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Politics Today: Will Democrats use force to pass Obamacare?

What will happen if Democrats try the "go it alone" strategy to pass national health care? That's not even a question in the House, where Speaker Nancy Pelosi has cut Republicans out of the health care issue from the beginning. House Democrats have been going it alone all along, and if they can agree among themselves on a health care bill, it will pass.

But the Senate is another story. Republicans see the Senate as their great hope, and there's no doubt the GOP could do some serious damage to any Democratic bill. But the unpleasant fact for Republicans is, Democrats have the power, on their own, to pass a bill that could ultimately lead to the liberal dream of national health care.

Both Democratic and Republican staffers are studying Senate rules governing the process known as "reconciliation." Those rules allow the Senate to pass some measures with a simple majority of 51 votes, rather than a filibuster-proof 60 votes. Theoretically at least, Democrats could pass a healthcare bill with no Republican, even if some Democrats are not onboard.

But reconciliation is allowed only on proposals that deal directly with the budget or are primarily fiscal in nature. So Democrats could use reconciliation to pass parts of the healthcare bill that have a direct fiscal impact, but not other measures creating things like health care-supervision agencies. If Democrats try to pass measures that are deemed "extraneous," Republicans could object and have the measures stripped from the bill.

That is, for example, what undoubtedly would have happened to the notorious end-of-life provisions that have now been removed from the Senate Finance Committee's bill. In that same way, it's possible Republicans could kill a lot of what is currently in the healthcare-reform proposals. (In addition, any measure passed by reconciliation would be temporary, usually lasting five years.)

The prospect of a paragraph-by-paragraph reconciliation fight has led to what some Republicans call the "Swiss-cheese scenario." Each time Republicans defeat a portion of the bill, they'll poke another hole in the Democrats' ambitions. Poke enough holes, and the Democrats' vaunted health care plan is Swiss cheese.

There's no doubt that prospect scares some influential Democrats. Sen. Robert Byrd is opposed to using reconciliation for health care, calling it "an outrage that must be resisted." Sen. Max Baucus calls it "not a good idea," and Sen. Jay Rockefeller says it could create "a bill that goes nowhere." They're warning their colleagues not to take the go-it-alone route.

But there's another way of looking at it. Sure, Democrats can't get everything they want if they have to go through reconciliation. But look at healthcare reform as an unfinished building. There are plenty of examples of past legislation that began somewhat modestly and expanded as the years went on. The State Children's Health Insurance Program, or SCHIP, has been enormously expanded. Medicare and Medicare are far bigger today than when they were created. Programs grow over time as lawmakers add features and increase eligibility.

The story could be the same for the current healthcare-reform proposals, through which Democrats, with no Republican support, could put in place the basic structure of a national healthcare plan. It doesn't have to be gold-plated, or even finished. That could come later.

"You can build a building that's missing certain features," says one old Senate hand. "Maybe the plumbing's not there, or the wiring.

But the bottom line is, you have laid the foundation, and built the structure, and it becomes easier later on to add the plumbing, and add the wiring. You have set up a structure so that all you have to do in the future is make incremental changes."

Veterans of the Senate tend to flinch from the sort of all-out warfare reconciliation could bring.

But the fact is, reconciliation might in the end be the Democrats' best option. And it might work. Democrats wouldn't get everything they want, but they could create the structure for future growth. Later on, they'll add the plumbing, the wiring -- and maybe a chandelier.

It's precisely that scenario that most terrifies Republicans. Forget about Swiss cheese. Democrats are intent on building something much more substantial, and Republicans don't have the votes to stop them.

Byron York is chief political correspondent for The Washington Examiner.

(Sept. 2, 2009)

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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

Deb wrote on Sep 3, 2009 5:03 PM:

" In the article - toward the end, it states: It's precisely that scenario that most terrifies Republicans. (Reconciliation) But they weren't afraid of it when they used it as a tool to get what they wanted. What's good for the goose.... "

Alihandero wrote on Sep 4, 2009 6:12 AM:

" Well Deb,

I'm not sure what a liberal Democrat would know about Republican fear, but as an Independent I can only guess what that might be.

I asked you before in another forum here what your solutions to this so-called health care crisis would be that is #1. economically and fiscally sound, and #2. would not pass that awful increased public debt onto our children.

What would John Maynard Keynes say, Deb?

