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California Focus: Obama must include illegals in California calculations

The statistics from the U.S. Census Bureau and the federal Centers for Disease Control make it clear there's as compelling need for health care reform in California as anywhere in this country.

Since 2000, for example, average health insurance premiums paid by and for families in this state are up 114 percent to about $13,000 per year, with more than one in five families forced to spend 15 percent of their income on health care.

President Obama contends his health care plan would ease those problems greatly, with the competitive insurance exchange he envisions -- with or without a publicly-owned choice -- holding down premiums both for employers and buyers of individual policies and for more than 5 million California families who would suddenly become eligible for tax credits on premiums they pay.

He also claims his plan would greatly up the number of small businesses providing insurance to employees. Where only about 46 percent of small businesses offer coverage now, the claim is that would rise by at least 10 percent under a reform plan.

But there remain some holes Obama needs to fill in his estimates of how California would benefit from reform; these mostly involve illegal immigration.

Obama adamantly insists his plan would in no way benefit illegal immigrants, but it's hard to see how one of his central claims can be accurate so long as he ignores the large populace of illegals in this state, variously estimated at between 1.8 million and 2.5 million persons.

"Right now," says the White House position paper on how the Obama reforms would help Californians, "providers lose over $5.1 billion in bad debt which often gets passed to families in the form of a hidden premium 'tax.' Health insurance reform will tackle this financial burden by ... covering the uninsured, allowing the 355 hospitals and 115,740 physicians in California to better care for their patients."

That "hidden tax" amounts to about $1,400 per year in added expense for every current policy holder in California. The clear implication is that pass-through charges for indigents using emergency rooms will disappear if and when everyone has health insurance.

But that can only be true if everyone is covered. As long as the plan excludes illegals -- and there's no way any plan covering them could get through Congress -- it won't eliminate a major portion of the expenses creating the "hidden tax" in California.

For very few illegals have health insurance. But courts have ruled repeatedly that hospitals cannot turn them away from emergency rooms, the venue they generally must use because doctors and ordinary hospital admissions officials usually demand proof of insurance before providing care.

This makes it plain a healthy chunk of the $5.1 billion "hidden tax" will still be out there even if some form of the Obama plan takes effect. What remains unknown is who will pick up that tab: Will it be the federal or state government or will hospitals and emergency room doctors still be stuck with those billions of dollars, which would likely be passed on to insurance customers much as they are today? There can be no accurate assessment of the Obama plan's California effects unless he addresses the illegal immigrant expense.

Then there are his claims that preventive care will reduce the California health care tab. His report correctly notes that 15 percent of children here are obese, while 17 percent of women over 50 in this state have not had mammograms in the past two years and 40 percent of men over 50 have never undergone a colonoscopy. Getting more Californians health coverage, the paper claims, will reduce expenses caused when illnesses become advanced because they went undetected in their early stages.

Two problems here: First, no one knows how many of those un-scanned men and women are illegal immigrants who would not be covered under the Obama plan and whose coverage would therefore not change. Second, the Congressional Budget Office maintains things like free mammograms, diabetes and colon cancer tests for all would likely end up costing more than treating problems as they arise. And third, no one knows how many of the untested men and women would opt for those exams even if they were completely free.

Still, there's little doubt that, as Obama claims, many Californians need more preventive care and better insurance coverage overall, at a price they can afford.

With at least 60,000 children due to be dropped from the state's Healthy Families program by Oct. 1 and as many as 610,000 more set to be dumped by next July, there's little doubt California needs something new and better.

But it would be wrong to portray the current Obama estimates of what his plan would do for California as anywhere near accurate and complete, if only because they ignore at least one gigantic elephant that's seated right in the middle of the state's living room.

Thomas D. Elias is a syndicated columnist on California issues.

(Sept. 8, 2009)

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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

Deb wrote on Sep 8, 2009 10:34 PM:

" Ah yes.. this means illegal immigration will have to be dealt with. All the politicians are going to have to face illegal immigration at some point - this is a good time to do it even though no one wants to do it.

Lets see - force a Country responsible to be responsible for it's citizens. Just like the feds do with the States - (when the States don't do what the feds want they with hold monies, services what have you,) Send the country a bill - lets not stop at health care though, lets go for the cost of imprisionment as well for the debts of the other countries people. Guess we could subtract the illegal immigration cost from the treasury securities they hold amounting to 34.9 billion dollars - oops does that mean they've fed 34.9 billion dollars into our economy?

It's a fact that illegals do work - they don't file tax returns though and the money with held is never claimed through refunds. Nor would the insurance premiums.ut, CA and the Feds do need to account for those who do and will visit hospitals yet not have insurance. "

Americantaxpayer wrote on Sep 9, 2009 3:04 AM:

" Until you enforce our immigration laws and start deporting these illegals, our state will never be able to fix our medical insurance problems and all the other problems that are facing our state. Medical insurance and good medical care is greatly needed. Forcing the children off the Healthy Families Program will be a death sentence for some of them currently receiving urgent care. Most employers do not offer health insurance and if they do, it’s generally too expensive or provides only limited coverage which you can’t use. If you’re going to fix this medical problem, we need to first clean house before we can fix it! Stop providing schooling, section 8, food stamps, cash aid and medi-cal and you'll see the difference in a few months! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 9, 2009 5:48 PM:

" I have no problem with anyone receiving emergency medical care through our hospital system. What I do have a problem with, is once they come forward and receive this care deportation should immediately take place upon their completed care at the emergency room. They should be limited to this care and this deportation plan one time and one time only, if they are found in this country again they should be put on a repeat offender list and deported again and be required to serve time in a Mexican/South American Prison; Perhaps (5 years).

