Subscribe Now Mobile Site Place an Ad E-Edition Email Updates Obituaries Classifieds Find a Job Find a Car Real Estate Contact Us

Currently

52°

Partly Cloudy

FREE ARCHIVE SEARCH

Opinion

CLASSIFIEDS

All Classifieds
Find a Home
Find a Car
Find a Job
Work Here
Find Merchandise
Today’s Print Ads

2 Weeks Free

Free Ad

Place an ad
in print and online, 24/7 for free, select the Clean Sweep option. Unable to submit Real Estate, Services, and Business Investements at this time.

Get a Subscription

Map the Valley

Restaurant Listing
School Listing
Open Houses
Garage Sales

Subscriber/
Reader Services

Subscribe Now
Contact Customer Service

Calling all born-again Americans

By Norman Lear
Special to The Washington Post

In 1980 I had what I look back on now as a born-again-as-an-American moment. I heard a TV Evangelical ask his viewers to pray for the "removal" of a member of the Supreme Court and it shook me to my core.

What I did as a result was to produce a 60-second public service announcement, take it to South Bend, Ind., show it to Father Theodore Hesburgh at Notre Dame, secure his approval and ask him for the names of other mainline church leaders who might join his endorsement. It was a handful of such leaders, along with the late Texas Congressman Barbara Jordan, that joined in what became People for the American Way.

The title came from the PSA, in which a blue-collar worker says that "No one, not even a preacher, can tell us we're good Christians or bad ones depending on our political points of view ... That's not the American way." With a small purchase of time on a single Washington, D.C. station, that TV ad was picked up nationally, discussed on the evening news on all three networks and, almost like an act of spontaneous combustion, turned into a national organization.

One year later, PFAW produced a two-hour TV special, "I Love Liberty," on ABC, to make the point that, while religion had a place in the hearts of politicians, it had no place in the heart of politics.

The honorary co-chairs of this broadcast were President Gerald Ford and Lady Bird Johnson. On the same stage were Barry Goldwater and Jane Fonda. I look back at it as a born-again Americans moment for some 20,000 people in the Los Angeles Sports Arena.

All of which brings me to news of the Pentagon's 2003 "Worldwide Intelligence Updates" and the need I am feeling for a born-again-as-Americans moment for Americans who care everywhere. As a people, as Christians and Jews and Muslims, as people of every faith and belief, we must denounce this blasphemous use of religion to support -- if not endorse -- not simply war-like policies but war itself. The cover of one of these documents, purportedly handed to President George W. Bush personally by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfield, shows three photographs of soldiers in battle gear, tanks in battle, and bombers overhead. Above the photos and underneath the words Secretary of Defense, is this quote from Joshua: "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified. Do not be discouraged. For the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go."

These words over the photographs of planes and tanks and GIs?

How senseless do we have to be not to see the proximity in this thinking to the words and images that inflame in exactly the same way the insurgent forces we battle across the Middle East today?

I did not sit down to write this so that you would listen to the song composed for People For The American Way by Keith Carradine at bornagainamerican.org, but I hope you do, and that you take the pledge you will find there. And then be in touch with us at PFAW. We are at our wits' end. Tell us how do we, as a people, as Americans, retroactively denounce the placing of everything deep and profound in us, everything that makes us human, our individual compacts with God, in the service of such unbridled, ignominious, self-righteous, not to mention constitutionally inappropriate behavior? And at the very top of our government? I don't have the answer. Do you?

Norman Lear, known as the creator of Archie Bunker and the TV show "All in the Family," is a longtime television and movie producer. He is the founder of People for the American Way.

(May 20, 2009)

Email this story

Print this story

POST A COMMENT

Hanfordsentinel.com encourages readers to engage in civil conversation with their neighbors. Comments that are submitted are not posted to the site immediately. They go into a queue to be moderated and may take several hours to be reviewed, particularly if they are posted after normal office hours.

We reserve the right to remove comments in total that violate our code of conduct. If you want to report a violation, please e-mail editor@HanfordSentinel.com

For more information please read our Terms of use, and Rules of the Road.

Please log in to post comments

*Member ID:
*Password:
	Forgot Your Password?

If you don't have an account you can create one for free by clicking the link below.
CREATE ACCOUNT

The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 20, 2009 4:40 PM:

" To those of you who shout to the rooftops to take Jesus Christ out of government, I say; Was it not our materful and brilliant forefathers who put Jesus Christ in our government? It never ceases to amaze me to see Atheist cling to the constitution for countenance, not realizing a group of religous men founded that very same document and wrote their most inner most feelings upon it for the salvation and survival of man and woman him/her self. Atheist want to give God an eviction notice while praising the virtues of the men who struck the quil to the paper to give them their most basic rights of this land. Every form of government including our own City Council, begins each session with a word from some form of religous representative of our community. This is no coincidence, neither is it inappropriate, it is history and mankind in the making, it is governing by request for guidance and counsel unavailable from mortal man/woman. Why then does an Atheist protest the procedural operations of a proven 200 + year history of goverhment, this late in the game? Is it for notirioty? "

dose wrote on May 20, 2009 7:50 PM:

" I would love for Fred to show us how the founding fathers put Jesus Christ into our government. Cuz so far I don't see it. In fact the only thing I see is the First Amendment which specifically calls for not having Jesus Christ in our government. "

kermit the frog wrote on May 21, 2009 4:08 PM:

" I recently saw a bumper sticker that made me lol: I was born right the first time!