Remember he too was very British, like Sir Winston Churchill. Coincidence? "

roflcopter wrote on Sep 4, 2009 11:00 AM:

" it doesnt matter deb when your on the side of jesus god the ghost the light the holiness oneship that is jesus, when your on the side of his holy master then you cant do no wrong deb. obama hates america, god, guns, americans, freedums the only thing he loves is terorwrists "

Alihandero wrote on Sep 5, 2009 4:34 AM:

" roflcopter wrote on Sep 4, 2009 11:00 AM:
"he loves is terorwrists "

ROFLMAO is the only internet compliant term I can interject at this juncture.

Sounds like a British Elmer Fudd is speaking.

Thanx, 'rof!' "

Deb wrote on Sep 5, 2009 10:20 AM:

" you know... I had a very thoughtful post created and submitted - came back 201 words - even though the word count said otherwise AND logged me out. I have to go do things today but will respond later... "

Alihandero wrote on Sep 5, 2009 4:08 PM:

" THAT is one great excuse for not answering my question, Deb, although I never automatically got logged out when over the word limit.

If you were looking for a humoresque rejoinder you could learn much from roflcopter's most excellent prose.

I ask again, what are your solutions, Deb?

Perhaps you have something we all don't readily see.

Perhaps... "

Wacky! wrote on Sep 5, 2009 8:28 PM:

" Should Dems go it alone?

Absolutely! "

manuel wrote on Sep 6, 2009 8:51 PM:

" The Democrats have to go alone, the Republicans are for the rich, they snob the poor, that is why they lost "

Pete wrote on Sep 8, 2009 8:07 AM:

" Actually, Republicans are for people who work hard and pay their own way. They happen to be rich because they work hard. Pick five people you consider rich and see if you work half as hard as they do. "

Deb wrote on Sep 8, 2009 5:02 PM:

" Alihandero I'm back and have a few moments. I lost a post - didn't choose to copy before clicking submit, who cares - I certainly didn't have to reply at all. I was attempting to be polite, but I'll simply not do that again.

FIRST - Given my life (can only attest to me) I'm a democrat - Why? Because I have an absolute distrust in an unfettered capitalist nation where no one is looking out for the people. True unregulated capitalism is usually about the $ and RARELY about the people. History dictates that story.

I expect government to intervene when it is in the people’s best interest.

Health care without the insurance industries rationing of services, denial of services, denial of insurance is absolutely in the people’s interest.

Since we are not entertaining Universal Health Care which is government run, then what is it that's being entertained.

We are the only country in the world to tie health benefits via insurance to working. (continued) "

Skip wrote on Sep 8, 2009 5:09 PM:

" Work hard and pay your own way, what a concept! Better than hearing about a new government hand out and saying "show where to sign up". Or, raise the tax on rich people so I can leech off them. "

Deb wrote on Sep 8, 2009 5:38 PM:

" (continued)
The hullabaloo is over the public option - Well, I believe a public option (as long as we are retaining insurance companies) is about the only way to competitively reign in costs and ensure competition.

No where has it been stated that the public option would be free. The house and senate versions have varying #'s but there is a cost factor.

If you want to further inform yourself here you can look at some variables and comparisons: http://www.kff.org/healthreform/sidebyside.cfm


Do I have all the answers - nope and neither does anyone else... However discourse is important, even if it means discussing things with those who make you uncomfortable.

What I do know is that currently our taxes pay for the uninsured and under-insured. The first things hospitals do is attempt to seek some sort of source for them to obtain payment - usually they attempt to ascertain whether one is eligible for Medi-cal (here in CA) and if so up go your taxes. If not then they are on the hook for the costs - all of them.(continued) "

Deb wrote on Sep 8, 2009 5:49 PM:

" (continued)In fact - insurance is almost just like a tax - let's call it what it is.

We've got medicare and medicaid/medi-cal which is paid for by taxes.

Then employer based insurance almost always has an amount that the employee must pay - no choice means it's basically a tax - it's withheld and thus the employer pays it's portion and the employee pays their portion - not for health care but for "access" to health care some or part of the time - depends upon some corporate entity who hires folks to deny coverage and claims.

REALLY what it is, is a so called benefit created to avoid payroll taxes by corporate america who hired tons of tax lawyers just to evade taxes legally. NOW, if the employer pays the premium to the employee then they'd have to pay payroll taxes on that portion paid to the employee OOPS someone came up with the cafeteria plans - withhold money from the paycheck and then get reimbursed from the $ you had withheld and don't pay taxes. ALL of these are legal tax avoidance schemes created by corporate america(continued) "

Deb wrote on Sep 8, 2009 5:59 PM:

" (continued)So - let's just call it a tax. And with that, I say pay for the public option via taxes.