I also believe that peace officers of all types city, state and federal should be educated in how to arrest and deal with an illegal immigrant to have them processed back into their country of origin. We should not fill our hospitals and prisons with people who are in this country illegally. Regardless of benefit received from their working here, they are taking jobs legalized citizens could and would fill if given the opportunity.

The hogwash needs to quit being spread about their value and they need to be treated like all other criminals who break our laws. "

Alihandero wrote on Sep 9, 2009 6:00 PM:

" Does anyone here believe that the liberal progressives will DENY any of this new health care for illegal aliens?

Show of hands... "

mandaa wrote on Sep 10, 2009 9:15 AM:

" or...about all the money spent on ink and paper to translate everything is spanish. my grandpa was from Portugal and came over to ellis island , his FIRST job was to learn the language. It should be that way for everyone. "

jeff ff wrote on Sep 10, 2009 9:46 AM:

" I thought all illegals were paid under the table and didn't pay taxes of any kind. If this is true how could illegals pay into the system?

Alex, FYI I don't think we should give illegal aliens health care and you call me a Progressive Liberal. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 10, 2009 1:28 PM:

" To: jeff ff wrote on Sep 10, 2009 9:46 AM:

" I thought all illegals were paid under the table and didn't pay taxes of any kind. If this is true how could illegals pay into the system?

No they are paid quite legally and declare ten children a piece when filing their federal/state tax returns. I know this because I have a friend who files their taxes. Each year they receive a check for the full amount of deductions they pay into state/federal taxes and no one from this government cares to travel to Mexico to legitisize the children or the headcount. So it is a free pass for them each and every year and not a single one has been autited yet. "

Paul wrote on Sep 10, 2009 2:03 PM:

" Alihandero wrote on Sep 9, 2009 6:00 PM:

" Does anyone here believe that the liberal progressives will DENY any of this new health care for illegal aliens?

Show of hands... "

President Obama said yesterday that there was going to be NO HEALTH CARE for those in the country illegally. I can hear a faint "you're a lier."

I believe him and not you.

Oh, and by the way which hand do you want to see?

Better yet, how are you going to see it?

After all, technically speaking, my computer is not a camera and your computer is not a tv and... "

ANGIE wrote on Sep 10, 2009 2:54 PM:

" It actually surprised me that Obama didn't say there will be health care at least for the children of illegals. I just can't fully understand you people who would deny education, food, and health care to children of illegal aliens, no matter what country they're from. It's not their fault they're here illegaly. "

Deb wrote on Sep 10, 2009 3:41 PM:

" Alihandero - denied health care? Nope, Health Insurance Yup. "

Deb wrote on Sep 10, 2009 3:47 PM:

" WD - you may have afriend who comports like and serves criminals - (all in the name of a buck, i'm sure) have you ever thought about turning your friend in for knowingly preparing false income tax returns? You know, that's fraud. The type of fraud everyone pays their taxes to cover. Shame on you.

Nonetheless, there will always be the rule breakers - always, but it's not the norm... MOST illegal aliens are afraid of being caught and thus do not file false returns. They not only would have to obtain false ss numbers for themselves but the hoards of kids WD claims they use to file the returns.

Me thinks too many people believe the TV shows they watch. "

Skip wrote on Sep 10, 2009 5:36 PM:

" Federal law states illegals can participate in any such programs. So, though it may not be written in the bill, illegals will be able to participate. "

Alihandero wrote on Sep 10, 2009 5:56 PM:

" Well, I am sorry.

I confused one poster here: "jeff ff", with another similar individual with the moniker: "jeff."

My bad.

And as for answering my own question, liberal progressive Democrat President Obama in his speech last night said illegal aliens and (as a bonus) abortion both would not be covered in the Obamacare plan he presented.

No wonder why there was an outburst claiming: "You lie!"

Must have been a kooky racist... "

ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 10, 2009 6:08 PM:

" Paul you are dreaming if you really think the Obama administration is going to restrict medical care from illegal aliens. His new plan won't enforce this restriction and nothing he has done would restrict it. If he is saying he will restrict it he is a liar. Wake up. Just like he lied to you that he would withdraw troops from Iraq, yes Paul we are still there. Do we need a show of hands that he fed all the Democrats a great sales pitch during the election and is now doing whatever he wants like boozing it up with liberal racist Harvard professors and totally screwing up in Iraq and Afganistan. Jobs continue to be lost in this country, our rights are being eroded, and sadly it will only get worse. I know you will likely bring up Bush and all his faults, but how many months or years is that going to cover all of Obama's mistakes and broken promises, and yes direct lies to the public since he took over Bush's job. You can only blame the person you replaced for so long. "

Deb wrote on Sep 10, 2009 10:49 PM:

" This applies to health care reform - many seem to take that as health care but it's affordable health care "access" not health care which is performed by doctors.

HR3200 Page 143 for those keeping score at home, Lines 3 to 7:

SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

------------------------------

Health care won't be denied illegal aliens - there are already laws in affect which bar publicly funded hospitals (not all inclusive) for refusing service to those who can't pay or provide evidence of ability to pay.