Atheism or agnosticism is growing in this country. To each his own. Deal with it. You can't make me believe in something, just like I can't make you not believe what you will. Doubt can be inserted in there though. "

jeff wrote on May 22, 2009 11:28 AM:

" Fred,

We have been over this and over this. Our forefathers were not all Christian. And most certainly not Christian in the way you believe. God/Jesus/The Holy Ghost/Leprechauns/Unicorns and any other fairytale you chose to believe in has not and was not inserted into our Government by any of the Founding Fathers of this country.

You are in need of a history lesson. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 22, 2009 7:54 PM:

" To: dose wrote on May 20, 2009 7:50 PM:,jeff wrote on May 22, 2009 11:28 AM, kermit the frog wrote on May 21, 2009 4:08 PM:

WOW! You would think I put out an audition call for all Atheist. But to freshen your minds and provide proof listen up:

“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in “the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]"

“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]

The letters written by John Adams, who was the Second President of these United States pretty well says it all. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 22, 2009 8:05 PM:

" To: dose wrote on May 20, 2009 7:50 PM:,jeff wrote on May 22, 2009 11:28 AM, kermit the frog wrote on May 21, 2009 4:08 PM:

While you choose to moch my beliefs in God and others who blog here. I might remind you, what will be your positions on judgement day if we are right and you are wrong? Do you wish to burn in an eternal brimstone fire in hell, rather than even offer the possibility you may be wrong?

I was wrong and Obama got elected, but I won't burn in hell for it. But I must add, I see a rule in our nation much similar to that of a muslim nation than a christian one. Example National Prayer Day was AWOL on Obama's watch. This so called Christian man, is not so, in all settings and appearances and yes he too will be judged for his actions.

So believe how you will, allow me my beliefs and we will get along just fine. The Bible tells me not to worship false Gods, Obama is not God. Though he thinks, he is more popular. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 22, 2009 8:18 PM:

" To: dose wrote on May 20, 2009 7:50 PM:,jeff wrote on May 22, 2009 11:28 AM, kermit the frog wrote on May 21, 2009 4:08 PM:

"Billy Graham’s largest meeting ever was in Seoul, Korea with over 1 million".

This man of the cloth offered nothing more than he has always offered, a shared belief in God. There were no promises of pork barrel spending, special bridges to nowhere, redistribution of wealth and property that manifested this large crowd of interested and God fearing individuals to here Billy Graham. He gave but one promise, "God has a belief and interest in you". It's the speach he has given for decades now and people still respond to it.

With all the above listed special interest and people responsible for placing Obama in office he merely brought more people to the innauguration of a Presidential candidate for the United States of America. Why because of campaign promises of change the only change thus far is new and improved bankruptcy, billions of unearned tax dollars committed to bailouts of companies and corporations by Joe the taxpayer, so broke he can't afford to pay attention. "

dose wrote on May 22, 2009 10:01 PM:

" Fred, I'll ask you again since apparently you didn't understand my question. Show me where the Founding Fathers put God into our government. All you did was cite quotations of personal conversations. These have nothing to do with our Constitution or laws. "

Alihandero wrote on May 23, 2009 3:52 PM:

" Hey Watchdog,

Those of us who believe in a Supreme Being will have something to look forward to on Judgement Day.

Those here who believe in no religion will have - as they have right now - nothing.

And they are oh so proud of that!

P.S.
BTW, when I said "Supreme Being" I did not mean Barack Obama. "

ListenUp wrote on May 23, 2009 5:07 PM:

" Fred, Don't you remember having to learn the pledge of allegiance all over again in grade school, because all the God fearing people thought it wasn't written right the first time. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 23, 2009 7:11 PM:

" To: dose wrote on May 22, 2009 10:01 PM:

Semantics, it is always a word game with you. I provide examples of letters written reflecting God in a man's heart 197 years ago who happened to be the second President of the United States, and all you can do is say; "I didn't understand your question". That this is not proof that God was in the hearts and minds of the forefathers whom John Adams knew personally and whom you never will know or accept.

I on the otherhand, think you are the one who doesn't understand, you are merely a lost soul groping through life putting your personal limited intelligence and spin on everything. Because you don't believe in something does not make it any less significant to those of us who do. It just makes us quetion your motives and reasons not to mention your self worth and commitment to mankind and this community. Again you shout from the rooftops in far away Ohio, your jaded opinion in Ahteism. Why not scream it locally, must you reach so far away to a town who no longer remembers you? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 23, 2009 7:19 PM:

" TListenUp wrote on May 23, 2009 5:07 PM:

Can't say as I do, when I went to school prayer was not only allowed, on test days it was repeatedly the plan of the day. The pledge of allegiance still paid tribute to God and we bought our lunches with money that read; "In God We Trust", on the front where every man, woman and child could see it.

Our course of instruction didn't include anti drug messages because then drugs were tabu and not for children to experience. The adults in our lives saw to that end. Parents today are recruiting their own children to become dealers. That my friend is the difference in societies. That clearly represents a generation of loving caring parents vs the one's today, who will do anything to get ahead.