Now - back to the public option - yea, you will be taxed. And, the larger the group accepted into the public option, the better because it will spread risk.

So, now you've an idea of how this democratic liberal feesl. I'm for people and yes, I think being able to live is a right - being blocked access to care is wrong, period especially if you understand that Insurance CEOs are making 3000 times of that of their average paid employ. That the profits on the backs of people being denied claims are being fed to politians in the billions of dollars a day.

Corporate greed at it's best. on the backs of the american public and insurance is called a beneift. As John Stossel would say - give me a break. So, have at it Alihandero... "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 8, 2009 8:01 PM:

" The Democrats in their infinite wisdom should vote this in against the majority of the population. This then would put into place a ferver to replace them in 2010 like they have never known before on the floor and halls of congress and the senate.

I predict a revolution by the voting public like we have never seen before. I picture more independents, Republicans and true Representatives of the people and by the people to be elected in 2010.

All the excuses and sissy politicians will be once and for all history and the lobbyist will be defeated through stronger moral values and self reliance by those elected to serve we the people.

This has to happen we must hang on for one more year so we may oust such wonderful people as Pelosi, Franks, Feinstein and 90 percent of the feel good give-a-way partnerships in both houses.

Put them on the bus and we need to put a cap on the President's expenditures of money and time of federal employees for his and his wifes personal enjoyment. What tax paying citizen could spend a million dollars on a date? "

Deb wrote on Sep 8, 2009 8:48 PM:

" Skip wrote on Sep 8, 2009 5:09 PM:
" Work hard and pay your own way, what a concept! "

You're right, Skip - what a concept - how about this concept: Work hard, pay your own way, find out insurance companies control affordable access to health care. Work hard, pay your own way until of course you owe $150000 on a emergency room visit and you've just lost your home.

IF it were as simple as many people imply here - there'd be answers we could all agree on.

But, when I see something like this... it makes me ill.

"In the past 18 months, California's five largest insurers paid almost $19 million in fines for marooning policyholders who had fallen ill. That includes a $1 million fine against Health Net, which admitted offering bonuses to employees for finding reasons to cancel policies, according to company documents released in court. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/07/AR2009090702455.html


What part exactly does working hard and paying your way have to do with Insurance companies denying claims? Paying bonuses? "

Skip wrote on Sep 9, 2009 2:35 PM:

" You ought to try it, it works!! "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 9, 2009 2:41 PM:

" let's see if this makes it or not?
to Deb,

Your posts have been great, posting facts rather than feelings. Yes it is bad that insurance companies are able to cancel someones policy for the slightest of reasons. And yes I would support health care reform that attacks that. Reform that allows you to take your insurance with you or to change over to a new policy regardless of pre-exisiting conditions.

But I am against the government trying to take over the health care business. You think greed is bad now, wait until the government takes over and you would rather have the greed rather than the red tape. And it will be like everything else, those that work get less, while those who don't contribute get everything. "

Pete wrote on Sep 9, 2009 3:40 PM:

" Right on Skip! Deb, as a true Democrat, loves hand-outs. But, if people would work hard and pay their own way, we could save a lot of money. I will NOT allow this health care bill pass in it's current form! "

SuziQ wrote on Sep 9, 2009 3:42 PM:

" Hey Deb, if a person makes over $75,000.00 per year and doesn't have health insurance because they don't want to pay for it, that is their choice. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 9, 2009 5:30 PM:

" The problem with insurance companies and any state or federal company approach to our healthcare is this, put simply:

Any and all agencies involved with healthcare want to be for profit agencies. As long as profits are the bottom line then that will be the main concern. Not our care, not our children's care or any one else's especially seniors healthcare.

When someone outside the family can make a determination of procedural medicine, the decision will always fall on the profit side of the for profit company.

People don't deal with human beings they deal with statisticts and keeping their overall costs down below a certain level.

If your treatment puts them over that level, then the services you need will not be approved or paid for by them.

Medicare isn't excepted at the VA or any other government ran agency, yet the premium continues to come out of our pockets. We don't get a refund of premium because we use a government facility, we get charged off twice and now they have approved a third charge against our primary care providersinsurance. No win for consumers. "

Alihandero wrote on Sep 9, 2009 5:36 PM:

" Thanks for your detailed response, Deb.

First, lets talk about Catastrophic Health Care Insurance since you mentioned that "expensive $150,000 on a emergency room visit and you've just lost your home."