But - it's certainly not cut and dry - wish it were. CA is a prime example of where problems occur - legal children, illegal parent or parents. Children cannot purchase health ins on their own - but will the parents be barred from purchasing on their behalf. This is exactly why the illegal alien issue needs to be address. "

Americantaxpayer wrote on Sep 11, 2009 5:27 AM:

" Angie! I fully understand your concern for the children’s health issues. It's the parents fault for dragging their children across our borders illegally. But the question still remains. Where do we put an end to the free hand outs that's reserved for American Citizens? We as a state and country can't afford supporting millions of illegal who are all receiving some form of assistance and aid. We need to take away all those benefits that drive these people to break our laws to come here. Denying these benefits would greatly reduce the illegal population across this country. Removing illegals from our schools will ease over crowding greatly and our own children will benefit from that policy with more face time with their teachers. These children are not being denied benefits. They can receive these benefits, schooling, and medical care in their own home countries. If they can't, then they need to spend their time protesting their government instead of ours for there needs. Everyone needs good quality affordable health care. Illegals should not be considered in this health care debate. Give them emergency care only, and then deport them back home! No more free rides! "

Deb wrote on Sep 11, 2009 10:31 AM:

" ToldYouSo - I know your response was directed at someone else, but I must point out the obvious. (At least to me and I'd purport many others.)

Anyone who believes that a President can alone get anything done once in office does not understand the office of President. Then to use that as a basis for a position is rather more delusional.

Most of us who vote for a President "know" that what we are voting on are his platforms - what he stands for and will attempt to achieve and work toward during his term - not what he will do because many know (especially if they took a civics class in HS) he has no power to act unilaterally and you are purporting that he does and calling him a liar to boot.

Health care will not be restricted - a health reform plan created by the government will.

IF - as purported by Wilson that a Czar or whatever you want to call the position will not follow the law, then it's Congresses job to take him/her to task.

(continued) "

Deb wrote on Sep 11, 2009 10:44 AM:

" (continued)

Medicare has pretty much the same language illegal aliens not covered you must be a citizen - no federal payment are allowed for illegal aliens.

Does medicare go beyond the law and allow payment for illegal aliens? The answer's no and it's even more foolish for a Congressionial representative to say that this is going to happen - which he did on Fox news.

As far as withdrawing from Iraq? What part don't you see happening? Unless you believed he'd say one day "begone troops in Iraq" and low and behold they'd be gone. He always said safety for the troops would come first. "

Angie wrote on Sep 11, 2009 2:48 PM:

" Americantaxpayer- you are greatly mistaken if you think that denying all or some benefits to illegals will make them leave this country. If you kick they're kids out of school, if you deny them food, if you make them live in shacks in the mountains, they will still stay here because it will still be a heck of a lot better that it is in their country. The United States will have to figure out who are here illegaly and physically round them all up (like they did to the Asian popularity during WWII) and drive, fly, ship them all back to their country. And guess what? They'll be back. So you can hold on to your little fantasy of a solution but I promise you it will NEVER happen. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 11, 2009 2:49 PM:

" Too much to say that won't fit here.

One point about pre-existing conditions. I agree that if something happens and you have to change insurance plans, then you should be able to regardless of pre-existing health problems. But I don't think if say you discover that you have lung cancer, have never had an insurance policy, then I don't think that the Insurance companies should have to give you a policy.

I saw on the news a good example of this. As some are trying to say that everyone should be required to have health insurance just like everyone is required to have car insurance. But think about it, if you have had 20 speeding tickets, 4 DUI's, do you really think that you will be able to get auto insurance? I sure would hate to have to pay those premiums. So would health care premiums be the same? The more you have had to use your policy the higher they get? Or do I get all of the LIBS to pay for me? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 11, 2009 2:50 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Sep 10, 2009 10:49 PM:

You are more than totally naive if you aren't aware a Social Security Card of better quality than the one you possess is simply as far away as Tijuana.

They and fake California I.D. and Driver's Licenses are a dime a dozen and more available than a good fine mexican beer. As for turning my friend in, he is doing nothing wrong, he is following our own IRS laws with the proven and proper documentation to back it up. As long as the illegals are willing to pay the price in Mexico to obtain these documents the game will go on.
These documents are so good our own government can't detect their illegitimate nature. The farmers and other employers are accepting them as legal documentation, so our laws are simply circumvented through forgeries. There will always be those who find loopholes to discredit whatever laws we put in place of immigration. That is why we should be proactive on what we can prove and remove them from this country immediately, regardless of family affiliation. "

Alihandero wrote on Sep 11, 2009 4:22 PM:

" Deb should read this in today's Sentinel online:

Lifestyle & Leisure (section)
Health negotiators focus on illegal immigrants
By ERICA WERNER

" They thought they'd settled the question of illegal immigration, but it came to the fore this week when Republican Rep. Joe Wilson shouted "You lie" at Obama during his speech Wednesday. Obama had said illegal immigrants wouldn't be covered under his health plan.

Senators said that's forced the committee to work on provisions verifying legal status before an individual can get coverage.

...Many Democrats fear that verification procedures keep legal residents from getting insurance, and in the House, they rejected Republican attempts to add verification requirements to the House health care bill.

The negotiators put off extensive discussion of the illegal immigration issue until Monday and said aides would be working on language on that and abortion over the weekend."

So Obama in his speech DID LIE or at the very least did not tell the complete truth.

If it were evident in HR 3200 as Deb would like us to believe, why all the fuss to put in language to cover Obama's wild claim on no illegals and no abortion? "

Paul wrote on Sep 11, 2009 5:41 PM:

" Skip wrote on Sep 10, 2009 5:36 PM:

" Federal law"

So now we have a federal law. God, we haven't passed a bill and we already have a federal law.

Any undocumented person can buy insurance of any kind if they have the money. Are you mad that they can afford to buy health insurance and you can't??

They work in the lowest paying jobs and you are upset because they can afford something you can't??

The only people they show on TV during these "staged" meetings are old, angry, white people. And most of they have their story wrong. They believe all the garbage from rush and hannity and of course the insurance and pharmaceutical companies that are REALLY LOOKING out so that NO ONE pulls the plug on grandma and grandpa, right?

