumps--a social concentration, according to the report, that was virtually impossible to achieve merely by chance (United Church of Christ Commission for Racial Justice, 1987)." Website http://www.ejnet.org/ej/wmra.html "

" Wow - Alihandro, unlike you, I'm not an expert on each and every issue. But, I do know, through historical accounts that those without means are usually the first to be taken advantage of, given enough incentive - like, ummmm, money.


What exactly in this instance is the legal will of the people, Alihandro - from your perspective of course. "

" Hey Deb.....I suppose the same thing could be said for Prop 8. 51% voted yes to keep Ca. "safer & cleaner." "

" B. wrote on Nov 24, 2008 12:57 PM:
" Hey Deb.....I suppose the same thing could be said for Prop 8. 51% voted yes to keep Ca. "safer & cleaner."

Talk about toxic waste - in this instance toxic waste and toxic opinions are equally as bad. "

" @ "jasper,"

It sounds like you are one of the founding members of H.E.A.T. the way you are "experting" this topic right back in my face!

Good for you.

And then you say this:

"I did find a lot of Oracle and Devil's Advocate spouting much of the same in an article on Reenaction. I find it disingenuous of you to state otherwise."

I used a different moniker last year "jasper" and you probably don't know that as you weren't around these posts then.

Stalking my online moniker for other past comments I made is a bit creepy, "jasper," and that's exactly why I believe you are attacking me personally and not the issues at hand. And coupled with the fact I changed my moniker when online registration became mandatory, you have no basis in calling me out on what you obviously lack knowledge on.

Personal attacks are against the Sentinel's online rules of the road and are not allowed, plus, they are downright rude.

Shame on you. "

" At the church based web site "jasper" sent me to, allow me to present the factual title of its home page:

"Environmental Justice / Environmental Racism"
Racism is the intentional or unintentional use of power to isolate, separate and exploit others. . . Racism is more than just a personal attitude; it is the institutionalized form of the attitude. -National Council of Churches Racial Justice Working Group"

Sounds like this issue has already been decided from the title alone.

So now does "jasper," with "Deb" chiming in from the background, expect us to believe that the various county, state, and federal laws that are being followed in Kettleman City waste management area are really plots to racially target and poison people of color? Hispanics only? Poor people? People who live in an rural agricultural area with sprayed pesticides?

What does the liberal California State Supreme Court say about this obvious travesty of justice? Or are they too busy with the homosexual marriage issue to make a ruling on this obvious governmental ‘jihad' against Hispanics in Kettleman City? "

" To: jasper wrote on Nov 22, 2008 10:56 PM: I don't know about anyone else but I can voutch for Alihandero on the Waste Management Problems, in fact he and I had several back and forth discussions on it. So if you can't find it on him or me perhaps the archive could be at fault. Also perhaps you might want to consider to give Alihandero an apology for the pinhead comment as well, there horse poop breath. You were named right Jasper suits you. "

" Alihandero wrote on Nov 22, 2008 5:58 PM:
Alihandero (sic) just commenting on an archival search. If it's creepy, gee whiz, didn't mean to search your past.
You search the internet. Why question when other do? Do you possess special powers and abilities to form opinions? When a reasonable person opines using empirical evidence you become defensive and attack. No need if you possess ability to form an argument.
You query: (Do you) "expect us to believe that the various county, state, and federal laws that are being followed in Kettleman City waste management area are really plots to racially target and poison people of color? Hispanics only? Poor people? People who live in an rural agricultural area with sprayed pesticides?"
Read it. GAO and Cal. Waste Mgmt. Board, Cerrell Assoc., Inc., (Feds. and State).
Read any of the links or is it horse-poop?
Feds. and State recognize/document environmental racism/justice, when will you? I know, NIMBY. Those in Kettleman are NIMBYs with reason.
RE: H.E.A.T. No, but I support their cause. Formerly Alejandero? too creepy to ask? "

" Alihandro - Wow - who woulda thunk - it's "bit creepy" for someone to look at your past posts via google or the sentinel search but it's ok and fully justified to do so when someone reads an opinion of say, Bill Shawhan? You are simply a dichotomy.

There are justifications in our world, in our nation, in our state and within this county to reflect that both persons and business with financial motives do and in fact have (you were given examples) taken advantage of those who are less educated, less financially stable and yes, because of the those two things, traced to race.

Is it "always" done with race in mind? Probably not, (I tend to stay away from conspiracy theories) but when the goal is to profit, it's much easier to get things done when the other two factors - education and financial stability are present.