Insurance is based upon a business model where risks are calculated and policies issued or denied based upon Actuarial Data and the ability to spread policy claims over many subscribers. In that it is a for-profit business in the private sector and part of the American economic landscape.

And as far as denial of services and policies, especially government-run insurance plans, let me remind you that even Medicare and MediCal/Medicaid deny policy applications and services they specifically do not cover.

What you and the liberal progressives want - and Obamacare contains - is actually a welfare plan for people who have a health care catastrophe in their lives.

So if the American people think this is good, lets find a way to fund it and not pass the costs onto our kids. "

Deb wrote on Sep 10, 2009 10:03 AM:

" NHG wrote: But I am against the government trying to take over the health care business. You think greed is bad now, wait until the government takes over and you would rather have the greed rather than the red tape. And it will be like everything else, those that work get less, while those who don't contribute get everything. "

What part of health care reform is taking over the heath care business?

Can you point out one area where the government has taken over anything and squashed it's competition? "

Deb wrote on Sep 10, 2009 10:14 AM:

" SuziQ wrote on Sep 9, 2009 3:42 PM:
" Hey Deb, if a person makes over $75,000.00 per year and doesn't have health insurance because they don't want to pay for it, that is their choice. "

And your point?


What about the person who makes $75K and can't get insurance for whatever reason the insurance companies decide? What about those people? "

Deb wrote on Sep 10, 2009 10:17 AM:

" Pete wrote on Sep 9, 2009 3:40 PM:
" Right on Skip! Deb, as a true Democrat, loves hand-outs. But, if people would work hard and pay their own way, we could save a lot of money. I will NOT allow this health care bill pass in it's current form! "

Pete glad to the health care reform bill is up to you...

Well, enough humor - I'd like to know exactly where you get from my posts that I love hand-outs?

Oooohhh... it must have been when I spoke about the public option and you scanned the post and missed the part where I say people will have to pay. "

Paul wrote on Sep 10, 2009 1:33 PM:

" Alihandero wrote on Sep 4, 2009 6:12 AM:


What would John Maynard Keynes say, Deb?

Remember he too was very British, like Sir Winston Churchill. Coincidence? "

May I ask a question of you? And if you answer with a quote from "a British Elmer Fudd" or King Leonidas, I'll understand.

It is obvious to me and probably to others that you love all things British.

Why are you here in Hanford? "

Paul wrote on Sep 10, 2009 1:54 PM:

" Deb wrote on Sep 10, 2009 10:17 AM:


"Pete glad to the health care reform bill is up to you...

Well, enough humor -"

I'm with you Deb. The post here are rather humorous. Sometimes I wonder if they are hooked up to radios and earphones 24/7 like some of the kids I see running around here.

I honestly want to know if they re- read what they write or are they soooo into their feelings that NOTHING else can get in. Not even the truth.

But now that we have a czar for, health care, religion, handouts, those making over 75,000 a year, government take overs, oh, and a true British czar, why stop the humor?

Come on, "bring it on." "

SuziQ wrote on Sep 10, 2009 1:54 PM:

" Sorry, I thought you knew Deb. Of the 47 million people Obama says has no health insurance, 10 million of them make over $75,000.00 per year. "

mikeybucs wrote on Sep 10, 2009 3:27 PM:

" SuziQ wrote on Sep 10, 2009 1:54 PM:
" Sorry, I thought you knew Deb. Of the 47 million people Obama says has no health insurance, 10 million of them make over $75,000.00 per year. "

SuziQ, what about the folks in that $75,000-and-over category who have pre-existing conditions and can't obtain insurance in the private market? This is not a niche group. Insurance companies will deny coverage for any conceivable reason. What, specifically, are these people to do if they get cancer (or any other life-threatening ailment that cannot be adequately treated in an ER). I've been eagerly anticipating a response from somebody on the right that addresses this issue. All I've heard so far is rhetoric that amounts to "not our problem" or "too expensive." In other words, "Well, too bad, let 'em die." There are a lot of Republicans whom I respect, but overall their conduct throughout this whole debate has just been shameful. "

Deb wrote on Sep 10, 2009 3:38 PM:

" Suzi Q - would love to hear your sources. Or are you ashamed to post them? "

Loanman wrote on Sep 10, 2009 5:18 PM:

" While that is true, Suzi, there are many people who pay their own health care. Of course there are wealthy, they have to be if they get sick. Everybody knows that. "

Skip wrote on Sep 10, 2009 8:11 PM:

" Suzi, that is because 47 million don't HAVE health insurance, but only 30 million CAN"T GET health insurance. The people you're talking about are in the 47 million without. "

Deb wrote on Sep 10, 2009 11:10 PM:

" Well, SuzieQ, I found a reliable source and you're close -
Among the 46.340 million uninsured, there were also 9.725 million who earned more than $75,000 per year, says the most recent Census Bureau report.