Mostly everyone else can now see the truth. And that is why the majority of the AMERICAN PEOPLE are ready to push foward with this health plan. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 11, 2009 7:26 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Sep 8, 2009 10:34 PM

I hear your contention, but until once and for all the employer refuses to hire illegals will there be any change in all this disappointment, heartache and costly nightmare for the American Taxpayer.

I did not contend that all illegals collected their taxes, but all illegals at one time or another receive some type of care or assistance that is provided by the tax dollar. Section-8, WIC,Welfare, Commodities, Child Care, Health and Welfare, somewhere they plug in and receive something.

Rest assured, the quickest way to benefits is through their own friends receiving them and telling them what to say to who to get on the line to recieve something.

I've seen too many EBT using mothers with their very healthy looking counterparts and their two baskets of groceries, not to understand the flim and the flam of this program. They cheat from the moment they enter this country and until they are planted in our soil, after the car wash to pay for their funeral. It has become a long held tradition among many families now. "

ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 11, 2009 7:44 PM:

" Responding to Deb, I appreciate your comments and viewpoint and in many ways agree with what you are saying. However, Presidents can act with Executive Orders and as Commander in Chief he can easily move troops around anytime he wants, just like Bush did. In fact, I'm not even saying I want him to pull troops out of Iraq or Afganistan. I am saying he ran for election on a platform claiming he would pull troops out along with a number of other issues where he simply has not done what he promised. If he said illegal aliens will not receive health care he is telling you a lie. They get health care every day in every state in every city anytime they want. He has done nothing to stop this and nothing in this current bill would stop this from happening. For him to say this bill doesn't extend to illegal aliens is politics at its best because illegal aliens are already being covered by all of our tax money with or without this new bill. That was more the point I wanted to make. "

ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 11, 2009 7:49 PM:

" .. continuing just a little bit more -- When Bush was in office his last term he did not have political control of the House and Sentate. Since we all learned in High School that the House and Sentate actually write the bills that are presented to the President then if Bush did such a terrible job it is likely in part due to the Democrat controlled House and Senate doing a terrible job on drafting intelligent legislation. Obama has the true luxury of being President at the same time his political party controls the House and Senate. Sadly, Obama, the House, and the Senate are not delivering on all their empty campaing promises and are continuing to lie to the public. I didn't support them yelling out that Obama is a liar and an inappropriate time... but he really is one like it or not. "

Deb wrote on Sep 11, 2009 7:53 PM:

" Watchdog - No, I'm not naive - I worked in the Public Accounting (read tax) industry for awhile. I know what's going on...

As for your excuses for your friend - that's a cop out . "I'm doing everything legal even if I know they're illegal."

Hand me some SS#'s I can check in a matter of minutes as to whether they are valid or not. AND, in the State of CA it's a misdemeanor to do what that person is doing.

Now... back to the topic - even "IF" they file and obtain a refund - there's still social security and medicare that they've paid into but will never receive. "

Deb wrote on Sep 11, 2009 7:56 PM:

" Ok, Alihandero - the bill is going to be cuff-link tight - now with the changes -guess we'd better go re-write medicare too, because of course what was currently in HR3200 was based on medicare language.

I'm just sure some democrat out there applying the law would have found some loophole to fund illegal aliens just to spite the American Public.

The fact that this gets so close to conspiracy just amazes me and really pushes me MORE left than I already am. "

Deb wrote on Sep 12, 2009 8:41 AM:

" I have never contended nor did the President nor many of the congressional representatives that they would never receive "Health CARE" - the point and I raised it in one of these few Health reform threads is that illiegal aliens will never be denied health care - health insurance funded by the government no. The worlds health reform and health care are not interchangeable.

Now - if you want to get technical - they can buy health insurance now - they will be able to buy it later - it won't be funded though with federal dollars.

They can currently get health care now and will also be able to get health care in the future. IF they don't have heath insurance which pays their claims and they can't pay and are routed to a emergency facility which cannot turn away anyone and the money is not somehow recouped, the taxpayers will pay at some level. County, State, Federal - which is how it currently works. Nothing will change on that arena UNTIL Illegal immigration occurs. "

Deb wrote on Sep 12, 2009 8:51 AM:

" Watchdog - I never said it didn't happen - it just doesn't happen on the scale which you purport. Every illegal alien does not come here to scam the system.

But, I do agree the issue of illegal aliens needs to be dealt with by our state and federal government.

I've said that in this medium repeatedly. But, none of our reps have the guts to bring forward any legislation that anyone is willing to stand by for fear of loss of votes, loss of lobby money etc.

Money - so much of everything is about money. "

Deb wrote on Sep 12, 2009 9:10 AM:

" Toldyouso - democrats given a majority in house/senate are like wet noodles trying to get out of a paper bag when it comes to being able to accomplish anything meaningful. It would be hilarious if it weren't so true. Many comedians have a wonderful time mocking a democratic majority. And, even though the realities often horrify me, humor is a good thing, even if it's poking fun at one's own political party.

While on the other hand, a minority republican congress is fully capable of getting what they want.

It's interesting dynamics...

Am I happy with my party? Not entirely - does that happiness rest at the Presidents feet? a bit, but not entirely.

But, again, I'm not going to pass judgment 8 months into a nightmare. In 2004 I voted for Bush - yea me, a liberal as I'm oft referred. I wanted him to have the opportunity to clean up his mess. Silly me. "

opinion x wrote on Sep 12, 2009 2:32 PM:

" To Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 9, 2009 5:48 PM:

Regardless of benefit received from their working here, they are taking jobs legalized citizens could and would fill if given the opportunity.

Given the negative attitude you display against “illegal” immigrants, do you actually think the U.S would benefit from deporting all the “illegals”? And if so, why hasn’t the government really done anything about the issue on immigration?