I blame those changes you speak of squarely on the parents shoulders for allowing them to happen within our schools. The baton was handed to them and they dropped it with the first addicted crack baby ever born.

I think that pretty well states my case in the matter. Parenting doesn't stop.. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 23, 2009 7:27 PM:

" To; Alihandero wrote on May 23, 2009 3:52 PM:

Ditto Ali, that is a given. It never ceases to amaze me how someone can reject a belief in God, but yet their main goal in life is to possess a bunch of "In God We Trust" in their pockets.

We have raised a society that thinks it is more important to sell drugs on every street corner, than to raise their hand and swear an allegiance to this nation in which they were born. It no longer takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to fight the gang a child joins and becomes a radical part of for life. Children today owe all their belief in their homies, not a disciplined group fighting in foxholes in Iraq/Afghanistan. The 60"s proved it is easier to drop out than to drop in to society and be a productive part of the overall scheme of things. Instead of burning bras, it is burning crack pipes that send the message of depraved behavior and misplaced loyalty. It will remain so until all such devices are cracked and thrown away. "

getreal wrote on May 25, 2009 8:15 AM:

" Wow, it's almost like "Night at the Museum - Kings County" here.

Nobody is claiming that some of the founding fathers weren't Christians, but where did they write "their innermost feelings upon" the Constitution?

The founding fathers knew to keep religion in the people and out of government. Your "I see a rule in our nation much similar to that of a muslim nation than a christian one" complaint shows you don't understand what was written or what brought about the founding of our country. You wrongly think that because you claim Christ is on your side, you are with the founding fathers and that you're right.

And why was celebrating Christian faith OK under GW Bush, but celebrating the muslim faith under Obama not OK? You can leave it at "they're different" because you've already shown your colors.

Just because someone chooses to keep religion out of government doesn't mean that they are atheist or agnostic.

Do you know the term "bible thumper" has two meaning? One is because people thumped the bible for emphasis, the other is because people used it as a weapon against others. You, sir, are both. "

dose wrote on May 25, 2009 3:30 PM:

" Fred you can call me names all you want too, it still doesn't change the fact that you have failed to show where the Founding Fathers put God into our government. Personal conversations and correspondence between Jefferson and Davis is all well and good, but those words are not what our Constitution and laws are made of. But here is a quote for you which would seem to negate your point.

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?id=6177

John Adams (the second President of the United States)

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." "

manuel wrote on May 25, 2009 3:54 PM:

" Watchdog Fred I was with you as you wrote about beleiving in god , but towards the end you started showing your hate towards Mr Obama, my question is,why do you despise him so much when he is trying to get america back on track after Bush ruined her "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 25, 2009 5:09 PM:

" To: manuel wrote on May 25, 2009 3:54 PM

" Watchdog Fred I was with you as you wrote about beleiving in god , but towards the end you started showing your hate towards Mr Obama, my question is,why do you despise him so much when he is trying to get america back on track after Bush ruined her"

Well in short concise terms I think you can understand on my opinions of Bush and Obama. Bush wasn't bankrupting Icons in an industry almost one hundred years old. Bush also was not taking from those who worked hard to own what they have and bank what they had, giving to the lazy couch potato who refuses to turn the tv off and participate in the world and community. Bush also never bowed to a foreign head of state in full view of the television audience and then later say it wasn't a bow. Look at the video, I did. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 25, 2009 5:26 PM:

" To: dose wrote on May 25, 2009 3:30 PM:

Calling you names????? Think you better research the archives and read some of your posts.

"In particular, humans have the positive qualities of consciousness, intelligence, feelings, and will. Moreover, although each human soul has these qualities to a specific, finite, and limited degree, there is no limit to the degree that these qualities can exist generally in human beings. (For example, no matter how intelligent a given human being may be, it is possible for another human to be more intelligent.) Since God is the unique cause of every human being, God must have these positive qualities (and undoubtedly others) to a degree greater than every limited (finite) degree, thus to an unlimited (infinite) degree. Hence, God is infinitely conscious, infinitely knowing, infinitely loving, and infinitely willing (all-powerful). In fact, since God is the only Being whose existence is absolute (i.e., uncaused), God has these qualities to an absolute degree".

Thus, the logical answer to the question "what is God's nature?" is to say that "God is like us except for possessing none of our limitations and all of our positive qualities to an infinite degree." "

Alihandero wrote on May 25, 2009 5:59 PM:

" Hey Watchdog,

"dose" and his ilk will try to find secular evidence illustrating support and praise for his lack of beliefs.

On this Memorial Day, it is most evident he will not be even come close to "the company of heroes."

"Day is done,
gone the sun,
From the hills,
from the lake,
From the skies.
All is well,
safely rest,
God is nigh."

We respect and remember.

We are Americans. "

Bobb wrote on May 25, 2009 9:55 PM:

" All of this bantering about keeping God out of the schools and government makes me wonder why we then allow exceptions. A few years ago when I lived in Fresno County there arose a controversy about young Sheik,probably misspelled, boys wearing daggers to school as it was considered a weapon and posed a danger as all weapons were forbidden on school grounds, The case was presented that it was part of their religion that signified the young man had reached adulthood. The case was settled by allowing them to wear the daggers but they could only have the handle in the sheath, no blade, and must be permanently attached. Do we have separate rules about Religion for different cultures? "

Inside The Fire wrote on May 26, 2009 12:44 AM:

" The truth is the truth even if no one believes it. A lie is a lie even if every one believes it.