I won't split hairs over that.

One of the major equations which might justify your position is missing data - you know, that data never asked.

In fact - the Census Bureau acknowledges they don't ask "why".

So you inject your purported truth and claim those 9.725 million do not have insurance because of their own choice. And I challenge you on that. Please provide facts to support your position.

Or do you simply enjoy spewing opinions? "

SuziQ wrote on Sep 11, 2009 8:01 AM:

" Deb, you and I have been lied to about the Obama health care bill. The truth is coming out as people learn and I hope you understand the truth before you decide if the bill is good for our nation. I'm glad Pete brought some humor to the discussion, he can say he won't allow the bill to pass in it's current form because he knows there will be changes. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 11, 2009 2:59 PM:

" Deb,
Obviously you are not a Vet that requires assistance from the VA, nor do you deal with business as conducted by the government. Lots and lots of red tape involved before you get what you need. And yes if the health plan does come with a public option, don't you think that will eventually kill off competition? After all the government will be able to just print more money to pay for it's inflated program, but businesses can't do that and will go out of business, because they won't be able to offer coverage that costs billions, but only charges millions.

I will repeat again that I am for Health Care Reform, but in perhaps smaller steps then this grandeous cureall being presented. If it only needs a bandange then that is all that it gets, not liposuction and a tummy tuck while we are footing the bill. "

ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 11, 2009 8:16 PM:

" I'd really like to see our VA hospitals dramatically improved. The fact that both Republicans and Democrats alike have failed to address this area is very disappointing and should be worked on by both parties... That is if they ever would consistenly go to work, stop screwing each other, and shut up and do what they are paid for which is work to make real improvements to our Country. "

Deb wrote on Sep 11, 2009 8:20 PM:

" NHG - You're speaking as if there's no red tape now... I know and have experienced insurance companies and I know it's not going to meet everyone's expectations - what plan would that would be cost effective? I have not however experienced the VA. I do know there's been injustices which have occurred and have wrote to my representatives as a result of that knowledge.

And yes, I do believe that a public option would add competition. It has to be a plan large enough to spread risk ( coops do not do that - look at coop history).

Please provide an example of the governent toppling an industry they went up against, side by side.

The President used an example I used some time ago. And that's the example of public colleges - You know... schools like FSU. Non public colleges are doing quite well right next to their counterparts. Public schools raise fees just as private schools do - they balance the budge and continue to have full campuses.

There's not one person who has put forth an example of a govt run program that stifled competition. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 13, 2009 4:43 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Sep 11, 2009 8:20 PM:

I ask you to take a serious look at anything operated and serviced by the government. A good place to start is our mail system, which most will have to admit leaves a lot to be desired in the service department. They are in direct competition with UPS and Federal Express and who do you think does the more professional and accountable service? It isn't the USPS, I guarantee you that one, brown will win every time.

You have not be subjected to state run or federally run healthcare so you can't make that judgement. I actually fall on the Federal side on this one, but for the specified treatment of service members only. I wouldn't intrust the life of my wife in their system, I've seen too many flaws and have suffered more illness with their cures. Although I will say those that work there truly seem to care more about the patients than most privately owned and operated hospitals. But there is caring about and there is care provided. They often are not the same. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 13, 2009 7:05 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Sep 11, 2009 8:20 PM:

I beg to differ, the "Cash for Clunkers" program has just about stifled the flow of used or remanufactured parts off the shelves of dealers nation wide. How do they recoup from this start wholesaling their inventories and stocking up on new car parts before they even become used? Do you know what limitations that will place on their inventories?

Now, the auto industry is calling back all these automakers on assembly lines to make new automobiles only to be laid off when the lot inventories are resupplied. Because now that Cash for Clunkers is over, so is the nationwide demand.

If a National Insurance Plan is put in place that receives as much participation can the Insurance Companies stand to lose half a million customers and survive? Everyone seems to think there is so much profit in insurance, yet someone is paying those insurance claims to the hospitals and doctors. Someone is paying for the administration of all those forms and documents required by Medicare. Hospitals and Doctors are having to hire more medical billers than nurses and care providers. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 13, 2009 7:11 PM:

" Furthermore, let the Democrats force something through the people are so against. Then watch the polling stations in 2010 and see how many Democrats lose their beloved seats in the Senate and Congress. As Clint might say; Go ahead and make my Day!