I’m quite confident that if undocumented immigrants were deported to their native countries, we would add another complaint to our list of complaints: Food is so expensive.

Hint: who picks our fruits and vegetables? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 13, 2009 4:32 PM:

" To: opinion x wrote on Sep 12, 2009 2:32 PM:

Limit your resources and you limit possibilities. We have hundred's of thousands of Welfare people sitting idle all day doing nothing to earn their benefits.

If we deport the illegal immigrants we can import and entire workforce who will be willingly and able to pick fruits and vegetables or get off of Welfare.

Which in my eyes is a win, win, we set aside a few to watch all the children and the rest get a bus ride to the fields to work and labor for their benefits.

As for the price of fruits and vegetables they have been way to, reasonable for way to long. Secondly, how difficult would it be, to grow your own garden and tend to your own vegetables. Those too lazy to improvise might suffer a bit, but isn’t that on them?

So in reality you deal with two issues Welfare and Immigration resolving who is and isn’t legal in the country and who is or isn’t really in need of Welfare. That could save this state billions of dollars. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 13, 2009 7:34 PM:

" to opinion X
How about like in the OLD days, either students during the summer break, or even better legitimate migrant workers, which means only the worker and no one else is brought over, paid a fair wage and upon completion of the picking season, they return to THEIR home.

Don't tell me that kids can't work the fields, I did as a youth, it was nice to make some spending cash.

I have said it before also get rid of the "anchor" baby. If one of your parents isn't a legal U.S. resident, then neither are you. Too many people don't know how to interpret the law in regards to who is to be claimed a U.S. citizen or even the reason that a law had to be created. "

Dandre wrote on Sep 14, 2009 12:38 PM:

" Hey, ali
you mean all the Liberals like ALL doctors?
HealthCARE is part of the Oath that governs if the doctor administers healthCARE not the OBVIOUSLY in-humane mentality of the Neo-right. Praise God! "

Dandre wrote on Sep 14, 2009 12:46 PM:

" This has turned into 'we need to abolish Child Labor Laws???
You have got to be....................
You fill in the blank! amazing!!!!!!!!! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 14, 2009 6:41 PM:

" To: Dandre wrote on Sep 14, 2009 12:46 PM:

Please explain to me how kicking illegal parents out of our country will directly or indirectly affect child labor law?

Your rants and convenient sound bites fail once again to respond to any common sense argument regarding deportation of illegal immigrants.

What is it about the word illegal you don't get, dandre? There are legal methods by which to become a citizen in this country, it's not like it's not available through the proper channels.

As for labor laws for children they are already on the books. Placing a child in childcare being watched by other Welfare Parents is not my idea of breaking any child labor laws. It is utilizing otherwise dormant and nonproductive souls for a job that needs to be done.

Are the fruits and vegetables going to know who is picking them dandre? Do you have a private channel in which to let them know it is Welfare Parents instead of Illegal Immigrants picking them? The farmer's don't care as long as they have a labor force. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 14, 2009 6:48 PM:

" To: dandre following description is for your benefit, nowhere does it say a child labor law is broken: Fruit and vegetable pickers harvest fruit, vegetables, nuts and berries at farms, market gardens and orchards, and prepare produce for distribution.

None of the above requires the beakage of labor laws of any type much less child labor laws, dandre.

These fields in this area were harvested long before the present day field workers were imported from Mexico.. In fact that practice didn't even begin until the WW's began and then it was designed to be until the wars were over and no longer. The fact it has lasted this long should be appreciated by the illegals and they all should be deported and sent back home. When people can reside in this country for thirty years and still not speak english it is time for them to return home. If they don't care enough about the country to learn the language then what fruitful contribution can they be making to its heritage? "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 15, 2009 7:30 AM:

" Dandre, would you care to expand on the following because I for one don't understand where you are trying to go with this statement.

" Hey, ali
you mean all the Liberals like ALL doctors?"

And here I am today reading that doctors are saying the biggest fix to health care costs is to reduce malpractice charges. "

Paul wrote on Sep 15, 2009 1:53 PM:

" ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 11, 2009 7:49 PM:

"When Bush was in office his last term he did not have political control of the House and Sentate. "

That statement from you proves that you don't have to be a politician to lie.

He didn't have control the last TWO YEARS he was in office.

Many of you make it sound as if he was in office for ONLY TWO YEARS.

What did he do during the previous SIX YEARS??

Did he reform illegal immigration?

Did he reform health care?

Did he reform lying?

Did he reform anything?

Well, Cheney did reform the US Constitution and bush let him. Sorry I forgot that one. "

Dandre wrote on Sep 15, 2009 2:59 PM:

" Deb...excellent post "

Dandre wrote on Sep 15, 2009 3:45 PM:

" NHG.. ALL doctors take the Hypocratic Oath which mandates ALL doctors to provide care and do no harm.
Ali's insinuation that providing healthcare had to do with being Liberal........I'm not going to fast for you am I?
NOBODY is in favor of illegal-immigration but 'angry-white-vote' politics, an ADMITTED Republican tactic (see Prop 187), is backfiring because when you point fingers to blame 'segments' of society you had better make sure that that segment remains a small segment and 'movement-conservatism' is feeling the backlash from REAL conservatives and REAL Christians and REAL Patriots who have watched the 'dumbing-down' of the debate to not a debate at all but a yelling match and it ain't pretty.
Watch the many videos of the 'circular logic' as tea-baggers one by one yell something and when challenged, have NO CLUE about what they yelled.
I can see why y'all were so afraid of your kids being 'indoctrinated' by a 'stay in school' speech. "

Jethro wrote on Sep 15, 2009 4:18 PM:

" Paul,
You proclaim, whether it be right or wrong, that the only people complaining are white. Whether you want to admit it or not, white Christians founded this country and set it on the path to being the best place to live in the world... and if the country they founded is so bad, why are others leaving their homeland to come here? The liberal media, and people like you, paint whites (especially males) as evil and the root of all problems. People of all color are against big government, because they take from those who have worked legally for generations and give to those who are here illegally. I will tell you this, illegals immigrants are treated better in the US than any other country in the world. Ask yourself why the US is better off than the South American countries... and who is at the root of the US's success... and then you find the answer as to why people are upset! "

Dandre wrote on Sep 15, 2009 11:11 PM:

" Hey, NHG, I'm not sure what doctors you were reading about but......