Will someone please tell me how obama is making our Country better? The fact is he is not. Even if you want to belive the lies told by NBC he is not helping us. He is spending us into extinction. His liberal extreme views are proving to not be mainstream. He wants to make abortion legal on every street corner. But America is becoming more pro life than choice. His views on national security are scary and unwise. I felt much safer when Bush and Cheney were in charge. I hope and pray that God will spare us from future harm and protect us from our unwise leaders. "

Scott Tucker wrote on May 26, 2009 3:13 AM:

" Hi Bobb,

In reference to your comment "Do we have separate rules about Religion for different cultures?", I have some questions:

Are observant Christians not allowed to wear crosses to school on a necklace around their necks, and are orthodox Jews not allowed to wear tzitzits or kippahs to school? How is the case you referenced any different? Once the objectional part of the dagger, the blade, has been removed, it is nothing more than a religious symbol, just like the cross or the kippah. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 26, 2009 8:03 AM:

" To: Alihandero wrote on May 25, 2009 5:59 PM:

HEY ALI FOR THE LATEST IN MUSIC PLEASURE PUNCH THIS IN, TURN YOUR SPEAKERS UP AND ENJOY: http://cappymick.multiply.com/video/item/30
This is the latest song released by this group and the media won't play it, because they consider it not politically correct. Listen and see if you don't think it is the most correct thing you've heard in some time. Radio Stations are missing the boat on this one. "

jeff wrote on May 26, 2009 8:42 AM:

" Fred,

"Was it not our materful and brilliant forefathers who put Jesus Christ in our government?"

The answer is still no and has been since the inception of the Republic.

You were called on this and tried to prove your point by pulling two quotes from one man to another - John Adamns to Thomas Jefferson - and some statistical information about Billy Graham.

So out of the 100+ "Founding Fathers" your proof is two quotes from a personal letter of just one man and the church attendance of a guy who had nothing to do with the founding of our nation.

I guess with this kind of logic anything is possible, including fairy tales written by men thousands of years ago. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on May 26, 2009 11:49 AM:

" to dose and others that doubt that our founding fathers believed in Christ, please check out arrticle VII of the Constitution:
"done in Convention by the Unanimous
Consent of the States present the Seventeenth
Day of September in the Year
of our Lord one thousand seven hundred
and Eighty seven and of the Independence
of the United States of America
the Twelfth. In witness whereof We
have hereunto subscribed our Names"
Please tell me why they injected "Year of our Lord" if they truely wanted to keep religion out? They could have just said 1776 AD or just simply 1776. "

Bobb wrote on May 26, 2009 12:37 PM:

" Scott; I will agree with you to a point but this District "jumped the gun" when the mood of the electorate was to ban Religious displays in all schools. Things such as shirts with Jesus' picture on them, free period Bible reading, etc.were banned. I felt they really went overboard on their restrictions to begin with. Most people just complied but this group took the District to court. I am not sure if they relaxed other Religious restrictions after the court decision as this case was about 10 years ago and it got very quiet after that. Personally, I think Government is taking too many of our Liberty's. The more laws that are passed and restrictions applied, the less FREE we become. "

The Oracle wrote on May 26, 2009 12:38 PM:

" You either believe or you don't. Makes me no difference what liberals believe in, except socialism, welfare for all, Obamacare and open borders and releasing Gitmo detainees into the US. Then I care...and will viciously fight against all the above "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 26, 2009 2:23 PM:

" To: jeff wrote on May 26, 2009 8:42 AM:

I offer up the following of proof positive God was in the heart of our forefathers.

"President George Washington, September 17th, 1796 "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"

Further a prayer he offered at Valley Forge:
His Prayer At Valley Forge "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prostrates myself before Thee."

"Bless O Lord the whole race of mankind, and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy Son, Jesus. "Of all dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens."

"To the distinguished character of a Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian." "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 26, 2009 2:30 PM:

" To: jeff wrote on May 26, 2009 8:42 AM:

Next thing I know you will tell me President John F. Kennedy was not really killed, it was all a staged performance for Cuba. One of the rumors that floated back then and still surfaces on occassion.

If I do not hear or see a bee, can it still sting me? When houses are knocked to the ground in a swooping path and a Tornado is announced, do you doubt what knocked down the houses? I think the problem with atheist is they dwell too much on finding out the why, isntead of the action. We as a society normally learn from our mistakes. We learned along time ago in the military as demonstrated by George Washington, prayer does work. So you seek the truth my brother, you find your own answers, because evidently you don't take anyone else's word for anything. What a horrible life of distrust you must lead! But on Judgement day if you reject and don't recognize Jesus, he will not recognize you, it is written. "

jeff wrote on May 26, 2009 2:34 PM:

" NHG,

It’s nothing more than a colloquialism. I don’t think people our doubting that they believed in Christ – Although many were Deists - what’s in doubt is the claim that they intended on the United States being a “Christian” nation. These are two very separate issues. If the founding fathers intended on our government operating under the rules of Christianity why did they also say things like

“I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature.” -Thomas Jefferson

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
absurdity." John Adams

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the
Christian religion." -John Adams Treaty of Tripoli

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist." -Benjamin Franklin "

Scott Tucker wrote on May 26, 2009 2:41 PM:

" NHG:

In response to your comment: "They could have just said 1776 AD or just simply 1776."

