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View Point: Family values of a different kind

A young gay couple we know desperately wants a child of their own, so they are scrimping and saving to pay for a surrogate mother. They figure the process will take five years and many thousands of dollars, but they are committed to parenthood.

A lesbian acquaintance is preparing to marry her longtime partner back home in Massachusetts, which has sanctioned gay marriage for years. Her talk about dresses and honeymoons sounds just as excited, and apprehensive, as any other bride we've ever met.

As a dear friend lay dying, her son's boyfriend took on the task of changing her IV tubes. At our grandson's Little League games, one teammate's "two dads" show up regularly and cheer him on. A colleague retired recently to Seattle, where she could baby-sit for her only grandchild, the biological son of her daughter's partner.

Are these families threatening the moral order? Are they diminishing the sanctity of marriage? Are saving money and buying wedding dresses and cheering at Little League games acts of rebellion against established social norms?

Of course not. In fact, they are exactly the opposite. These same-sex couples are sharing and strengthening the "family values" that conservatives profess to defend when they oppose gay marriage -- constancy, stability and a belief in the promises they make to each other and their children.

This is why the issue of same-sex marriage is shifting so rapidly. The electorate has not been seized by an ideological awakening or bullied by gay-rights activists. People have simply seen how gay couples are living in their own communities and, often, in their own families.

If Barack and Michelle Obama have been able to show that black families can be just like everyone else, gay families are making the same point -- every day, in countless small ways.

In the latest ABC/Washington Post poll, 49 percent supported gay marriage while 46 percent opposed. That's not a large margin, but only three years ago, 58 percent rejected the idea and 36 percent accepted it. Moreover, the trend line is clear: In a CNN survey almost six of 10 people under 34 backed same-sex marriage, compared to one in four of those over 65.

We, too, have shifted views. Three years ago, we strongly supported civil unions and equal rights for gay couples but did not think the country was ready for same-sex marriage. The country as a whole is still not ready, and for political reasons President Obama remains where we used to be -- in favor of civil unions, but nothing more.

Individual states are ready, however, and the progress has been stunning. Vermont and Maine recently passed laws permitting same-sex marriage and in Iowa, the Supreme Court legalized the process. New Hampshire is likely to become the sixth state to sanction gay weddings (Massachusetts and Connecticut already have them). Legislatures in New York and New Jersey are also debating the issue, and politicians -- at least on the two coasts -- are shifting gears quickly.

Gov. John Baldacci of Maine made a typical statement when he signed the marriage law: "In the past, I opposed gay marriage while supporting the idea of civil unions. I have come to believe that this is a question of fairness and of equal protection under the law, and that a civil union is not equal to marriage."

Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor, explained his switch to ABC: "This is changing. You know, gay people are seen as people first and then as gay or lesbian later. That's the way it should be."

It's not just that gays are seen as "people first" who are fully capable of commitment. It's that many heterosexual couples can hardly pose as paragons of marital virtue.

In Steve's class at George Washington University this semester, one young woman wrote about a mother so devastated by divorce that she was borrowing money from her daughter.

Another told of watching her stepfather beat her mother. In a third case, a mother abandoned her two children and now lives on a houseboat with a lover half her age.

These stories don't stand for all straight couples, but promiscuous thrill-seekers don't reflect all gays, either. There's virtue and sin in every group. But that's the point. The law should treat everyone fairly. It doesn't now, but someday it will. And all those "radical reprobates" cheering at Little League games will have the same rights as the rest of us.

Cokie Roberts' latest book is "Ladies of Liberty: The Women Who Shaped Our Nation" (William Morrow, 2008). Steve and Cokie Roberts can be reached at stevecokie@gmail.com.

(May 23, 2009)

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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

Alihandero wrote on May 23, 2009 4:32 PM:

" Well now,

"...this is a question of fairness and of equal protection under the law, and that a civil union is not equal to marriage."

Continuing the 'argumentum absurdum,' we all know that Men can't have babies so nature isn't fair, right?

Why don't we rally 'round that cause, too?

Gee, folks, could it be this: life itself isn't fair?

And is it also not true that some of us are never satisfied until we just get what we want?

What's the 'fair' thing to do?

Thanks for the stimulus, stevecokie. "

bluefish wrote on May 26, 2009 8:17 AM:

" Government is not "nature" Alihandero.