That would probably do more to bring this country back to its' senses than anything the present administration has put on the table as of yet. People who haven't even gotten on Medicare are already cursing it, so keep feeding people the government when they want medicince and you'll see what happens!

You don't have to initiate a government hospitilization plan to monitor or provide affordable healthcare. All you have to do is for once and for all grab hold of the insurance companies and audit them and see what is actually happening. But don't stop there, audit doctors, hospitals the whole kit and caboodle and find solutions within the system. Eliminate the Fraud, and you'll find affordable healthcare for all those entitled to it. Quit being the Emergency Room for Mexico and provide emergency services to legitimate citizens. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 14, 2009 1:02 PM:

" since it was mentioned here, does anyone want to really claim victory for the Cash for Clunkers? If so are you Japanese by birth? Look at the breakdown of data, old American cars traded in for Japanese cars, primarily Toyota's and then Hondas. How well did GM do on this deal, pretty lousy from what I understand.

Just like a previous thread where I put down the Bush incentive, too many people helped out the Chinese economy by buying flat screen TV's so they could keep up with the Jones'. Instead the majority of people should have used that money to vacation in the good ol U.S. of A. That way you are paying primarily for the service industry which is here in the U.S. Eat at a resturaunt, tip the food server, stay at a Motel 6 or hotel of your choice. A larger chunk of that money stays here recirculating through the grocery stores, gas stations, etc.

Now we have helped the Japanese solve their unemployment figures. "

Paul wrote on Sep 15, 2009 1:28 PM:

" SuziQ wrote on Sep 11, 2009 8:01 AM:

" Deb, you and I have been lied to about the Obama health care bill. The truth is coming out as people learn and I hope you understand the truth before you decide if the bill is good for our nation. I'm glad Pete brought some humor to the discussion, he can say he won't allow the bill to pass in it's current form because he knows there will be changes. "

You say that you have been lied to. Can you give us ONE clear lie?

Something that we can find on an actual document and not what is written for beck, hannity
oe spewed on fox or from one of those crazy people that go to tea parties.

or like Deb asked, "do you simply enjoy spewing opinions? " "

Deb wrote on Sep 15, 2009 8:55 PM:

" Paul, that's called a hit and run post from SuziQ.

Her post reminds me of something heard this evening on talk radio - (nope, not local favorites like Rush or Hannity)

The person calling in swore over and over that Obama lied and even went so far as say factcheck.org said the president lied. The Host called him on it as the station brought up factcheck.org on their computer - the caller then said he wasn't going to let some !@#!@# host insult his intelligence. Well, ya can't go and say those things on radio and they cut him off. The point is, there's really nothing anyone can say to people who base fact on feelings.

I'm not 100% right all the time and fully admit to being human and thus being wrong but in a discussion I try to find and present fact which supports my opinion. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 16, 2009 9:48 AM:

" to Paul,

What exactly is wrong with using Hannity, Beck, O'Reiley or anyone else from Fox? Show me somewhere where Glenn Beck has ever posted anything that is a lie?

Then tell me why only Fox was reporting anything about 9/12, yet you and others try to write it off as "crazy white men". I will admit that it looked like the majority of people there were older white people, but there were other generations, genders and races included.

While I am addressing you, I am not sure if you have made comments about Bush and Patriot Act, but gee wheez, Obama is going to extend it as he sees that it is necessary. So if you support Obama, doesn't that mean that you will then have to flip flop and support Bush since he was the "creator" of the Act? "

Alihandero wrote on Sep 16, 2009 3:21 PM:

" Right on, NotHomeGrown!

The libs here also forget about the current surprising* ACORN scandal which proves graphically and very publicly the corruption of that questionable outfit.

I'll wager we will now see a raft of desperate defenses for this community activist organization from our 'usual suspects' but at least one good item has come out of this expose:

The U.S. The Census Bureau last Friday severed its ties with ACORN.

This can only add to a much more accurate and valid count, don't you agree?