A.D. stands for "anno domini", which means the same thing as "in the Year of our Lord", so your question as to why they didn't use it instead is a bit redundant. Secondly if they had used 1776 AD or just simply 1776, their dating of the Constitution would have been wrong, because as you correctly quoted in your comment, the Constitution wasn't adopted until 1787 Anno Domini.

As to the crux of your agument, let's just say that the drafters of the Constitution were just being conventional in their use of a recognized dating system. They could have used the French Revolution Calendar, but wait...it hadn't been invented yet. Or they could've used the 5th of Tishrei, 5548, to date the Constitution, but I don't think many people know the Hebrew Calendar well enough to know that that was the 17th of Sept. 1787.

I guess when you sneeze, I should say "Gesundheit" or "Santé", because if I used the conventional "Bless You" or even "God Bless You", it must prove that I believe in God, right? "

Scott Tucker wrote on May 26, 2009 2:47 PM:

" Bobb, thanks for your reply. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 26, 2009 2:54 PM:

" For SJT
"RESOLVED, That it be, and hereby is recommended to the good People of this Colony of all Denominations, that THURSDAY the Eleventh Day of May next be set apart as a Day of Public Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer...to confess the sins...to implore the Forgiveness of all our Transgression...and a blessing on the Husbandry, Manufactures, and other lawful Employments of this People; and especially that the union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights (for hitherto we desire to thank Almighty GOD) may be preserved and confirmed....And that AMERICA may soon behold a gracious Interposition of Heaven."
By Order of the [Massachusetts] Provincial
Congress, John Hancock, President.

Patrick Henry
March 23, 1775

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

On November 20, 1798, in his Last Will and Testament, Patrick Henry wrote:

"This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed." "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 26, 2009 3:05 PM:

" For SJT
John Jay
(America's first Supreme Court Chief Justice and Co-Author of the Federalist Papers)

October 12, 1816

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, December 20, 1787.

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."
Thomas Jefferson to A. L. C. Destutt de Tracy, 1820.

"And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."
Letter to John Taylor, May 28, 1816 "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 26, 2009 3:13 PM:

" For SJT
William Penn
(Founder of Pennsylvania)

"If thou wouldst rule well, thou must rule for God, and to do that, thou must be ruled by him....Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."

George Washington,
"The thing that separates the American Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather die on his feet, than live on his knees!"

In his Inaugural Speech, April 30, 1789,

"...it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes...."

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States."

Gee Jeff, it looks like to me there are examples upon examples of a belief in God by our forefathers. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on May 27, 2009 7:32 AM:

" to jeff and Scot Tucker, my whole post was to show that there was a reference to Christianity in the original constitution, something that jeff had asked WDF to point out. I believe that I am intelligent enough to know what AD stands for, but both of you miss my point. The founding fathers could have used that to signify that date as such a date that was an established measure. But for them to use the phrase "Year of OUR Lord", is implying that all signees where Christian, and did in fact want some measure of Christianity in the government.

Yes my bad for saying 1776, vice 1787 as the constitution itselfs proclaims.

For anybody to try to claim that our founding fathers didn't fashion the government after Christian beliefs is plain foolish.

Someone also please enlighten me as to exactly what is a Diest? "

jeff wrote on May 27, 2009 10:22 AM:

" Fred,

You have tried to use that Washington quote in the past so again I will disabuse you of any notion that Washington said that, because of course he never did. That quote is said to be pulled from his farewell address but search the document for these words and you will produce no results. Stop spreading lies.

The prayer at Valley Forge is a hoax as far as anyone knows. There is no historical data to show that it ever happened.

The rest of your rant is nonsense, what is your point? You make claims that Atheists denounce things that actually happen because the ‘How’ cannot be explained yet you have no proof whatsoever that any of your claims regarding religion or our founders did actually happen. You still haven’t explained to anyone how Billy Graham’s church attendance proves that Christianity was inserted into our government. "

dose wrote on May 27, 2009 10:30 AM:

" To Fred, and NHG:

You both are completely missing the point. No one here is saying that the founding fathers didn't believe in God, what we are saying is that they did not set up America to be a nation governed by Christian law and morality. Neither one of you have quoted anything that remotely supports that argument. "

jeff wrote on May 27, 2009 10:42 AM:

" NHG,

Deist: a person who believes that God created the universe and then abandoned it

Sorry but I 100% disagree. Our founding fathers most certainly did not model our government on Christian values. They founded our government on common sense principles that – at the time – tried to treat everyone equal, they believed in the rights of the citizen – something we have all lost regardless of political ideology. History has been massacred by the Christian conservatives in our country. The entire reason our nation was founded was because people were unhappy with a government ruling itself based on biblical law.

If adding ‘Year of our Lord’ is some sort of proof of Christian values being inserted into our government what does it say then that the days of the week are named after Pagan gods? What about every other time they avoid using ‘Year of our Lord’ when a date is used? "

NotHomeGrown wrote on May 27, 2009 12:43 PM:

" to jeff, gotta call you out again. Yes our fore-fathers did base the constitution on faith. They didn't leave Europe because they wanted to get away from faith based governments, but rather because of governments that ruled based upon only one interpretation of Biblical law.