And the government of THIS country was set up to ensure equal protection and rights under the law for ALL citizens. "

Melissa wrote on May 26, 2009 11:26 AM:

" What a beautiful article Mr. and Mrs Cokie. Thank you for pointing out what is so often over looked. That we are people too, that we are active in our community, we are good parents, we are good sons/daughters, that we dream of weddings and honeymoons. But most importantly for pointing out that we are not the threat to marriage. That there is good and bad regardless of your sexual orientation and that we should all be seen as people first. After the verdicts today, this lifted my spirits a little, to know that there are folks out there who truly see the whole picture, not just what they want to see gives me hope of a better more equal future for myself and others out there like me who just want to have our equal rights.

Ali, you are comparing apples to oranges again. Men having children and gay couples having the legal right to marry...hmmm are you serious? You were not satisfied until you and those with your beliefs stripped me and my community of our rights and you say some people dont give up till they get what they want? Calling the kettle black are we? "

Mrs.D wrote on May 26, 2009 12:34 PM:

" Gay couples have the right to marry. And as Alihandero knows, due to nature, men can't have babies. But they can adopt a child carried to term in an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy. They'll be as good as any parent out in the general public, so why not? We keep hearing people yammering that this is America and our freedoms are at stake. So that is why our soldiers are fighting and dying for in Iraq and Afghanistan. Live and let live, folks. And if you don't like it, move to where Rush Limbaugh wants you to live. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on May 26, 2009 2:59 PM:

" Melissa, again you are accussing us of depriving your community of rights, and I will again say that you are wrong. There is nothing that we are keeping you from, you can still marry a man, since you are a woman. Just like any other woman in the U.S. But you by choice don't want to marry a man. So there are other avenues available to you in regards to your relationship, but if I recall you said that you were "married" during the brief time in between ballots.

If I can post here that I would support an initiative that would afford your community the same benefits that we heterosexuals are afforded by getting married, why can't your community acknowledge that their desire to redefine marriage is hurtful to a vast majority of people, and compromise and work peacefully to have California law changed to simplify domestic parternerships and the benefits associated with it? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 26, 2009 3:52 PM:

" To: Melissa wrote on May 26, 2009 11:26 AM:

All I have to say to your comments, is if you need Steve and Cokie to lift your spirits and give you hope, your beliefs aren't what you profess them to be.

Steve rides on Cokie's coat tails and always has, but she is about at the end of a stretch in journalism that has already lasted far to long, in the opinions of most with insight. The sooner her biased opinions disappear from the the distributed media the better, in my humble opinion. Her liberalism is not masked by her hatred for the male in the world, as she lambastes them at all opportunity.

Babies were meant to be born from the relationship of man and woman, not through sperm banks, not through test tubes, but naturally and by the grace of God. We need to keep science out of our bedrooms, the way you keep screaming to keep God out of the government.
Man needs to learn there is only one creator of human life, and the same one, who determines when to end it. "Like it or Not" "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 26, 2009 4:00 PM:

" To: Melissa wrote on May 26, 2009 11:26 AM:

I tried to tell you when Gaven Newsome, stood at that podium and uttered the words "Like It Or Not", he awoke a sleeping Giant. No one including yourself, I would imagine, like to be told that phrase. Then you have the nerve to say how does this effect us in the Christian Community, enough to rally and bring Prop 8 to a roaring success. The six of seven Supreme Court Justices ruled along with that vote we cast, this time. The seventh, will probably be removed from their seat in due time. Why not, if your group can get people fired for merely contributing money to support this, why shouldn't we be able to get the Justice removed from any further decsions? What now, turnabout is not fair play, in politics anything goes, as you have witnessed today.

This result isn't the end, as Ali aptly points out, you will never give up, what you don't realize on this equation, is we will never give in. I would say you are at least, two generations away from getting it.. "

Alihandero wrote on May 26, 2009 5:08 PM:

" Mrs.D wrote on May 26, 2009 12:34 PM:
"Gay couples have the right to marry."

As of Prop. 8 and today's State Supreme court confirmation, I can firmly tell her:

N O T H E Y C A N' T!

Unless the move to a homosexual marriage state, that is... "

jeff wrote on May 27, 2009 12:15 PM:

" NHG,

“There is nothing that we are keeping you from, you can still marry a man, since you are a woman. Just like any other woman in the U.S.”