A new study finds that a majority of physicians support the creation of a public health care option.
A Robert Wood Johnson Foundation (RWJF) study published in Monday's New England Journal of Medicine shows that 63 percent of physicians support a health reform proposal that includes both a public option and traditional private insurance. If the additional 10 percent of doctors who support an entirely public health system are included, then approximately three out of four physicians nationwide support inclusion of a public option. Only 27 percent support a private-only reform that would provide subsidies for low-income individuals to purchase private insurance.

And over 16000 doctors in another organization, are in favor of 'single-payer' but you stick with that newsmax tripe. "

Alihandero wrote on Sep 16, 2009 3:32 PM:

" Next, we will poll the nation's lawyers with this question:

"How many of you want a national law for tort reform?"

anyone...anyone...? "

ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 16, 2009 6:42 PM:

" Paul, you are entertaining, so for Bush's last two years the Democrat controlled Congress didn't do @#$%. I'm glad we agree finally. "

opinion x wrote on Sep 16, 2009 8:01 PM:

" To WF and NHG interesting responses, however I think even you know that your propositions are unrealistic.
If we have a health care program that doesn’t include “illegal” immigrants we will be spending more money in the long run. First, we have a portion of our “illegal” population who are not insured medically and therefore, use the ER for medical care. Why do you think our insurance premiums increase year to year? ER services are expensive, yet if we do not provide humans with medical care, then we will have to eat the bill and DEAL WITH IT.
Second, many employers buy insurance coverage for their workers and the larger the membership the lower the premiums. Let’s not fool ourselves, most of the immigrant populations arrive to this country in their prime years to work and in healthy condition (American Journal of Public Health, July). "

opinion x wrote on Sep 16, 2009 8:02 PM:

" In addition, be honest with yourself, do you really think you will see non-immigrants work the fields now a days?? U.S born individuals are not willing to work the fields for a number of reasons and employers actually prefer immigrant workers. Why you ask? It is more affordable to hire “illegal” immigrant workers, who receive poor pay, no benefits, as a result I doubt immigrants are really “taking” jobs away.

There is no simple answer, people who migrate to the U.S have always had a difficult time because they have no rights on the one hand and they don’t pay taxes on the other. Too often “illegal’s” are the scapegoats of our nations’ problems. The article (Wait a Second. Why Shouldn’t We Insure Illegal’s?)by Andrew Romano of Newsweek adds, “ People simply don’t want money going to people on the other side of the tracks.” I understand that you can’t put a price on health, yet we do and at the end of the day we will continue to debate the political aspects of it, instead of providing an ethical solution and that’s NO LIE! "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 17, 2009 11:20 AM:

" to opinionX, I take exception to what you say about the cost for illegals. If we got rid of all illegals, then our health care would go down. If we only brought migrant workers here, we would only have to pay for them, not the others in their extended family.

As for the farmers hiring illegals, not saying they don't, but if caught they should be imprisoned. Fined heavily, and enforced to pay those that worked for him fair wages.

Everything that I am saying here is do-able, and won't cost trillions of dollars. And it would be a small step, not the only step required, on the road to health care reform. But as I have stated that I am for health care reform, but just want to see it enacted in small steps that are cost effective, and not in some gigantic bill that nobody endorses 100%.

Obama has 3 more years at least as President, and he could work on health care the whole time, it doesn't all need to be pushed over night. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 18, 2009 2:37 PM:

" To: NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 17, 2009 11:20 AM:

The only plausible explanation for why Obama needs healthcare reform in the first year is he knows he is losing numbers, numbers equate to support, so without the support his healthcare reforms will sit idly in the Congress and Senate and will go nowhere, just like Bill and Hillary Clinton's.

But with the downfall of ACORN, President Obama has lost another lions share of support and will pay a price for that as well. I was so glad to see someone gather concrete proof of what those bad actors have been up to all along even back during the campaign.

What's that old saying you can fool some of the people some of the time but never all the people all the time. I think Obama is learning that lesson with every time Biden opens his mouth and every concession Obama makes to foreign powers. We lost a lot of security with the Presidents latest announcement but the one's who really lost are the one's in theatre fighting our wars as we speak. They no longer have that safety element covering them. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 19, 2009 3:01 AM:

" Why I must question would a world leader and commander In Chief give up a certain defense in areas close enough to drop those missiles. The reprecutions of this one are going to be felt from now through the downturn of time. It only causes me fear to think of the reprecutions over this stuff. "

Alihandero wrote on Sep 19, 2009 3:46 AM:

" Methinks there is a sly strategy behind Obama and his super-fast rush to get ObamaCare passed before this year's end.

Early next year, the liberal progressives will try to ram the 'Immigration Reform & Diversity Reconciliation Act of 2010' down our throats (my guess as to title).

It will make all illegal aliens in the U. S. of A. legal residents pending registration and paying a small fine.

Being they are now considered 'legal residents,' they will be eligible for the ObamaCare health package and Federal assistance credits with full taxpayer support.