So, Alihandro - do, pray tell, what is the legal will of the people when it comes to this instance? Please answer, I'm very curious and you failed to answer in your last post. "

" Alihandero, it's people like Bradley Angel who keep people like you from glowing in the middle of the day. Bradley Angel came from a great distance to help people in Kettlemen to have their voices and concerns heard. Much like what Jesus did.

Think about it, homey. "

" WOW,

"Ms. D" is now comparing Bradley Angel to Jesus!

Why stop with Obama, eh? "

" @ "jasper"

I don't believe I attacked you personally so there is no need to continue this dialogue. You obviously have your mind made up on this issue and it is your right to state it to anyone who will listen.

@ "Deb"

I did answer you when I said "...the various county, state, and federal laws that are being followed in Kettleman City waste management area..."

The "will of the people" means following these laws and government guidelines as enforced by legally elected and appointed individuals. Sorry to have confused you.

There was an error made in this process when information was neglected to be printed in Spanish. Whether or not that was done on purpose I do not know, but other means of community feedback was established, so I am lead to believe. I will, however, entertain any facts you can provide for us here that supports a willful purpose to abridge the rights of Hispanics.

That would be wrong. "

" To: jasper wrote on Nov 25, 2008 11:56 AM

You are so concerned about the Kettleman City project, have you stopped to look at the air quality in this valley. You want to see an ignored problem, perhaps you should start there, very little has ever been done to the businesses that have contributed to that problem over the years.

Also if you think these dairies moving in from Southern California haven't added to that problem you are insane. The methane gas added to this valley would nock your socks off.

I don't hear you complaining about those problems that are detrimental to even people with a healthy respiratory system.

So while you and Deb are so quick to protect Kettleman City, people are croaking daily because they simply can't breathe. What would you suggest to them a move perhaps, which could also be the resolution to the citizens of Kettleman. No one forces them to live there. "

" WD - your take on my comments are completely off base. Oversight of any project which can have detrimental effects upon people/community must be scrutinized. Things aren't always what they appear to be especially when money is involved and WM first and foremost responsibility is to be profitable.


Tell me exactly what is the problem with people committed to playing a true watch dog role?

Read about William Sanjour and exactly how the government and private industry can and do at times work in only their own best interests.

http://pwp.lincs.net/sanjour/Default.htm "

" Hey "Deb,"

You said:

"Oversight of any project which can have detrimental effects upon people/community must be scrutinized."

Isn't that a double negative too...you know, like the one you tried to call me on a blog or two ago? Oh, I guess it's OK for you to do it but not me...

And what is a legal accepted definition of what you call a "true watch dog role?"

Goes to motive, right "Deb?" "

" Well - read it as such, but look up community in wiki - there's two long distinct meanings. And people in websters has multiple meansings, As you'll note, I used the slash to indicate one and the same in my post.

Nonetheless, my definition of a true watchdog agency, person or group - has the intent to guard against loss, waste, theft, or undesirable practices which hurt people be they individuals or peoples, such as a community. They also have a certain expertise or knowledge in the areas they guard against, thereby making them much more efficient and helpful to those they wish to help and much more of a foe to those who might cause harm for example, in the name of profit.

And to your question - motive? Certainly being a watchdog goes to motive.

Your criticism of the letter writer would indicate you feel some some sort of sinister or selfish motive though... "

" To: Deb wrote on Nov 30, 2008 8:24 PM:

" WD - your take on my comments are completely off base. Oversight of any project which can have detrimental effects upon people/community must be scrutinized. Things aren't always what they appear to be especially when money is involved and WM first and foremost responsibility is to be profitable.

Off base not hardly, if a tree contains waste and it falls in the forest with no one around does it still contaminate it's surroundings? Yes it does but if no one were to live in the forest would it matter? No it wouldn't. "

" To: Tell me exactly what is the problem with people committed to playing a true watch dog role?

I can tell you from working in management owners traditionally see one thing and that is the bottom line. But I can just as well from my experience inform you there are an awful lot of checks and balances already in place with EPA and many other sources such as CalOsha that protects us from that greed becoming foremost in the minds of people in middle management.

We are much smarter than you might realize and most of us are much more responsible to the environment than what you claim. We are not going to be thrown to the wolves to put a few extra bucks in our pockets or the owners pocket.

So rest assured there have been and will be whistle blowers who will step up and protect us when the time arises. "

" To Deb, are you sure this is what you meant to say?

"Oversight of any project which can have detrimental effects upon people/community must be scrutinized".

I think the fact that the Oversight is in place is more important than those you think should oversee it. After all don't people in the performance of Oversight, oversee the project, program or environmental issues? Is that not their basic job? "