Let’s tweak your statement a little bit to get some clarification on it.

“There is nothing that we are keeping you from, you can still marry a white man, since you are a white woman. Just like any other white woman in the U.S.”

If interracial marriage was outlawed – and heavily so based on Christian values – would you make that statement to someone?

You have still never explained how allowing gay marriage affects anyone. And we are only talking about the legal definition not the religious definition – not to mention that the actual definition of marriage says nothing regarding sex only the religious and legal definitions do.

If you’re that worried about the “harm” of gay marriage you’ve already lost anyways. Five states accept it and 18,000 gay marriages are legal in California. "

Melissa wrote on May 27, 2009 6:36 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, get real. Just because a newspaper article lifted my spirits after being told I was unable to be like the rest of the citizens of this state does not say anything about my beliefs or convictions. Are you going to tell me that just because you may attend at religious seminar that means your beliefs have weakened? Or is it you need a boost from the blast you recieve for your beliefs? Before you comment, think about what you are saying. My life does nothing to the Christian community, if you dont like it turn the other cheek. You are not involved with my life, and as Jeff pointed out none of you have come up with an acurate legal reason as to why gay marriage would effect your marriage. Also what do you think some poor god fearing heterosexual woman who is unable to have children would think about your comments to keep science out of the bedroom? Church and State are seperate and that should be enforced, in this whole situation you and others violated several of my civil rights, some being freedom of religion, pursuit of happiness, due process..... "

Melissa wrote on May 27, 2009 6:49 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, as for what Gavin Newsom said, Freedom of Speach, and he is right. We are not second class, but on the same class as you and deserve the same civil liberties, civil rights and protection from the law as you do. You were right he did unite all the religious folks in this state to push thier religious beliefs on others that is for sure. I believe is intentions with his statement, however, were to let everyone know we exsist, that whether you like it or not we are gay and deserve the same legal rights you have and that includes marriage. He also united the LGBT community and no we will not give up until we are equal. No Fred, I do not think it will be generations before we are equal. Remember Prop 8 won by a narrow margin, that means that a great part of this state believes we should be equal. "

Melissa wrote on May 27, 2009 6:56 PM:

" NHG, no I did not have the good fortune to marry before the elections. Just because it was legal, did not mean we were going to run right out and do so. We took for granted that this state saw us as equal and that we will have that right when we finished planning the wedding we wanted. But that was taken away before we did so. No I do not have the same right as you, I am not able to have a marriage license with name of the woman I love on it. She and I will not have the same rights as you thru a domestic partnership. This equal but different scenario is plain out discriminations and it is not right. Marriage does not belong to you or any particular religion. Because it is also a legal contract, I as a citizen, should be able to have access to that. "

Dandre wrote on May 28, 2009 12:51 AM:

" Hang in there Melissa. These homophobes are a dying breed.
I feel sorry for the gay relatives who tiptoe around their ignorance.
Evolution is a slow process. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 28, 2009 2:22 PM:

" To: Melissa wrote on May 27, 2009 6:36 PM

I disagree with you, which in part is no large surprise in and of itself. Gavin Newsome made his comments as an in your face statement to the Heterosexual and Christian Population. Even if you don't want to admit it. Regardless even your comment about us having to recognize you has the same tone. We do recognize you for what you are the Gay and Lesbian Community. You chose that name, you chose that separation, yet now you expect us to open our arms, hearts and minds to an illegal proposition that you may marry. I have news for you, a simple vote won't now change this amendment to the constitution, read your government law, it will take an entirely new vote on the same amendment with a totally different outcome to change it. Do you have any idea how expensive that will be, to accomplish and to risk the fact that in four or five years when it could be heard again that it might not pass in your favor again. Your first wall a 6-1 vote (Continued) "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 28, 2009 2:37 PM:

" To: Melissa wrote on May 27, 2009 6:36 PM

(Continued) Your attorney will have to convince those seven (7) Supreme Court Justices to allow it on the ballot again, Jerry Brown may not be Attorney General by then, so the likelihood of getting it on another ballot are probably slim and none. But if you and the LGBT community, wish to waste millions and millions of dollars, that could have gone to a charity who needs the money even more than you need a right to get married, go right ahead. It just demonstrates how selfish your community is and how it could care less about the Heterosexual population and diseases affecting us all. Each time your attempt goes down in defeat, the easier it will be to keep it defeated. I do believe my two generation rule, because our children were raised to believe as we do and their childrens children will be. Considering that it may never be a reality for you, in your lifetime. You might as well face that now. But no, you wanna throw temper tantrums, claim your rights have been violated, (Continued) "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 28, 2009 2:52 PM:

" To: Melissa wrote on May 27, 2009 6:36 PM

(Continued) When 6 our of 7 Caliornia Supreme Court Jusices say they haven't. You refuse to believe that but when it was 4-3, we were supppose to accept that. Forget this nonsense and give to your favorite charity or spend the money to achieve what ever rights, you claim you are not entitled, to in a civil-union. Many of us face disappointments in life, I'd love to live in a milliion dollar mansion, but that isn't in the cards, so I don't live there, so what, I still live, I still have half way decent health which is getting better every day. How many people can say that?
I think if you wake up in the morning and think on a positive such as you are with the woman you wish to be with instead of negatively because you don't have a piece of paper you can hang on your living room wall. If the paper is that important go to Knott's Berry Farm they print marriage licenses by the gross. I'll tell you now, that paper will not bind your relationship. "

Alihandero wrote on May 29, 2009 1:44 PM:

" Wow!

"Melissa" says

"We are not second class, but on the same class as you and deserve the same civil liberties, civil rights and protection from the law as you do."

...Protection FROM the law? The law persecutes you? Singles you out? Because nature or evolution of the Creator made you a woman and not a man? That's not fair!

I thought we all had equal protection UNDER the law? Laws apply to all of us.

As Watchdog says: you can't have it both ways. You can't change you objections just because the law does not agree with your personal lifestyle.

But I am glad, "Melissa," that you and your lady are happy even without that piece of paper you covet so much.

You do deserve that. "

Melissa wrote on May 29, 2009 5:21 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, now let me understand this, my community is selfish because we donate our money to getting equal rights and not donating to cure disease of the very people whom deny us our rights? Are you serious? Now THAT sounds selfish.
I do not need a paper to bond my relationship Fred, but I do need it for legal protections of my relationship. Yes my girlfriend and I have a great bond, been together three years, and that is not likely to change. What is going to change is that we are not treated equal. "

Melissa wrote on May 29, 2009 5:25 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, As for state government, uhhh I am going for my Bachelor's I have already done that requirement. It can be done, it will be done. Call us selfish if you so please, I already pointed out the selfishness in your own statement, and it does not need to be repeated. I am so glad that the women who wanted to vote did not give up when they were called names, and the African-Americans fought for thier civil right even thru all they endured. If they can do it, we can do it. "

Melissa wrote on May 29, 2009 5:28 PM:

" Ali, yes we all deserve EQUAL protection FROM and UNDER the law. What two ways am I asking for? I am asking for equal rights as a citizen of this country. Keep throwing your God into this, BUT this country allows for Freedom of Religion, and eventually that excuse will run out.

But hey thanks for seeing I deserve to be happy with my girlfriend. I think everyone deserves to have the one they love, to stand by them always. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on May 30, 2009 6:16 AM:

" To: Melissa wrote on May 29, 2009 5:21 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, now let me understand this, my community is selfish because we donate our money to getting equal rights and not donating to cure disease of the very people whom deny us our rights? Are you serious"?

You make a statement like this, and have the nerve no the gall to call us biased and prejudiced? I think not my dear and I mentioned aids which strikes all corners of this revolving planet even and especially the LGBT community. Yet you this loving, kind, caring, lesbian doesn't want to donate for the cure or care of this disease because you are upset with a vote? You finally did it, you played your immature card, one two many times. You can mock diseases around the world, that kill people and I am suppose to turn the other cheek. You have once and for all convinced me, that you are so possessed by this notion, that all common sense has left your being. I might suggest a mild sedative and some sleep to correct this disorder. Glad your happy anyway. "

Melissa wrote on May 31, 2009 9:24 AM:

" Watchdog Fred, lets clear the air, you are the one who stated that we were selfish for raising money to fight for our rights, you are the one that said that shows how much we do not care about the heterosexual community and the diseases that inflict you all. My statement was purely to point out the flaw in your logic. Since you want to throw stones(which is against your religion by the way) I have and always will do my part for charities. I have participated in Hands Across America, Walk America, donated to the starving in Africa, given food to the homeless. I am a kind, caring person who happens to be a Lesbian. The LGBT community has worked for many years with charities that deal with AIDS, and Breast Cancer, two diseases that effect all HUMAN beings. Many, many other gays and lesbians, individually, help and donate to diseases that are important to them just like any other caring heterosexual. You want to make bold statements, yet when you get a response you want to call names and turn it around in a temper tantrum? Who is showing thier immaturity? "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Jun 1, 2009 8:59 AM:

" to Melissa, you errored again in a post to me saying that I equated your love to that of pedophiles, incestous couples, or even people who love animals. Until this post I have never mentioned anything about Homosapien-Animal relationships, another poster might have gone there, but not me. I keep referring to the other types of "love" to see how open you are, and from both yours and jeff's post, I can see that you are only for your cause. jeff had posted that he would be for incestous couples being allowed to marry, but then he added stipulations, that they shouldn't be allowed to have children. Doesn't that then make them second class citizens, based upon both of your definitions? I only try to point out that there are currently laws on the books against gay marriages, polygamy, incest, pedophiles. But if you want me to come over to your side, I have to believe in not infringing on anybodys rights to being with the one they "love". (continued) "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Jun 1, 2009 9:06 AM:

" to Melissa, and jeff, (continue) both of you say between consenting adults, now tell me why you are able to draw that distinction? Is that discrimination? If it isn't then neither is my beliefs against gay marriage.
Melissa, I have never attacked you, but you continue to blurt out and attack those of us that have a different opinion than me.
Now I will be the first to cast a stone a you (and no, according to you and jeff, it is not against my religion, for you say that Jesus died to clear our sins), as I am without sin and I believe the reference you want is "let he without stone cast the first stone". So since YOU think that I am without sin, beware, here comes the first volley of stones! I know it won't happen as I am a sinner, and can only pray that Jesus's death and my belief in him will allow me to enter Heaven. (continued) "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Jun 1, 2009 9:12 AM:

" to Melissa, and jeff, (continue) All of the anti-Prop 8 people say it is about equal rights. Yet all of you jump on the Governor of Nevada because he vetoed a Domestic Partnership bill, maybe he was looking out for the Gay community and didn't want to settle for anything less than Marriage? I don't think so. I also don't think that he was completely against the domestic partnership, but wanted the bill phrased better to ensure the gay community equatable rights. But since I am not a resident of Nevada, I don't really care what the bill did or did not have, as it has no effect on me and I have no effect on it.
Off on a different tangent, my own feelings are that right now we are comparable to the fall of Rome, our morals are non-existent. Everything is equated to sex, as in I can't have a good life unless I am sexy looking enough. Teenage pregnacy is the main news, and everybody thinks it is okay? "

jeff wrote on Jun 1, 2009 12:10 PM:

" NHG,

"jeff had posted that he would be for incestous couples being allowed to marry, but then he added stipulations, that they shouldn't be allowed to have children."

Ummm nope, never said that.

I agree that your religion is definitely in favor of throwing stones at people. I agree that you are without sin but only because sin has never existed and it never will.

"both of you say between consenting adults, now tell me why you are able to draw that distinction?"

I don't, the government does. Personally I say let there be an IQ test that determines when someone should be labeled as an adult. I know teenagers with more intelligence than many "Adults". "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Jun 1, 2009 3:15 PM:

" to jeff, you are correct the exact post that I attributed to you should have actually be addressed to Melissa. But you did condone incestous marriages by responding back in the State ban on gay marriage thread on May 29, 2009 at 2:22PM in that you answered positively that you would support a law that allows anyone to marry their "love". This was in response to my question about, polygamy, pedophiles and incest. So by stating in the affirmative you are approving of polygamist, pedophile and incestous marriages. "

Alihandero wrote on Jun 1, 2009 6:09 PM:

" Hey NotHomeGrown,

You got that 100% right:

That's "jeff," that rascal!

Now you will hear the stock response: "prove it!"