Plus, since they remain poor but legal immigrants (strangers in a strange land) who have many needs but little income or education, they remain eligible for every suitable federal, state, and local government entitlement there is as well as existing public and private charitable donations of food, clothing, education, housing assistance, and so on.

Nobody, I mean nobody, could call Obama a liar on this clever legislative end run.

If that happens perhaps it’s time for me to head south, cross the border, and sell shave ices to the other expats in Cabo.

Darn glad yo hablo español! "

manuel wrote on Sep 20, 2009 5:31 PM:

" American tax payer I agree, they should also deport all the farmers getting welfare [subsidies] that way we can grow our own food and pick our food, they should have check points to check I.Ds to get rid of all aliens, for the only true American is an indian, "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 20, 2009 6:01 PM:

" To: opinion x wrote on Sep 16, 2009 8:02 PM:

No benefits for illegals, really, where have you been for the last thirty years, not at the EBT checkout that's for sure. How dare you say they have no benefits and they walk around with more gold in their teeth than is in the mint.

Perhaps you've never heard the term MEDI-CAL? "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 21, 2009 10:46 AM:

" to manuel,

I think that you need to check your facts, because even the Indians are not indigenous to the American continent. Read National Geographic and see how they tracked backed migration from DNA sampling.

But then I guess all of my liberal oponents out there will most likely say that N.G. is a far right cult magazine. (HUMOR!) "

Angie wrote on Sep 21, 2009 2:51 PM:

" How many times have I told you WDF??? Illegals are NOT ENTITLED TO FOOD STAMPS unless they are residents or citizens. Why don't you stick with topics you know a little something about like another blog that you overkilled with all your knowledge of war. "

manuel wrote on Sep 21, 2009 4:03 PM:

" Watch dog Don't blame the illegals, blame the politicians who gave them all the benefits, run for office an remove all the benefits, it could hurt some of your friends but who cares "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 21, 2009 5:22 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Sep 10, 2009 3:41 PM:

The tax person is not the one committing perjury, it is the one being taxed that signs the dotted line on the tax forms, not the person preparing the documents. Furthermore what resources does he have available to travel to Mexico and verify every dependant if the Federal Government doesn't do it, or even audit a single document.

Do we hang the Social Worker because a client provides false information on a Welfare Award?

Do we pull back a bond because someone lied to the Bondsman?

Do we fire the License Examiner at the DMV because they give an illegal immigrant a Driver's License? How do they verify the authenticity of their documents we can't even verify the authenticity of our President's Birth Certificate.

Do we bring a case against the paper carrier because the Sentinel has decided to no longer have a Sunday Paper? Will they reduce the price along with the service? Will the Saturday paper now cost a dollar instead of fifty cents since it is the last edition of the week? "

Deb wrote on Sep 22, 2009 6:56 PM:

" WDF - you're flat out wrong - read the State of Ca Ethics code for violation - it's a misdemeanor as well. And, I believe a social worker who knowingly assists someone to commit fraud is equally guilty.

Also - as Angie pointed out - non residents do not get food stamps -
Eligibility requirements were tightened in 1996 when Congress passed (and President Clinton signed) the welfare-reform law known as the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act. From then on, only citizens or legal immigrants, such as those with a Green Card, were eligible for federal benefits.

So, WDF - just because a person's skin is a bit different from yours - does not mean they're illegal - you make wide general sweeping assumptions. And, you're not alone - many people think most all the hispanics in this valley are illegal when in fact they're not, otherwise they'd not be at the EBT (assuming you mean the checkout counter). "

opinion x wrote on Sep 22, 2009 10:53 PM:

" To : Watchdog Fred wrote on Sep 20, 2009 6:01 PM:

It is interesting to notice that when other people had access to government subsidizing nobody said a word. HOWEVER, if “illegal’s” get Medi-cal or any other type of public assistance it is the end of the world. Please stop pretending our nation really wants to afford not have immigrants, unless of course you want to work out in the fields for them?

Oh, and a quick History lesson: Europeans were the first illegals – since 1492. I think even a 5th grader knows that. What is often not taught is that when Christopher Columbus landed in the Americas on Oct. 12, 1492 he arrived to a land that was already inhabited. There was a sense of “discovery” from one part of the world but it also led to the death and destruction of another. "

Deb wrote on Sep 23, 2009 11:04 AM:

" WDF - please note the word "knowingly" in my statement. You "know" what you share because your friend "knows", which implies she knowingly prepares a false return.

By your diatribe above, that means it's quite ok for employers to hire illegals because they present false documentation even though the employer knows or suspects it's false.

Can't have it both ways... "

ANGIE wrote on Sep 23, 2009 12:28 PM:

" RIGHT ON DEB! "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Sep 24, 2009 12:43 PM:

" to Deb, perhaps you may know more information about this then I do, which is zero.

Does an "anchor baby" qualify for welfare/food stamps/etc? If so, then who will be presenting those at the checkout? I don't think that the child will be. So to make a statement that an illegal isn't authorized those benefits, might be technically correct, but in practice might not be truthful. But if the "anchor baby" has no rights to any of those, then this whole scenario would never happen.

I have always been for them to round up the illegals and deport them, but I have also said that I am also all for them to arrest and penalize those that hire them. And if the farmers are knowingly hiring illegals, then they should pay the price. "

angie wrote on Sep 25, 2009 2:52 PM:

" NHG- we can get technical about alot of things but the BOTTOM LINE IS THAT ILLEGALS DO NOT GET CASH OR FOODSTAMPS! "

ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 25, 2009 6:24 PM:

" Angie your claim has been proven false countless times. "

Deb wrote on Sep 28, 2009 10:08 AM:

" NHG- as far as I know, the anchor baby, as you refer to is entitled to benefits, but only for that American citizen. Yes, technically someone of legal age must handle the affairs of that new citizen including spending money at the store for food, etc.