Perhaps there is hope for a just future for all Americans!
_______________

(* or perhaps 'not so surprising?') "

SuziQ wrote on Sep 16, 2009 4:09 PM:

" When someone tells me 2 plus 2 equals 5, I don't believe them. I assume the other people see it my way and if they don't they will ask me to "point out ONE lie". "

Pete wrote on Sep 16, 2009 5:28 PM:

" Bet Joe Wilson could give us "ONE clear lie... "

ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 16, 2009 6:35 PM:

" OK, I'll ask, do you anti-bush and anti-patriot people feel tapping phone calls between people in the US and people in Afganistan right after the 9/11 attack is REALLY a problem? "

Deb wrote on Sep 16, 2009 6:51 PM:

" NHG - I understand your post was to Paul - but here's an answer for your question: "Show me somewhere where Glenn Beck has ever posted anything that is a lie?"

He said that no other President had never been sworn into office without a Bible. He said he 'checked'.
He did not check or he would have found this:
John Qunicy Adams used a law book.
Franklin Pierce didn't even swear. He affirmed.
Teddy Roosevelt used no Bible.
Several Presidents kissed a Bible but did not swear on one.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/pihtml/pinotable.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/22/AR2009012203769.html
-----------------------------------------------
Glenn Beck lied when he said recently that $1.4 million of stimulus momey was used to repair a door at Dyess AFB. The doors repaired were aircraft hangar doors and the cost was not $1.4 million.
The cost was $246000 out of $1.4 million in repairs funding.
----------------------------------------------

In June Beck lied when he said that the US was the ONLY country that had a natural birthright provision. Here is the list of other countries that do:
http://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/issues/birthright-citizenship/nations-observing-birthright-citizenship.html
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jun/19/glenn-beck/glenn-beck-claims-us-only-country-automatic-citize/ "

Deb wrote on Sep 16, 2009 7:12 PM:

" More on Glenn Beck:



Beck warned people not to go on the "cash for clunker's" govt. site, because there is a privacy act you have to agree to before you get your cash wherein the govt. can access your computer and get any information on you they want. This was a lie. The privacy act that has to be agreed to is on the site for DEALERS participating in this program, not citizens trading in their clunkers.
http://www.snopes.com/computer/internet/clunkers.asp

------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_f61ClxwAI

There's more, but I tried to capture the most blatant ones. There are truly rational people who believe he'd never lie. And he does and has as a regular course of business.

Fox - well they even alter photographs and video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCQ4gAAVW2k&feature=related

This is one example - playing into the psychology of folks. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 17, 2009 3:30 PM:

" to Deb, I guess you have assigned me some homework, I will need to investigate and see if what you have posted is factual.

But first a couple of things, I don't understand the Bible one, since I would think that someone is trying to infer something about Obama, but Obama used a Bible that Lincoln used if my memory serves me right.

And no other news network has ever lied or altered photos or even video? I am not trying to use this as an excuse, because if Beck/Fox did post lies, then they should be held liable.

But I will say that any of the programs of Glenn Beck that I have seen has he ever lied, so obviously I didn't see any of the ones that you have referred to, and were they his tv or radio, since I don't listen to his radio show. "

ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 17, 2009 8:34 PM:

" There is a difference between making a factual mistake by accident (no intent) and when telling an intentional lie. Obama stated that he wanted to reduce abortions but by executive order he has now increased them. An executive order seems pretty intentional to me.

"President Obama on Friday lifted a ban on federal funding for international groups that promote or perform abortions, reversing a policy of his predecessor, George W. Bush" (Fox News)

So everyone, Obama is a liar. "

Deb wrote on Sep 19, 2009 11:45 PM:

" NHG - didn't think anyone would see this as it had gone beyond the main 15 day listing. But, I will say the one that had me incensed me was the one about warning people to not go to cars.gov.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWs12ccbOiE

This type of blatant mis-information is done to create fear of the supposed "government takeover". Much like Palin repeated the "palling around with terrorists" statement over and over

Anytime one deals with the feds and contracts yea, the govt has access. IF they didn't do that then they'd be blamed for not doing it.

Cars.gov was a green website, the dealer website was blue with an obvious link to the consumer website.

http://www.cars.gov/dealersupport

That's one example. The other ones posted are all from his TV show I believe vs radio. "

Deb wrote on Sep 20, 2009 12:21 AM:

" Here's a youtube video about Obama being sworn in without a bible (the 2nd time)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW_jqQiXuVU

What gets me and is the biggest lie is he says no other president has not been sworn in without a bible or something to that effect and that he'd checked.

People trust him to tell them the truth and he didn't check. Saying he checked was said to assure people he knew what he was talking about.

Hope the links added help you with your search to prove me wrong. If you find something I'll be interested in reading it. "

Alihandero wrote on Sep 21, 2009 4:33 AM:

" Deb wrote on Sep 20, 2009 12:21 AM:
" Here's a youtube video about Obama being sworn in without a bible…
What gets me and is the biggest lie is he says no other president has not been sworn in without a bible or something to that effect..."