And on this topic - "View Point: Family values of a different kind" - it has already been proven quite nicely. "

Melissa wrote on Jun 2, 2009 8:47 AM:

" NotHomeGrown, what I said was that if incestous couples choose to marry, I would not support them having children, because of the the medical consequences for that child. What they do is their business, but I would not condone them having children. Yes I was referring to Jesus saying Those without sin cast the first stone, thru my interpretation that means until you have your own backyard clean dont go clean your brothers. Jesus in many instances told eveyone to mind thier own p's and q's yet many of you seem to think you will get a free ride to heaven if you make sure everyone else is doing what they are supposed to be. If you want to compare my rights to other, law abiding tax paying citizens fine, however, pedophiles, rapists, adults marrying children have nothing to do with my rights. Like I said, I believe ALL Tax paying, law abiding, ADULTS should have the legal right to marry, take that as you will. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Jun 2, 2009 11:47 AM:

" melissa, (continued) So all felons, and all welfare receipients can't get married as they are not law-abiding, tax-paying adults. So much for you turning the other cheek.

I try my best to tell you how I think that this can be overcome without me sacraficing my beliefs, but you always put it down to it would make you a second class citizen, yet you don't provide any facts for such. I guess all of those people out there who don't graduate from High School are also then considered second class citizens everytime they apply for a job that asks for a High School diploma? That is why we have the word "or" in our customs and laws. By gaining the same rights via a Marriage license, a common law marriage or a domestic partnership does not equate any distinction of class of citizenship. It is only a weak attempt on your behalf to not be willing to compromise.

But you don't see me asking for all of you to be stoned to death for comitting homosexual acts. "

Alihandero wrote on Jun 2, 2009 3:26 PM:

" Well now,

Melissa wrote on Jun 2, 2009 8:47 AM:

"NotHomeGrown, what I said was that if incestous [sic] couples choose to marry, I would not support them having children..."

and

"I would not condone them having children."

Just like homosexuals, Melissa, why don't you believe people in a loving committed incestuous relationship have a basic 'civil right' to have children? Not all children born of incest are genetically doomed to be raving idiots or morons or born with birth defects.

Does that also mean that if they were homosexual incestuous couples you would not support them having children too?

Why do you feel it is OK for you to be so exclusionary and judgemental now, Melissa? "

Melissa wrote on Jun 2, 2009 10:35 PM:

" NotHomeGrown, Your agenda is to prove that I am only willing to support equal rights for myself, and you will say anything to prove that. You are wrong however, I support anyone whom feels they are being discriminated against. Why? Because I know how they feel. Do I think criminals should be given special rights? Nope, why? Because anyone who murders, rapes or hurts a child has something wrong in thier head. They need counseling and should be monitored, why? because they have inflicted pain and emotional turmoil on another human being. Welfare recipients can do what they want, they are still adult citizens, they are just adult citizens down on thier luck, now career welfare recipients? Well there is none anymore, as there is a 5 year limit. Welfare is there to help, not provide permenant income. What does all this have to do with homosexuals having the right to marry? Nothing. Nothing at all except it is your way to prove me wrong. Homosexuals wanting to marry does not hurt anyone, is not taking advantage of anyone, it does nothing but provide us with the same respect, dignity and legal protections you have. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 3, 2009 7:30 AM:

" To:Melissa wrote on May 31, 2009 9:24 AM:

I donate to the USO, VFW, American Legion, DVA, VA Hospitals directly and all other Veteran's organizations. These are all organization's you failed to mention in your donations. Why wouldn't a person who enjoys so many freedome, snd is screamning for more, not give to those who provided the most of them for her?
Next time you are in Fresno, go to the VA see the people and their loses they suffered in the name of freedom. See the loss of limbs, see the young men and women who pay daily for their sacrifice they made defending this country. Then there are the causes that can't be seen that play over and over again in their heads like a first run movie. The inability to sleep at night, because the movie won't shut off. The eye wounds that make it impossible for them to ever see again. Wounds to men that will never allow them to procreate a child for the rest of their lives. You see what these generous people have given up putting a whole new light on your rally Saturday. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 3, 2009 7:33 AM:

" To:Melissa wrote on May 31, 2009 9:24 AM:

That rally wouldn't even have been possible and you might have been speaking German/Japanese/Korean/Chinese or Vietnamese, if not for those gallant young men and women. Your right to assembly would be out the window in a communistic invironment or you all would have become statistics of the latest slaughter. So Thank Your Lucky Stars for who you are. "