If it was common sense only as you say, then why did George Washington own slaves? Why didn't the constitution immediately set all slaves free? Why were adultery and sodomy punishable crimes?

If they so believed in the "citizens" rights, then why were only land holding males allowed to vote?

So many of this things that I talk about were based upon teachings and morals of a Christian society, as that is what the majority of "citizens" of America were at that time.

If Deist believe that God created the Universe, but then abadonded it, the why would they believe in Jesus Christ? I would think that they would consider such a reference as offensive.

I would not take offense with you if you said something other than "God Bless You" after I sneezed. (continued) "

NotHomeGrown wrote on May 27, 2009 12:49 PM:

" to jeff, (continued) Don't know if it is actually factual, but once saw on the history channel how the phrase "God Bless You" came to be used after a sneeze. During the bubonic plaque, people thought that the disease was passed through a sneeze, so if you sneezed on me, I was then forgiving you for killing me with the bubonic plague by blessing you with the phrase of "God Bless You".

So again I will not take offense with you if you use the phrase of Gesundheit, since you profess not to believe in God, and I wouldn't want to force you to say something that you don't believe in. But yes I would take it that if you used the phrase "God Bless You", then I would think that you also believed, otherwise I would have to take it as you using in the Lord's name in vain. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 27, 2009 1:13 PM:

" Jeff & Dose, I used Billy Graham as an example of a man of God who could draw great audiences in a land that didn't understand English. Before you jump off the deep end, I am not comparing him to Jesus, but if mortal man can draw these kind of audiences spreading the word of God. Then isn't it easier to believe that as Jesus traveled the land, people listened, people cared about what he said? Long before the invention of distractions as television, video games and Ipods? Now that we've agreed upon that, why wouldn't that belief have carred over and been vested in the forefathers of this country. You will admit Jesus our Lord was in the forefathers hearts and minds but not that those beliefs coursed through the body and down the arm to the fingers that drafted the constitution of the United States. That's like saying I believe in Super Hero's, but not their attire. You feel you have to admit God was a part of the forefathers lives, but not of their drafted documents. That's why God is everywhere in Government, on our documents & currency? "

Alihandero wrote on May 27, 2009 1:28 PM:

" The United States of America does indeed follow the Judeo-Christian tradition and its reverence; in fact it is LAW!
_________________________________________________

SEC. 302. NATIONAL MOTTO - STATUTE

"IN GOD WE TRUST" IS THE NATIONAL MOTTO.

SOURCE - PUB. L. 105 225, AUG. 12, 1998, 112 STAT. 1263; PUB. L. 107 293; SEC. 3(A), NOV. 13, 2002, 116 STAT. 2060.
_________________________________________________

Congress reaffirmed the exact language that has appeared in the official U.S, Motto for decades under Democrats AND Republicans.

‘PROVE IT’… ‘PROVE IT’ hawks “jeff” and his disbelieving ilk chant and when we DO prove it he says:

“I guess with this kind of logic anything is possible, including fairy tales written by men thousands of years ago. "

Sorry, amigos, God and the principles of the Old and New Testament are SO part of our great nation.

Proven facts once again ladies and gentlemen! "

jeff wrote on May 27, 2009 4:13 PM:

" NHG,
Sorry but I do not agree and yes people left England to leave a country that ruled based on the rules of one religion hence why a country was established to rule without inserting any religion into it. The constitution was not based on faith but on unalienable rights.

I had quit using the term ‘God bless you’ specifically because of my beliefs – by the way there are many stories of how that was started one says that people said it to others who sneezed because it was believed that sneezing was a sign that you were possessed – but if saying it means I am using the lords name in vain I think I might start using it again.

Fred,
Your Billy Graham story is neither touching nor poignant. I do not agree with you and do not admit that anything you have said is correct and furthermore it has almost nothing to do with the discussion. Way to stay on topic.

Alex,
We have been over this a dozen times before also. “In God We Trust” was not added until 1956. The country was not founded that way. You have proven nothing. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 27, 2009 5:42 PM:

" To: jeff wrote on May 27, 2009 4:13 PM

Funny you should say that I am not on topic, it seems the topic is "born again americans', not Athiest Unite. Seems to me I have remained on topic, factual and within the content of the discussion. It is you who tries to take it off topic and deny a Christian's belief, simply because it doesn't fit your lifestyle. You remind me of the Roman's conquest to toss the Christian to the Lions. They failed and so shall you. "

Alihandero wrote on May 27, 2009 6:53 PM:

" OK, Jeff" said this:

"God/Jesus/The Holy Ghost/Leprechauns/Unicorns and any other fairytale you chose to believe in has not and was not inserted into our Government by any of the Founding Fathers of this country."

Here is evidence for you, then:

“IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776

THE UNANIMOUS DECLARATION OF THE THIRTEEN UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

...THE SEPARATE AND EQUAL STATION TO WHICH THE LAWS OF NATURE AND OF NATURE'S GOD ...

...WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF EVIDENT, THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, THAT THEY ARE ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR WITH CERTAIN UNALIENABLE RIGHTS...