You consider THAT a big lie, Deb? Wow, what a whopper!

While you drone on about a mistake Glenn Beck made about which President swore in on what Bible, consider the lies made by a former highest elected law enforcement official in the United States: Bill Clinton.

Impeached, disgraced, a liar, accused sexual predator, serial adulterer, but welcomed back into the fold by the liberal Democrat political machine in America.

Yeah Deb, that Glenn Beck entertainer guy on Fox is really very, very bad dude!


P.S.

Deb, I really wonder why Sarah Palin gets under your skin so much...

Was she that much a threat to the women of America?

I guess you don't agree with her moral fiber either, right? "

deb wrote on Sep 22, 2009 12:26 PM:

" Alihandero - what are you asking? I do believe I'm so inferior I don't understand your questions. NHG asked what GB has EVER lied about. I pointed it. I pointed out he attempts to alarm and inflame based upon dishonesty.

SP doesn't affect me one bit - she's an idiot who can't form a cohesive thought and transmit it. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 25, 2009 11:00 AM:

" to deb,

I tried to get a response to your statements about Beck, but have no response. So for the time being I will have accept you post in its entirety, but still hope that someday I will be able to respond with all of the facts. I don't know if Beck ever made statements to retract any information that was posted or said erroneously either. Or that perhaps what he stated may have been taken out of context. For example since I didn't participate in the cash for clunkers, I don't know if his statements were true, or as you have stated that the website was only for the dealers. And if so, then perhaps his comments were directed to the dealers, I don't know.

But I still enjoy Mr. Beck's newsletter, and so far in that I haven't seen any false statements, and usually he has the references to prove his statements. "

Deb wrote on Sep 28, 2009 10:14 AM:

" NHG - that's fine... this blog will soon go into thin air. The days of reporting news is gone... it's filled with so much opinion it's difficult to pull out opinion vs fact. And, we all tend to believe those who we are drawn toward for whatever reason.

In this day and age the line between news and entertainment is way too close. We all have to remember that the media is fighting for viewers and most often it's the entertainers who draw the #'s. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 29, 2009 12:50 PM:

" to Deb,

I know that Glenn Beck has called himself a "rodeo clown", but I do still consider him as a reporter since he does try his best to provide facts and sources.

Yes he is conservative, and he makes no bones about it. He attacks both Republicans and Democrats, though more so against the left since he leans more to the right.

But to me he is right on so many things. There appears to be a sentiment amongst some if you say anything about Obama you are a racist or a bigot, but within the past 8 years those same people were saying and doing the same to Bush / Cheney. For example, some are upset about the rendering of Obama as the Joker, but where was the deafening cry when the left did the same to Rumsfield. I personally think that both depictions are bad taste, for as I always say, state the facts and stay away from name calling. "

Deb wrote on Sep 29, 2009 4:20 PM:

" NHG - you may or may not be interested in this article. I post it not to influence but to provide more information. I don't know that much about Beck, myself, but I'm of the opinion that he's very much on the fringe. There may be common sense periodically but anytime one uses unfounded fear to attempt to persuade that spells fringe to me. So I became curious and googled and arrived upon this article. I would imagine salon (which I don't normally read) would be considered a liberal site simply because this type of article was there. But it is well written, with a number of citations. I enjoy learning about people in an attempt to understand them.

You may take it with a grain of salt.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/09
/16/beck_skousen/index1.html# "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 1, 2009 10:06 AM:

" to Deb, I couldn't go exactly to the url that you posted but did get to the following:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/09/16/beck_skousen/index.html

Until this article I had never heard or read Beck to reference this book, but rather he references many books of people that he has on his show.

The other funny thing about the article is the picture (though it does say it is a composite), throws up suppossed placards that just so happen to in foucus while the rest of the picture is out of focus. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 1, 2009 12:44 PM:

" to Deb,

now here is a url for you to check out:

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/31387/ "

Deb wrote on Oct 1, 2009 12:48 PM:

" NHG - I think it was the quotation mark at the end of my link which hampered you in getting to the site.

What articles like this do for me is lead me in directions I'd never thought to go before.

What most probably don't believe is that I'm rather conservative in many areas - I do listen to conservative people - but tend to find others to listen to when it goes bizarre. Where I'm very liberal is that I refuse to judge others by my own morals. I will stand by them to obtain the freedom to be who they are and ensure they receive the same rights as myself and others. "




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