Melissa wrote on Jun 3, 2009 9:42 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, I believe I have told you this before, but just in case. Everyday I look at a soldier who sacraficed for my freedom, one who during 911 while all of us civilians sat on our couches watching, pulled burned bodies out of the Pentagon, My uncle survied a bullet in Korea, my Grandfather served in the National Guard and the other in the Army. My brother served in the USMC. You are preaching once again to the choir. I pay my respects to these individuals on a daily basis. Do not assume that because I am a Lesbian I do not have respect for my military and my country. Why you see it fit to question my charity I do not know, maybe perhaps you are trying to paint a picture of me that fits what you think a homosexual is about. The fact is you nothing about me. You made a comment to me about me being a sore loser and have been my whole life, yet you do not know me, never met me and sure know nothing about my whole life. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Jun 4, 2009 9:27 AM:

" IHATE THE WORD COUNT

melissa, it appears that 2 more of my posts didn't make it through the moderator, nothing bad said, but up near the word max of 200. Will try again.

First the easy part. I didn't know that welfare only lasts 5 years, what handout do they get after that? I am sure that they are not joining the workforce (perhaps a small minority). What skills do they have? What job markets are available for them locally? Already we have a high unemployment rate. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Jun 4, 2009 9:35 AM:

" IHATE THE WORD COUNT

melissa, I am not out to prove your agenda, you do that quit well yourself. My agenda is to state my position on the subject and try to provide facts where I can.

Here is your own comment on gay marriage " it does nothing but provide us with the same respect, dignity and legal protections you have"

But aren't you already afforded those same rights and protections? But you are not willing to do what is required of you to get them.

Now do you really think that you getting a gay marriage license will actually give you the same respect as a heterosexual marriage license would give to its receiptients? I think that it will actually harm you more with those that still think that you are forcing you desires over their beliefs.

What is a marriage license, nothing but a piece of paper, but what is the institution of marriage. It is a belief again by the majority of the people in this world that it is a union between a man and woman. "

Melissa wrote on Jun 4, 2009 2:10 PM:

" NotHomeGrown, they started the 5 year term just a few years ago when they started cracking down on welfare fraud. If you pass your term, unless your spouse qualifies (because that is a loop hole) you are cut off from food stamps and cash aid. I am to understand they have programs to help these folks get back on thier feet, such as Welfare to Work and helping them get training. They are required to take part to recieve thier aid, but what they do with it after that is entirely up to them. Unfortunately the unemployment rate does cause a issue for some of these folks who use the welfare system for what it is meant for, some end up working at McDonalds but even most of the burger joints around here can not even hold thier own right now. Our economy is in a bad state for sure. "

Melissa wrote on Jun 4, 2009 7:38 PM:

" NotHomeGrown, if my desire to have the same rights as the rest of my peers is an agenda so be it. Do I think a marriage license will bring respect? Yes I do, if others want to look at it like I took thier rights away because I wanted to marry my girlfriend that is thier choice. No I do not want to have to go thru all the legal process to get SOME of the same rights afforded by a marriage license, I should not have to. You are a citizen and you can marry whom you want, I am a citizen and I should be able to marry whom I want. That is simple. Or so you would think it was, it is those who want to claim it would violate thier religious rights that can not get a grasp on that. For some reason they think Freedom of Religion only applies to them, now I wonder why? HMMMMM "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 5, 2009 11:56 AM:

" To: Melissa wrote on Jun 4, 2009 7:38 PM:


"I am a citizen and I should be able to marry whom I want".

You can marry whomever you want Melissa, as long as it is a man! Otherwise, I refer you to the latest amendment to the California Constitution.

I thought peers, were an equal and mindlike group of people. If they disagree down the most basic principles of morality, are they not different?

peer 2 (pîr)
n.
1. A person who has equal standing with another or others, as in rank, class, or age: children who are easily influenced by their peers.


I was a Captain in the California Cadet Corps, I don't think we were of the same rank. I am a male you are a female. I am very much older than you. I actually live in Hanford, you live in Fresno. Nope, I don't think we are peers. "

Melissa wrote on Jun 5, 2009 2:53 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, where did you get that I live in Fresno? I live right here in Hanford Ca. I have lived here for 10 years, before that I lived in Lemoore for 8. Before that, in Bakersfield and Taft. I have never lived in Fresno. Again, you know nothing about me. Now we may be different ages, my reference to "peers" is that we are all citizens, regardless of age, CIVILIAN status, or where in California we live.