AND FOR THE SUPPORT OF THIS DECLARATION, WITH A FIRM RELIANCE ON THE PROTECTION OF DIVINE PROVIDENCE...

WE MUTUALLY PLEDGE TO EACH OTHER OUR LIVES, OUR FORTUNES, AND OUR SACRED HONOR.”

56 God-fearing men put their name and in their own hand on our Declaration of Independence between August 2, 1776 and January 22, 1777, including two future presidents, three vice presidents, and ten members of the United States Congress.

Calling them liars, are you, "jeff?"

Unlike you, they believed in something greater than themselves or any man. "

ListenUp wrote on May 27, 2009 9:27 PM:

" To Jeff
Thanks Jeff for the year 1956 as the year the motto came into existence. Within a year or so of my remembering in grade school of having to learn to put under God in the Pledge. (a sign of the times I guess). Fred and his group just can't beleive that our forefathers were christians, but still had the sense to know that christianity or any religion did not belong in government. Those who came after them thought they knew, and still do think they know better. "

jeff wrote on May 28, 2009 11:48 AM:

" Alex,

I'm confused, what line in that passage is your "Proof"? What would I be saying they're lying about exactly?

I have no idea what your point is, please try and be more clear. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 28, 2009 6:41 PM:

" To: ListenUp wrote on May 27, 2009 9:27 PM

All I can say in response to you Listenup is when I made that pledge of allegiance also in 1956, I meant every word of it.

The same as when I took the Oath to our nation to protect it from all enemies foreign and domestic at the ripe old age of 18 years and four months. Meeting my full and complete contractual agreement with Uncle Same for both active and reserve duty. Althought that commitment may have ended I still, accept and abide by, that oath to my nation, my country, my home and its people.

Know what I do about military men, who let's face up, comprised of majority of the forefathers, I can tell you quite honestly their hearts, minds and souls, intended for God to be a part of this great nation. Furthermore, to ensure a fighting man's spirit most of the following Presidents were military men prior to serving as President of these United States. Men such as Wshington, Jefferson, Madison, and many more who were if not militia were minute men serving their nation. "

ListenUp wrote on May 28, 2009 11:31 PM:

" To Fred
I think that you read a comment on this blog, and you are so closed minded that you really don't comprehend what was said. You are too busy trying to tell the world your opinion of life as you see it. Slow down and THINK about what you read.You sound like a intelligent person sometimes. You may even change your mind. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 29, 2009 12:36 AM:

" HEY ALIHANDERO, Check out this web site, I received the info via Newsmax. Wow! what a fresh perspective of what ACORN does and how they do it. They are already positioning theirselves to effect the next election, just like the last, but are under investigation currently for proven voter fraud charges. But thanks to the FOI act, they may be headed off at the pass.

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/census_acorn/2009/05/28/219140.html?s=al&promo_code=80A0-1 "

Dandre wrote on May 29, 2009 12:43 AM:

" James Madison argued that 'state' would corrupt 'church'.
Thomas Jefferson argued that 'church' would corrupt 'state'.
They were both right and we are seeing the effects.
Fred, you brought up Jesus Christ but their is no mention of that name in any Founding Documents and any references such as ‘divine providence’ or ‘Natures Laws and Nature’s God’ are vague and don’t demonstrate any emphasis on Christianity as the OFFICIAL religion.
John Adams is the most conservative example and the only DIRECT quote is ‘the United States NOT being a Christian Nation’??????
and the ‘logic’ goes ‘round and ‘round ….. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 30, 2009 6:05 AM:

" To:Dandre wrote on May 29, 2009 12:43 AM:

Same old blame game, right Dandre. It doesn't fit in the square hole so it must not be right. "If the gloves don't fit, you must equit".

Anything to bash the forefathers and reshape their already aptly expressed feelings about God and Country. This from a man who professes some connection, God only knows what, to the military of these United States.

"Anyone", serving in a combat tested situation has a belief in God, trust me. Yes Dandre, Bear Cat Bombers flying over an aircraft carrier off the coast of Vietnam in the Tonkin Gulf is combat. No matter how you try and reshape that or the service involved with it. At least I am willing to spell out what I did, you avoid it at all costs. Could it be there was brig time involved, or worse?

Also, Jesus Christ alias the Lord's son, I know you aren't too close to him, but I also believe you've heard the name. Surely the nuns didn't miss that lesson? The crucifiction, ring a bell? Rock Star 101. "

jeff wrote on May 30, 2009 8:28 PM:

" ""Anyone", serving in a combat tested situation has a belief in God, trust me."

Prove it Fred. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 31, 2009 12:49 PM:

" To: jeff wrote on May 30, 2009 8:28 PM:

The population who most voted for the issue before us was the black community. By a resounding 75%. But did we see "Black People" being blocked from their religous rights to worship? No, we did not, why was that Jeff?

You say this is a civil rights issue, yet you lack the support of one of the largest group of people who truly suffered documented civil rights violations. Wouldn't you think, that if they felt this fight was validated, they wouldn't support it? Prove me wrong Jeff. . . . . . . . . When the figures are there for you to look at and don't discount them they are real. End of this discussion. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 31, 2009 5:46 PM:

" NEWT GINGRICH, explains that if God wasn't in Government why was every session of Congress and the Senate started with prayer. Here is what Newt had to say:

"The evidence that our Founding Fathers built America on Judeo-Christian principles is written on nearly every building, memorial and monument in our Nation's Capital".