While the cost is great, in that there are so many illegal residents, the overall per child is small and in no way can allow a family to live the american lifestyle - so, multiple families live together, more children are born "US citizens and it continues...

I do believe you and I are as close to agreement as might be possible.

I read http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=646992 this, but have not stayed on top of it... But, immigration reform must be dealt with soon politics or no politics. The harm to our country is more than just food stamps, medical care, education and cash aid. "

Deb wrote on Sep 28, 2009 10:15 AM:

" Toldyouso - I'd be interested in your sources, please? "

ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 28, 2009 6:43 PM:

" Deb are you really saying there has NEVER been once confirmed case of an illegal alien getting welfare support or food stamps in this country??? "

ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 28, 2009 7:27 PM:

" Deb, here you go:

"According to research by Frosty Wooldridge, over $2 billion is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens every year; $2.5 billion is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens every year; $12 billion is spent on primary and secondary school education every year for children here illegally (and most cannot speak a word of English); $17 billion a year is spent on education for so-called "anchor babies"; and $90 billion a year is spent on illegal aliens for welfare and social services. Add all of the various costs to U.S. taxpayers for illegal aliens and the total is a whopping $338 billion each year."

I don't have time to do more research for you, but even if these are exagerated numbers they definitely total a lot more than $0 like you claimed. "

Deb wrote on Sep 29, 2009 9:01 AM:

" Toldyouso: I did not once say fraud has never happened. Fraud exists everywhere - but on the grand scale that many claim, I tend to believe that it's untrue.

I also stated that the cost for anchor babies was great but that on an individual basis no one is living a grand lifestyle. Although, life is made a bit easier when multiple families live together. This is eased and allowed primarily by slumlords.

Your first fact from your site is discounted and stated to be patently false on factcheck and is included with a rather lengthy chain email letter passed around on the internet.
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-of-illegal-immigrants/

Bottom line - illegal immigration is a problem, but until people know the facts, the focus, like this conversation will be on bickering rather than action. There is a problem.

Incentives need to be removed from the table and severe penalties need to be applied to those who provide employment. "

ANGIE wrote on Sep 29, 2009 2:02 PM:

" Told you so-Frosty Wooldridge?? Please. He's just another Limbaugh- full of hot air! Yes there has been many confirmed cases of illegals recieving some sort of welfare in this country and they got away with it for a short while because they falsified documents. I guess this makes them criminals but so are the border patrol agents who allow them to come into this country for some money. Why don't you come up with some REAL facts and research yourself because you don't know what your talking about. "

ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 29, 2009 6:14 PM:

" Angie I thought you said: "angie wrote on Sep 25, 2009 2:52 PM:

" NHG- we can get technical about alot of things but the BOTTOM LINE IS THAT ILLEGALS DO NOT GET CASH OR FOODSTAMPS! "

The real facts are that you made a complete false statement. I don't need to worry about frosty the snowman or if he was completely accurate in his statistics, but you really should research your statements before making them. The bottomline is that many illegals have received public assistance like it or not and your statement withouth any support at all is really the issue here. "

opinion x wrote on Sep 30, 2009 8:29 AM:

" TO: ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 29, 2009 6:14 PM:

And IF “illegals” received cash assistance or food stamps through linkage of their children who are U.S citizens what are you going to do about that? Are you planning on throwing a tantrum every time there is a discussion regarding immigration? "

angie wrote on Sep 30, 2009 12:13 PM:

" Toldyou so- If you must get technical and if it makes you feel better then let me clarify. Illegals are not eligible to recieve welfare but through fraud some have recieved it. There.
All better now? "

ToldYouSo wrote on Sep 30, 2009 6:54 PM:

" Opinion X, why don't you just give them all of your money, afterall they need it more than you do. If you have ten dollars left in your wallet that must be ten more than you need to have. "

ToldYouSo wrote on Oct 1, 2009 7:24 PM:

" Thanks Angie, that is a billion dollar difference. "

opinion x wrote on Oct 2, 2009 3:36 PM:

" It is amusing to see how people can get so disturbed when they are not directly benefiting from a situation. Focus on the subject at hand, “Obama must include illegals in California calculations”. Now, if some people were REALLY concerned about the “costs” they would realize that including “illegals” to health care would actually be less expensive. Instead one becomes sightless filled with frustrations of a broken system. If we are unwilling to compromise on this ethical issue, then we will continue to see the taxpayer pay the cost of ER services for those who do not have medical insurance. It’s time to realize that you’re not the only one living here and until a reasonable, humane measure is passed to give “illegal’s” that option, we will continue to pay the bill. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Oct 6, 2009 1:01 PM:

" to opinion x - tell me exactly why we should be paying for anybody's health bills, and stay away from medicare, etc, as those people most likely did invest some money into the system, isn't that what insurance is all about?

Why should anybody, legal or illegal, be able to go into a hospital and receive free care? My father didn't, he had switched from Blue Cross of one state to another state since he was working in the new state. He suffered a heart attack, and the insurance wouldn't pay, pre-existing condition. That bill broke him, he had to pay it, and it sucked up everything that he had ever saved for retirement.

So don't ask for any symphaty from me for supporting illegals. They get sick, then send them a bill, if they can't afford it, deport them immediately as a debtor and therefore they become a felon.

Before you or anyone jumps on me, remember I am all for arresting and fining those that hired the illegal to start with. "

ToldYouSo wrote on Oct 7, 2009 8:13 PM:

" Speaking of illegals, has Obama had to show his birth certificate to anyone in Congress... maybe he is illegal too. "




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