As for your comment I can marry whom I want as long as it is a man, what part of that does not sound like discrimination to you? As long as I do what you say, I can marry? No Fred, I can not marry whom I want, because the person I want to spend the rest of my life with is a woman, and according to your beliefs that is unacceptable so I can not. WOW, I am a legal, consenting adult, yet you still get to tell me how to live my life, there is something seriously wrong with that. I can not change being a Lesbian, I should still be able to marry whom I WANT. "

Alihandero wrote on Jun 5, 2009 5:21 PM:

" Melissa responded to Watchdog with this complaint:

"I can marry whom I want as long as it is a man, what part of that does not sound like discrimination to you?"

It's NOT discrimination, Melissa!

This IS human biology, or nature, or evolution (if you believe so), or creation by the Creator (if you believe so).

Nature isn't politically correct. Biology isn't fair, nor does it endorse what physically cannot be.

Our history has spoken: there will always be a MAN and a WOMAN; they can marry and perpetuate the species. Two men or two women can only pretend at normalcy!

Use another word besides marriage and you will easily get those legal benefits you clamor over; shove it down our throats and you will only foment more social rejection. "

Melissa wrote on Jun 5, 2009 6:15 PM:

" Ali,

You shout "social rejection" but deny discrimination? How can you do that in one sentence and it make sense? What is normal to me may not be normal to you, but that does not make it wrong. Again, you have been proven wrong time and time again, homosexuality is natural, it occurs in nature how is not natural? Just because you believe one thing does not mean you can "cram" it down others throats. This is a FREE country, and freedom and justice will prevail. You said it yourself, we will face "social rejection" if we dont do it your way, I hate to tell you but that is discrimination by definition, your words not mine. "

Alihandero wrote on Jun 5, 2009 7:53 PM:

" Fine, Melissa, OK. I finally get your point.

I used to believe that you were fair-minded and believed - if not in nature or the Creator - in the law.

The CA. law BEFORE was marriage = man & woman only.

The CA. law NOW is marriage = man & woman.

Decided twice by the voters AND finally by the State Supreme Court, Melissa.

The Federal Govt. and President Obama recognize marriage = man & woman.

You are still not satisfied so please continue to cry and moan and plead your case to the people that would normally help you negotiate and compromise your 'unfair condition.'

You apparently cannot live in this democratic republic without getting your way. You refuse to compromise. Fine.

What is right under the law and society is not good enough for you.

That is the real tragedy. "

pickle wrote on Jun 7, 2009 10:05 AM:

" Law changes all the time. We obey the law when its the law but that doesn't make a law right. Its legal to have an abortion right now but I see all the alex's and far right throwing the same tantrum. This is part of the democratic society. When something isn't right you fight politically so to speak. Just like inter-racial marriage, just like womens right to vote, just like any host of other social issues.

Whats funny is alex's and the freds are only for a democratic society when it falls in line with them. Otherwise they want to have some kind of armed revolution. Now talk about un democratic. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 11, 2009 6:48 PM:

" To: pickle wrote on Jun 7, 2009 10:05 AM:

I have responded to your comments twice now, but I guess the Moderator had a bad day out of the office. Anyway, I will put my service, my fathers service, ali's service and his father's service against any comments you want to make about us being undemocratic. We all four fought and stood for this country and all that it stands for and is about. I think that gives us a right to make any statement about any subject we care too, without risk to our place in this democratic society.

We have certain rights that we have fought for and have a right to insist on getting the 1st amendment being one of the most important. Supposedly, even for a newspaper.

So hopefully, the moderator and pickle will post and read this in that particuluar order and take it to heart. Or at least read it with some form of open mindedness.

I have never indicated that I support an uprising of any kind, against our nation. I could solve the nations problems, with the impeachemnt process. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Jun 18, 2009 6:56 PM:

" To: pickle wrote on Jun 7, 2009 10:05 AM:

What you say is not true, according to the Hanford Police Department at any one time in this city, more than 4% of the population, are violating the Seat Belt Law.. . . . . "




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