"In my search for proof, I found biblical scripture engraved on some of the most important buildings in Washington, D.C."

For example, did you know that:
"The heavens declare the glory of God" (Psalm 19:1) is engraved on a wall of the Library of Congress".

"A sculpture of Moses with the Ten Commandments appears over the east portico of the Supreme Court".

"Holiness to the Lord" is engraved into a tribute block of the Washington Monument".

"And a heartfelt prayer from President John Adams is carved into the stone fireplace in the White House State Dining Room: "I pray to heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house and all that hereafter inhabit it."

Way to go Newt! "

jeff wrote on Jun 1, 2009 9:10 AM:

" Fred,

Not sure what you are arguing, I think you are confused and forgot which article you were posting on. Your first comment sounds more like something for the Prop 8 article seeing as how no one on this thread is discussing gay marriage.

Let’s take a closer look at your “Examples’.

The Library of Congress originally had no such quote inscribed on it. Only until it was rebuilt in 1897 did this happen.

Along with Moses on the east portico is also Solon and Confucius. Using your logic we are a Christian/Confucian/Solonistic nation. I never knew you followed eastern philosophy; did you hang your prayer flags last week under your American flag?

The Washington Monument wasn’t built until 1848 and the stone that carries that inscription was donated by the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania.

None of your examples proves anything. None of these examples were around when the country was founded and nowhere in our most sacred documents did the founders of our country insert any religion. They did however go out of their way to state that government and religion should be kept separate. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 2, 2009 8:28 AM:

" Jeff,
The Declaration of Independence

The Declaration of Independence of the United States of America acknowledges faith towards a supreme God who created mankind. The Declaration also acknowledges by all who signed it, the laws of God, the providence of God, and the judgment of God.

The Declaration also appeals to God as the Supreme Judge of the world for their intentions. Furthermore, for the support of this Declaration, the signers relied firmly on the protection of Divine Providence.

No student should fail to know these truths of our American history. Encourage the teachers in your school to distribute this information. It certainly is not in the current text books given to most students in public schools. This kind of godly heritage information must be provided by parents and pastors and god fearing teachers. The state has not done it. It's up to you. What your child learns depends in large part upon you.

Laws of nature and of nature's God
Acknowledges we are created
Supreme God as Creator of mankind
Faith towards God shown by their appeal to Almighty God
Supreme Judge "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 2, 2009 4:57 PM:

" TO: JEFF, if you doubt the Declaration of Independence wasn't a part of the original forefathers thoughts and declarations. Than all I can say: Is God help you! "

jeff wrote on Jun 3, 2009 8:33 AM:

" Fred,

God can't help me if he doesn't exist and besides I prefer to help myself. "

jeff wrote on Jun 3, 2009 12:51 PM:

" Fred,

Yes the Declaration of Independence does - in a way - say all the things that you mention but did you notice that they only refer to ‘Nature’s God’ and an unassigned ‘Creator’. This seems very ambiguous at best but the only logically conclusion one can take is that they were referring to the Universe and that they are probably Deists. They most certainly made no mention of a Christian god or any mention of Bible law. Your argument really only diminishes your position. If you want to use the Declaration of Independence as ammunition it will most certainly backfire on you unless along with being a follower of Eastern Philosophy you are a Wiccan too.
“Acknowledges we are created”

What does this prove? Of course we were created, everything is “Created” by something.

“Supreme God as Creator of mankind
Faith towards God shown by their appeal to Almighty God
Supreme Judge "

What are you talking about? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 4, 2009 10:09 AM:

" To: jeff wrote on Jun 3, 2009 12:51 PM:

If God doesn't exist why do you fear him so? Why do you fear the Christians who choose to worship him? Your so convinced of his non-existence then continue to deny him and see if upon his return he doesn't deny you. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 4, 2009 10:11 AM:

" To: jeff wrote on Jun 1, 2009 9:10 AM:

I am talking about a very important document in history that you read one way and the rest of the world reads another. So I guess that makes you right Jeff, according to your logic you are the only one who is ever right. You say so to me, Alihandero, and NHG all the time. You are the seeker of truth, the all knowing, idle worshiping zealot of anti-religion. Congratulations, you've earned your title demon. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 14, 2009 8:31 PM:

" To: ALIHANDERO, for those who still don't believe it, have them turn to the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw-o "

HOT TOPICS

MORE LOCAL NEWS

Lemoore:

Selma:

Kingsburg:

PHOTO GALLERIES

More Photos

Sentinel Photos (185) Albums

: Kings County Academic Decathlon; Monday, February, 8 2010; (8) Photos

: Taoist Temple Tour; Monday, February, 8 2010; (9) Photos

: Hanford West vs Golden West Boys Basketball; Monday, February, 8 2010; (10) Photos

Reader Submitted (7) Albums

: Vintage Hanford; Monday, December, 15 2008; (1) Photos

: Vacation Photos; Thursday, November, 20 2008; (39) Photos

: Events; Thursday, November, 20 2008; (38) Photos

EMAIL UPDATES

Sign up today to get all your local headlines delivered to your home or work e-mail address, so you don't miss the latest in breaking and local news.

E-Mail:
Daily News Updates
Breaking News Alerts